Cutlass issues... again. FIXED

[nebojsa_o]

Hey guys, it's me again... I'm not sure if this is related to the other problems I was having about a week or two ago. Here is a link to that thread.

 

http://www.w-body.com/showthread.php/46298-3100-TPS-MAF-O2-issues

 

And again, sorry about the length of this shit, I just figure more information, easier troubleshooting.

 

 

My mom took the car to work in the morning, about 1/4 tank of gas in it. She got there fine, and after work got going fine. All was well, she drove to a store, turned the car off, and went inside. When she came out about 15 minutes later, she started it, and didn't notice anything, pulled out of her parking spot, and the car died on her. Wouldn't restart. Some guy pushed her back into the parking spot, and she called me, and said it must have run out of gas. So I took some gas out of my motorcycle, and went there. :laugh: The gage was about 1/8th tank or so, and I didn't think that was the problem. I couldn't hear the fuel pump prime at all Put gas in anyways, and after cranking it a few times it started, and was running bad, like it was missing, shaking a lot.

 

I just recently did all the fucking around with the MAF, TPS, so I thought could it be related? I didn't have any tools with me, but I took the little plastic cap off the schrader(sp?) valve, noticed it was bubbling a bit, and hissing. Can that be replaced just like the valve stem on a tire or what?

Either way, it's very minor, and if I tap it, it stops. I pushed it in with a key, and sprayed some gas out, but it was coming out in bursts, like there was air in there. Then I tried to start it again, and it started, idled at about 1100 or so perfectly smooth, and came down to normal idling RPMS. I didn't want it to die in 2 minutes during rush hour, so I left it there, and drove my mom home.

 

About 3 hours later, me and my brother went there to pick it up, I get in, listen for the fuel pump, still can't hear it prime... Car starts, and runs perfectly fine all the way home, with temp guage a little bit higher than normal, about ~6 miles/10 kms. I pull up on the driveway, turn it off, and back to on to hear the pump, and sure as shit, I can hear it priming perfectly fine. Car starts, and runs good again. I have some shopping/running around to do, so I say fuck it, lets see if it'll do it again.

 

I take it for a bit of a drive, all is well, park at the store, walk in, come out about 15-20 minutes later, start it, and it's idling rough again, but not as bad. I watch it idle for a minute and then it gets worse, and idles like hell again. Then stalls out, and won't start again. I listen to the fuel pump prime, and it sounds like it's sucking air in, not quite, but not a normal sound, even though there is about 1/4 tank of gas in there. I "prime" it about 10 times before trying to crank. It starts that time, and dies about a second later. Same shit again. I'm sitting there for about half hour, try starting it, and it starts and is idling at about 300-400 rpms, shaking like hell, about to stall, so I give it a bit of gas to see if it'll stay alive, and after a few pumps of the pedal it gets up to 1500 rpms, smooths out, and rpms drop down to normal agian, it's purring like a kitten. I drive it all the way home, just fine, pull up on the drive way, park it, and it was fine all night, and it starts like a champ this morning. Even though I can't hear the fuel pump prime again.

 

Now, this happened one time about a year ago as well, but it didn't die, my mom limped it home because it was near by. I has the ICM tested and it was fine, coils were fine, and new plug wires, it idled like it was missing. Then I went to test fuel pressure, and relieved all the pressure out of that schrader valve, hooked up the guage, and pressure was good. Then I left the guage on there and started it, and it started and ran fine. Never the same problem since then.

 

Any ideas on what's going on with this Mistery Machine? Is the fuel pump partially dead? I'm not sure how it works, is it possible something in the tank is blocking it, or what? A bad ground or something that's making it not work sometimes? I'm not sure how it ran when I couldn't hear it prime at all. Anything you can think of, let me know. The injectors were fine about 3 weeks ago, I had the plenum off, and tested them all. Could the FPR do something like this?

Edited August 5, 2010 by nebojsa_o

[tornado_735]

I'm gonna vote on a dying fuel pump. Those bastards cause all sorts of hell when they're failing. It might have burned out from being run so low on fuel.

 

Next time it does it, take a dowel rod, hammer handle, or a 2x4 (something wood, so as not to cause damage), and give the fuel tank a few good slaps. If it starts working like normal, the it's the fuel pump for sure.

[Crazy K]

Can you do a fuel pressure test? It sounds like you are getting vapor lock, when you park the car the hot engine causes the gas in the fuel rail to boil and vaporize, which it would not do it is is under normal pressure.

Possible causes: leaking injector, a weak fuel pump, or a fuel leak. I would do a pressure test and see if the

 

the reason you can drive for anywhere from 10 seconds to a minute is that there is still some fuel puddled in the rail at the throat of each injector, and once the puddles are gone then you get vapor, which the injectors can't do shit with. thus the car runs, gets rough and stalls, and is often rough when restarting.

 

 

dieing or not, the fuel pump may still run like this forever weak and unable to run the car properly.

[nebojsa_o]

Hmm... The injectors weren't leaking 3 weeks ago, so I'm guessing it's not them. However, that little schrader valve on the fuel rail does leak a touch, more like bubbling, but it's so tiny, I'm not sure. Can that be replaced like the one on a car tire or does the whole rail have to be replaced?

 

And When I put the engine back together 3 weeks ago, on first start up I noticed the FPR was a little bit wet, but I thought it was something I sprayed near there when I was cleaning the LIM off. Maybe it's leaking fuel? I didn't see anything yesterday, but then again, fuel will evaporate quickly in a hot engine bay... I'll be doing a pressure test this afternoon. I was gonna do it now, but I can't find the guage, and my brother used it last, so I'll have to ask him where it is when he gets home.

 

I'll let you know...

[Crazy K]

you could be correct. i don;t know if the valve can just be replaced, but it probably can... though you should wiggle it in and out to make sure it is seated before replacing it... and yes, it coul dbe a bad fuel pressure regulator. pull the vaccum line off and see if there is gas in it.

[AL]

I have a spare 3100 fuel rail with injectors... Do you want it?

[nebojsa_o]

I have a spare 3100 fuel rail with injectors... Do you want it?

 

Thanks for the offer, but I don't think I need it, at least not yet. But if I do, I'll let you know.

 

Sorry about lack of new info, I couldn't get ahold of a fuel pressure guage, but I'll see if I can borrow one, and if not, I'll go buy the fucking thing. Damn Crappy Tire wants $70 for it...

[AL]

You dont have an Autozone near you? They do tool rentals...

[mediabandit]

You dont have an Autozone near you? They do tool rentals...

 

 

We don't have Autozones in Canada.

Canadian Tire will rent you the tool as well, but you have to put a deposit down in the full amount of the selling price.

[White93z34]

Same way with auto parts stores here, rent the tool for free once you get a refund, or just keep it.

 

That said I sure as hell wish I could get Kraft Dinner and Brake pads at the same store

[GOT2B GM]

 

That said I sure as hell wish I could get Kraft Dinner and Brake pads at the same store

 

 

HAHAHA

 

We have PartSource as well , they also loan tools with a deposit. No KD though.

[Regal_GS_1989]

We don't have Autozones in Canada.

Canadian Tire will rent you the tool as well, but you have to put a deposit down in the full amount of the selling price.

I've always found the Rental deposit to be more then the full amount of the selling price. I borrowed a puller, which they sold for 60$ and had to put like a 90 dollar deposit on it. Made no difference to me, but I guess it's to keep people from just keeping the rental tools.

[1990lumina]

I've always found the Rental deposit to be more then the full amount of the selling price. I borrowed a puller, which they sold for 60$ and had to put like a 90 dollar deposit on it. Made no difference to me, but I guess it's to keep people from just keeping the rental tools.

 

I dunno why anyone would ever want to keep a rented tool - most of them are half fucked anyways

[nebojsa_o]

I did try renting it with no luck. They don't have anything like that to rent... I was sort of shocked, it's a fucking guage, but no... Canadian Tire or Part Source.

 

Today I fixed that small leak on the fuel rail, and drove the car around, everything was going well. Then I came home, parked it, went inside and came out about half hour later (sort of like last 2 times it did that) started it up, and it was idling all bad again. Something to do with getting it warmed up, and trying to restart it while it's still warm... After I let it cool off fully, I went back out, and it started and ran perfectly fine. I'll see if I can get it to do that again tomorrow, and then I'll try to unplug some sensors and see if anything obvious happens.

[tornado_735]

If your fuel pressure checks out, my next guess (based on the fact that it runs like shit when warm) would be a crank position sensor.

[1990lumina]

Neb will hang himself if it's the CPS again

[nebojsa_o]

By the balls...

[Crazy K]

CAM SENSOR?

 

 

no... after the car was run and warm, and then parked for half an hour... YOU NEED TO REMOVE THE SHRADER VALVE COVER ON THE FUEL RAIL, PRESS IN ON THE PINTLE, AND CHECK FOR VAPOR.(warning, keep a rag handy, it may spray) If vapor lock is your problem gaseous fuel vapor will come out before liquid fuel. If you get gaseous vapor... change the pump.

 

 

BOSCH makes GOOD pumps for our "pre-modular fuel assembly cars. Chriswhite93Zed34 will agree.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Crazy K

[nebojsa_o]

He means Crank Position Sensor. The one that was a pain in the fucking ass to change about 2 years ago.

 

I just drove the car around for about 20 minutes or so, and parked it on the driveway, and I'm going outside in about 15 minutes to turn it on, and see if it's acting up or if it'll pretend everything is ok again...:laugh: Should I try to see about the fuel vapor before I try starting it again, or does it not matter?

[Crazy K]

He means Crank Position Sensor. The one that was a pain in the fucking ass to change about 2 years ago.

 

I just drove the car around for about 20 minutes or so, and parked it on the driveway, and I'm going outside in about 15 minutes to turn it on, and see if it's acting up or if it'll pretend everything is ok again...:laugh: Should I try to see about the fuel vapor before I try starting it again, or does it not matter?

 

Either/or. actually would make the most sense after the car stalls, cause then you KNOW the issue is present.

 

I remember the crank sensor dilemma. I've advised that when you replace that (and any other sensor that slips in place with an O-ring) that you should coat the sensor and o-ring with dielectric grease. makes it simple to pull in the future. It seems to me that carbon coking tends to bind up the O-ring causing the issue.

[nebojsa_o]

Well it sort of did it... It started right up, and idled a bit lower than it should, you could hear it, and then about 5-10 seconds later it fixed itself... Fuck I hate when shit fixes itself. I wish it would just fucking break and not start, then at least I'll know if I fixed it or not. I don't wanna throw parts at it when I won't even know if it's fixed... Damn random bullshit!1

 

BTW, it is a bit colder outside today, the last few times it was pretty hot out... I'll let it idle on the driveway, since I don't wanna go drive again. Then I'll turn it off, and try starting it after 5 minutes or something...

Edited May 20, 2010 by nebojsa_o

[Crazy K]

Well it sort of did it... It started right up, and idled a bit lower than it should, you could hear it, and then about 5-10 seconds later it fixed itself... Fuck I hate when shit fixes itself. I wish it would just fucking break and not start, then at least I'll know if I fixed it or not. I don't wanna throw parts at it when I won't even know if it's fixed... Damn random bullshit!1

 

BTW, it is a bit colder outside today, the last few times it was pretty hot out... I'll let it idle on the driveway, since I don't wanna go drive again. Then I'll turn it off, and try starting it after 5 minutes or something...

 

this problem = WORSE when hot outside. Face it, all the signs are there. You need a pump.

[nebojsa_o]

Well I started it 5 mins after it was turned off, and it idled like shit, so I turned it off. I did the fuel thing, and there was no vapor, just shooting fuel out. Then I started again, it ran like ass, and slowly got better, and fixed itself. If all those signs are pointing at a pump, I'll gladly replace it, I don't mind, I just figured if the pump was bad, it'd do it all the time, or it wouldn't drive perfectly for a while and then get bad after a restart, it would also run shitty while just driving around if the pump can't keep up... Well I gotta take off again, I'll let you know if anything new shows up.

[Crazy K]

Well I started it 5 mins after it was turned off, and it idled like shit, so I turned it off. I did the fuel thing, and there was no vapor, just shooting fuel out. Then I started again, it ran like ass, and slowly got better, and fixed itself. If all those signs are pointing at a pump, I'll gladly replace it, I don't mind, I just figured if the pump was bad, it'd do it all the time, or it wouldn't drive perfectly for a while and then get bad after a restart, it would also run shitty while just driving around if the pump can't keep up... Well I gotta take off again, I'll let you know if anything new shows up.

consistent with a pump providing low pressure, or just having leak down. when the car is hot and turned off, the heat from the engine boils the gas in the fuel rail, and the pressure in teh fuel rail drops and is low enough to allow the liquid to boil into a gas. the car can still seem to run fine even with lower pressure...

[Brian P]

I'd be pissed as balls if I had to drop the tank, only to have the problem reoccur. Find a fuel pressure tester before going there. Ken has the symptoms spot-on though...

Edited May 21, 2010 by Brian P