Penglii Posted October 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 just remembered: you have the modded G1, so i can actually mail you a spare EEPROM and you mail back the one you have in ATM when it gets there, that way if it needs to be driven, it's at least possible. That sounds like a great idea! Do you still have my address, or should I PM it to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 uhh....PM, because i'm not entirely certain... it's probably still in paypal, but ya know.... safe > sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 Good call... PM sent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo v-sick Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 Anybody have any idea why the GM#12561462 (stock Vette LS1/LS6 injectors) I received would be flowing so much more than their rated spec? The injectors are just fine. The BPC should be set bewteen 74-78 then the fine tuning can begin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2010 FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!! Got the new chip from Robert with new settings for the new injectors.... got it in the car. Makes things WORSE instead of better. Now the Pulse Width is excessively low low even in open loop and under throttle load. Let things get into closed loop and it was just a total horrorshow... the BLM quickly dropped to the floor! Reset everything and the same thing happened. With the old chip the car would still idle till the cows come home, now it actually dies eventually. Upside is there is still never any raw fuel smell... so changing the injectors was definitely a good thing. Going to try changing the oil tomorrow morning to see if it's the gas-fouled oil that is somehow contributing to these problems. But in general... WTF?!!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo v-sick Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 (edited) What is the BPC set at? I have had good success with a BPC of 78 and this style injector.. Once it idles good, lock open loop and start tuning with the wideband... Edited October 24, 2010 by Turbo v-sick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 What is the BPC set at? I have had good success with a BPC of 78 and this style injector.. Once it idles good, lock open loop and start tuning with the wideband... I don't have a wideband setup, I should get one since it would be very helpful to me... but I'm not currently able to do so. RobertISaar has been helping me with the tuning from afar (with his mad skilz), his previous tune was stellar before the injectors failed. I've been gathering my data from a Tech-1 scantool... not an ideal tuning aid but I'd imagine it's WAY better than nothing. I don't know what excactly he set the BPC at in the tunes he mailed to me that I installed today, but in the main tune it might be 70 or so... as guessed at via the data presented in posts #167 and #168 of this thread. If the value was set too low this time, wouldnt I be running too lean instead of even richer than ever?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo v-sick Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 If the value was set too low this time, wouldnt I be running too lean instead of even richer than ever??Yes that is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Then where is this extra fuel coming from? I'm now running a chip with the a BPC that might be slightly too low... but the symptoms of Uber-Richness got even worse. I would think that running leaner then necessary would at least give me an increase in injector pulse rate and BLM... instead they both gravitate to horrifyingly low numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo v-sick Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Then where is this extra fuel coming from?I'm now running a chip with the a BPC that might be slightly too low... but the symptoms of Uber-Richness got even worse. I would think that running leaner then necessary would at least give me an increase in injector pulse rate and BLM... instead they both gravitate to horrifyingly low numbers. Do not trust the stock narrow band. It will lie to you quicker than someone who owes you money. To run larger than stock injectors you will need a wideband o2 and the ability to burn your own chips. Datalog and email it to your tuner. He can modify the bin file an email it back to you. You burn the chip and test drive. Repeate the process till the tuner is satisfied... It's really that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Rain stopped, so I could change the oil and do some more testing. Oil change, while needed, had no effect on the situation. With the new chip (possibly overcompensating for the injector size) things never stabilize... and the pulse width seems somewhat too low across the board (open loop, closed loop idle and closed loop with a little throttle). Nothing ever stabilizes and the idle hunts worse than ever. I guess the pulse width never gets down to 0.3 anymore... but instead the car just dies. Right before it dies the BLM hits the floor... so something is causing the o2 to read ultra rich and it's just shutting the injectors down to compensate for it. Until it dies it's just the INT that keeps hunting... the BLM stays between 128 and 125 until (as far as I can tell, its hard to get good Tech1 readings as the car is shutting itsef off) right before the car dies when the INT just drops like a boulder taking the BLM with it and then suddenly there's no fuel even though it's reading rich. Brand new o2 sensor by the way... With the lowered fuel constant it seems to starve itself of fuel rather than with the old chip (set for 26# injectors) where it would stabilize and run like crap but still run and not hunt. I drove it around the block, moved it to be in a better place for an oil change, and it just hunted and surged (up and down, alternating) and was barely driveable at all there was so little control. I think maybe I'll try putting the old chip back in and see if it at least goes back to the original crappyness... at least that was stable horribleness. I really wish I had a clue as to what direction to go here and what to examine next... I am very much at a loss here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Do not trust the stock narrow band. It will lie to you quicker than someone who owes you money. To run larger than stock injectors you will need a wideband o2 and the ability to burn your own chips. Datalog and email it to your tuner. He can modify the bin file an email it back to you. You burn the chip and test drive. Repeate the process till the tuner is satisfied... It's really that simple. Duly noted... and I'm doing my best with what I got at the moment. Trying to play the hand I've been dealt so to speak. I realize that the narrowband o2 sensors are rediculously innacurate... but I don't see how that explains everything here... like why it only ever reads too rich & only ever bounces around between too rich and way too rich (instead of the usual behavior of bouncing lean/rich to find a proper configuration). I'm also not sure how it would explain why a lower fuel constant would give me lower pulse rates during open loop (with BLM and INT locked at 128 and presumably not using the o2 sensor) than the higher fuel constant I was using before. Shouldn't that be roughly the same either way? I feel that there should be clues in what I'm seeing that could point me towards what is wrong... since maybe it's a physical problem that I'm overlooking and not just a tuning problem that a W/B would solve easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 (edited) OK... more test results for my online notebook. LOL Pulled out the brand new o2 sensor... noticed some black powder on it... physical proof that the richness the o2 is reading is truely happening? Rented a fuel pressure tester again... Pressure is fine, holds pressure like a champ. This tells me that my injectors and fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump are likely functioning fine and not the cause of my running rich. Looked more closely at my MAP readings... key-on/engine-off it matched my barometer perfectly. Pulling 40kpa at idle, which seems normal enough. Cannot locate any vacuum or exhaust leaks. Exhaust is smokey, but the color and smell (or lack thereof) are not giving me any clues. IAC looks clean. EDIT: Put the 26# tune back in place... the good news is that it runs, with this tune, identically to the way it ran before with this tune. The bad news is I still have no idea why a lower fuel constant would make everything (even the pulse width during open loop) WORSE instead of better? I have literally exhausted the list of things I'm presently knowledgeable enough to check... Edited October 24, 2010 by Penglii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruktosk Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 Pulling 40kpa at idle, which seems normal enough. This seems low. Shouldn't this read higher? 40 kpa is ~11 inHg. Isn't 29 inHg what it's supposed to read at idle? That'd be ~98 kpa... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 (edited) mine has been reading 16 to 18 Hg of vacuum at idle. 18 Hg = ~ 41 kPa ~ -8 psi ~ .8 volts from the MAP Edited October 25, 2010 by Garrett Powered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo v-sick Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 The symptoms you describe sound like a lean condition. Since you can swap out chips and get noticeable difference lets assume it's tune related for now. You start the car cold and let it run. Since lean is hot I would guess it's in closed loop within minutes. After it hits closed loop the computer senses the lean condition and freaks out. It adds fuel to compensate for the lean condition but has no way other than to o2 to know how much it's adding. The o2 is only fairly accurate around 600 degrees F. So any colder or warmer than that is not very accurate at all. Since lean is hot and rich is cold you have a very fine line with the closed loop operation and the tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 But it's not ever adding fuel... it's taking fuel away by reducing the pulse width of the injectors. With the tune for 26# injectors it's reducing the pulse width by excessive amounts. With the tune for Stock injectors it's (naturally) reducing the pulse width by even more. and then the weird part... with the tune for HUGE injectors... it freaks out big time and the INT, BLM and pulse width all drop to their lower limits and it shuts the car off. If it was adding fuel for a lean condition why would my injector pulse rates always be super super low?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruktosk Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 mine has been reading 16 to 18 Hg of vacuum at idle.18 Hg = ~ 41 kPa ~ -8 psi ~ .8 volts from the MAP I must be thinking of something else. Probably another engine. Sent from my HTC Magic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo v-sick Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 Relying on the stock o2 for accurate fuel trim is going to give you a headache. I am pretty sure the o2 is taking you for a ride here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 Relying on the stock o2 for accurate fuel trim is going to give you a headache. I am pretty sure the o2 is taking you for a ride here. I'm gonna stop being so hard-headed and admit that you are probably right. I owe you an apology for my attitude these past couple of days... I'm sorry for that. I keep arguing with you because I want to imagine there is an easier solution... but I guess I can choose to keep stressing myself out chasing after shadows in the dark... or I can calm down, figure out how to continue to get around without a car for the foreseeable future, and do things the right way for a change. I guess I should start saving my pennies for a W/B o2 + controller w/Narrow Band Emulator... do you have any recommendations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 I got an extra BRAND NEW innovate wideband and controller that I could sell. they are $180-$200 new and I had it installed on my tgp for a minute. I thought it was broken out the box, but it was a problem with the WB patch in the tune and I didn't know this, so I kept buying new ones. the sensor and controller are fine. I would probably sell it for $140-$150 shipped just to save you some money. I could also use it on my black tgp later, but I actually have 2 extras. so I wouldn't mind getting rid of one of them. ... and don't worry about being hard headed, I have MANY of the EXACT same questions and concerns but can't word it as good as you can. so this thread you started is directly helping me with my car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 I got an extra BRAND NEW innovate wideband and controller that I could sell. I assume you are referring to the Innovate LC-1? That does seem to be the gold standard in wideband controllers... I assume there is a way to run that so that one of the analog data leads plugs/splices into the OEM narrowband o2 sensor so that I can get the wideband data I need... and the car can get the accurate narrowband style output that it expects? I was looking at getting this kit (http://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-3796-Complete-Wideband/dp/B001QFH2S6) which includes a gauge and the LC-1 for $190. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted October 25, 2010 Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 whats the cheapest you can find one of those gauges? figures that this year you can buy the gauge with it for cheaper than without one last year. I saw the prices go down some between the first and last one I bought. one I bought for $210 I think, then found one for $170 later, although I cant remember for sure what I paid for shipping. it's good to have the gauge with it for sure. although its tricky to get the gauge/NB/ and the WB (through the ECM) to work all together at the same time without modding the wiring and funky little 2.5mm jacks they use. Ken wired one up in the 88 when he had it so it can be done, but the way they made it, you either put the signal to the gauge or to the ECM unless you do something not in the instruction manual. my PLX devices WB has a straight forward way to wire everything up but I don't like the gauge as much as the innovate one. it seems a little off. ill sell it to you for like $120 if you can find an innovate gauge for cheap. I want one too. the little blue digital gauge in the 88 is very fast data refresh rate and looks the same as the log in TP. like maybe the PLX is done in tenths of a second while the innovate gauge and ECM is in hundredths. I don't know. they are both inexpensive and good. otherwise you would have to pay hundreds more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penglii Posted October 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 It looks like the gauge (innovate 3793 for the blue, 9794 for red) runs just over $80 shipped at minimum... that's a pretty hefty kit discount they are offering, wow... Yeah I'm wondering how all the wiring is going to play out... but I've already overcome a bunch of learning curves with this car since buying it in May, it's about time I get wiring class over with. I don't yet have a laptop set up with tunerpro either, but I'm slowly working on that... with both USB and serial ports built in if I'm lucky and find the right old laptop at my Dad's over Thanksgiving next month... Right now I'm just monitoring things with a Tech-1... A nice tool for sure but not quite as useful as it ought to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 I can wire one of those widebands blindfolded by now I started out with a cheap craigslist laptop. always used the USB though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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