HELP! Engine Cradle Question

[wickedbuick]

My cradle is rusted out around all the bushings and I was concerned about it "falling out" one day.

 

I have picked up another cradle with far less rust but a little more than comfortable so I cut some steel plates and welded them over the top to give a nice clean piece of metal to mount to. I have some great pictures of the process if anyone wants to see them. Turned out real nice. I only did this to the fronts as they seemed the worst. I got new bushings for the front as well. The rear bushings looked OK on the "new" cradle.

 

SO MY QUESTION: My engine and transmission are already out for other work and I was removing the old cradle and the front bolts came out OK. The rears I had some issues with. I used PB Blaster on them and went back and forth while waiting so I wouldn't heat them up too much. One rear bolt came out OK after that. The last one SNAPPED OFF!!!! So I was looking at the little cup with threads in it which the bolt is snapped off in. It looks as though there is a little access panel on the vertical edge of the firewall close to the bolt location. Also looks like I could cut a small area of the firewall to get the piece with the broken bolt out.

 

If I do this I could try to get the stuck bolt out and put the "cup" back in. I would prefer to get a new one or a used one from a junk car if possible though. Is this odd piece something I can order? I also thought maybe a grade 10.9 nut and washer. I could tack weld the washer to the nut and go with that if I have to.

 

So I need some input on this and what sounds the best way to do this.

 

Thanks!

 

Deia

[wickedbuick]

Ok so I don't know what to do. Here are some pics of the problem: The first pic is the front of the firewall on the drivers side. The second is from the bottom. I tried to drill the bolt out and use an easy out. Didn't think it would work and it didn't. Third pic is the little cover taken off the passenger side firewall and you can see the threaded section sticking up. It has a little steel cage welded around it too to hold it in since its not welded down itself. I feel so bad about this as I'm not sure where to start! So can someone help me out with this one??

Edited May 8, 2010 by wickedbuick

[wickedbuick]

I thought about cutting the little "window" open further and trying to grind the metal cage off the threaded cup. Not sure where to start.

[superdan333]

I HATE RUST!! Man that sucks. I had one in our shop do that one day, there was actually a service bulletin on the big washer rotting off; so the recall was to put new washers (with a rust inhibitor) and new bolts. One day thought I had one old one break off trying to get it out. I actually split the retainer for the cage nut with the torch and bent it back to get the cage nut out. Then installed a new nut. If you put the bolt up through the hole and then put a lock washer on the bolt on the inside of the pocket - before the new nut - when you tighten it with an air gun the lock washer will stop the nut from spinning without having to hold it with a wrench. Let me know how ya make out, and sorry man that really sucks, too bad all of our cars didnt come from arizona!

[wickedbuick]

Thanks Superdan Does anyone have a part number for the cage nut? Is that the proper term for it? I would love to order one from the dealer.

 

Whats the best way to get the old one out? My car has never had this recall performed. Wish it did cause this sucks. Wonder how the dealer swaps them out....

Edited May 8, 2010 by wickedbuick

[xtremerevolution]

Got your PM. I would definitely weld up a nut and a washer if you can't find that piece you're looking for.

 

Its amusing that this thread is full of owners of modified regals.

[Crazy K]

there is a procedure for replacing that nut in all the service manuals. Basically they tell you to use an air hammer to knock one side of the cage loose an pull the old nut out through the hole you have pictured. stuck a new nut (call a dealer?) in and jamb the cage down with a C clamp and install the new bolt.

 

 

HOWEVER>>>>> I broke a bolt on my 92 Lumina, it was the rear passenger bolt and I instead got a good used nut from a j/y car and cut my own access hole though the firewall. I had to pull back the carpet and make a 3 sided hole with a cutting disc on a grinder right above the bolt. Then I bent the tab up for access. the hole was probably 3"x3" and allowed full access... Once the new nut is in, the cage is broken loose, the new bolt is in.... etc etc etc..... I bent the tab back in place and sealed the cut seams with RTV. lasted the rest of that cars life and I would do the same if I had to again.

[wickedbuick]

I might do the welded washer/nut if I can't get a replacement from the deal or a yard. So did you cut through the interior wall to get access or the engine side? I think you were talking about the interior since you said the carpet was pulled back. That does seem like an easy way to get to it. So did you use the air hammer to get the cage off I assume? After the replacement is in did you tack weld the cage back in?

[Crazy K]

I might do the welded washer/nut if I can't get a replacement from the deal or a yard. So did you cut through the interior wall to get access or the engine side? I think you were talking about the interior since you said the carpet was pulled back. That does seem like an easy way to get to it. So did you use the air hammer to get the cage off I assume? After the replacement is in did you tack weld the cage back in?

 

interior side, yes.

 

I actually got the cage off by sticking a bolt though the frame so it was against the nut and broken off bolt, and jacked the car up by the bolt with a floor jack. pop and the spot welds broke and it was all pulled out through the access hole in the firewall.

[wickedbuick]

interior side, yes.

 

I actually got the cage off by sticking a bolt though the frame so it was against the nut and broken off bolt, and jacked the car up by the bolt with a floor jack. pop and the spot welds broke and it was all pulled out through the access hole in the firewall.

 

Ok sounds good. I imagine that you welded/fastened down the cage again right? If not then I could get to it from the access hole in my last picture and not cut anything. I think going from the interior will be easier possibly and definetely if I have to weld the cage back down. Whats your take on a nut welded to a large washer if I can't get a original replacement? I don't want to do something unsafe as this is a very important part for my safety and further damage to my baby

[wickedbuick]

UPDATE:

 

OK I know its been a while but I have been slammed with family issues that I missed work unpiad and increasing my PC repair/upgrade business to make up for it. Anyway, I started working on repairing the broken bolt. I tried jacking it up to pop the cage loose like Ken said but it just lifted the car! lol I drilled a hole from the exterior side through that little access window so I'd have a reference point inside. I cut an access hole and it is right about center with the brake pedal for reference. Here is the pic:

 

 

I just need to break that cage off and remove the nut. I was able to order a replacement from the dealer and I can post the part numbers up for that tomorrow along with pics. They appear to have updated the design on them.

[wickedbuick]

Also the replacement cradle had some rust still but not as bad as mine. Here is the replacement cradle on the passenger front:

 

 

 

I cut these plates. One for each side and welded them on. I then painted the whole thing with about 10 coats of flat black and 6 coats of flat clear. Maybe I can slow any new rust down. I also know that the plates will drop everything but only by about a 1/16 of an inch. Otherwise I don't see this being an issue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crazy K]

I see... Try jacking up on it just enough to give it a little pressure (not too much, you don't want it to shoot out!!!!) and using a chisel and hammer to attack the cage. just to make sure... when I did it I had the entire weight of the car on the bolt. If you were contacting the body with the jack I could see that not working. Plus you can weld the cage back in once you have the new part in.

 

those holes look a little rough... but alot better than before. Here's a tip: moisture gets trapped where the bushings go, so no matter how much paint you will eventually get rust again. On my cars I coat that area with grease to displace moisture. I actually coat the bushings with silicone/dielectic grease, and overlap that to the frame. I'ms suggesting you should do the same.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Crazy K

[wickedbuick]

I see... Try jacking up on it just enough to give it a little pressure (not too much, you don't want it to shoot out!!!!) and using a chisel and hammer to attack the cage. just to make sure... when I did it I had the entire weight of the car on the bolt. If you were contacting the body with the jack I could see that not working. Plus you can weld the cage back in once you have the new part in.

 

those holes look a little rough... but alot better than before. Here's a tip: moisture gets trapped where the bushings go, so no matter how much paint you will eventually get rust again. On my cars I coat that area with grease to displace moisture. I actually coat the bushings with silicone/dielectic grease, and overlap that to the frame. I'ms suggesting you should do the same.

 

 

Ok, I'll try that to get that cage off. I have the front end on jackstands and I used a long bolt to bush on the broken one. The car started lifting off the jackstand and the only thig the jack touched was that bolt. All the weight was on it.

 

I have brand new bushings and they fit VERY snug in the holes after adding the plates. I had to use a sanding drum on my dremel to get them to fit completely. There are no gaps when the bushing is pushed though so I figured it was OK. I will be sure to grease them as you said as well. Thanks for all your help!

[GutlessSupreme]

How thick is the plate you used to weld over the old rusted out areas, out of curiosity?

 

When I had to repair the rear of the cradle in my Cutlass, the passenger bolt snapped. I think with an oxyacetylene torch and vise grips, me and my buddy were able to get it out. If you should go that route, just keep an eye on your interior carpet and make sure it doesn't catch on fire. Didn't happen to me, but I worried about it lol.

 

You could also try welding something to the broken bolt and use that to assist the removal...

[wickedbuick]

How thick is the plate you used to weld over the old rusted out areas, out of curiosity?

 

When I had to repair the rear of the cradle in my Cutlass, the passenger bolt snapped. I think with an oxyacetylene torch and vise grips, me and my buddy were able to get it out. If you should go that route, just keep an eye on your interior carpet and make sure it doesn't catch on fire. Didn't happen to me, but I worried about it lol.

 

You could also try welding something to the broken bolt and use that to assist the removal...

 

 

It was some steel plates my dad had when he still worked at delphi. I didn't measure them but they appear right over a 1/16th of an inch thick. The metal that was rusted didn't seem any thicker in that area so it seemed OK to me. Everytime I braked orlaunched there was a LOUD pop. I got new ball joints and went over everything else and it still was happening. My friend Milzy said the cradle is probably moving due to the amout of rust and metal missing. That's why I started this process.

 

I already cut the floor open inside so I'm just gonna replace the whole nut. I already picked them up from the dealer. I got a few extras just in case lol

[Crazy K]

the metal on the frame is way too thin in the first place... but that was how it was made. Someone (patgizz) keyed me in on using electical box cover plates to fix the frame. they can be had galvanized with holes already in the middle, and seem to be thicker than the original metal... once welded, you just need a template from a good frame to mark the exact loaction the holes should go and ream to pre-cut holes bigger to fit the mounts.