cutlassman Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 Nutshell: I overheated the engine with no coolant in the block, now there's coolant in the oil. Cracked heads, blown gaskets? I didn't re-fill the block after a radiator change - woops! Details below. I have a '92 Cutlass Convertible, 3.1L. It's a car I've had for 10 years that I absolutely hate...and absolutely love. I'm sure fellow w-bodiers feel the same way! My original radiator was leaking from the driver's side, so I bought a new radiator and tackled the project last weekend. While I was at it, I changed the thermostat, put on a new water pump (old one was leaking a bit), put on a new power steering pump (old one was leaking), repaired the leaking transmission oil cooler lines, and did an oil change. All was good after being re-assembled. I did the thermostat first, then water pump, then ps pump, then radiator. I refilled the radiator and overflow tank and bled the ps system. I started the car for the last five minutes of bleeding the ps system. At that time, I realized the temp was going up and the check gauges light came on. I immediately turned the engine off and checked things out. The thermostat housing was hot, but the hose to the radiator (upper hose) was cold. After cooling, I took out the thermostat, thinking the new one might be bad, then realized there was no coolant in the block! I added coolant, replaced the thermostat, and bled the air from the cooling system. That was all on Sunday. On Monday, I started the car, gave it a good car wash, and drove around for around 20 miles and it ran great! The temp was low, where it should be. Later that day I drove to work and on the way, it was running rough. After sitting for two hours, I tried starting the car and it was seized! The starter wouldn't crank the engine. The next day in the light I checked the dipstick and sure enough, coolant in the oil. I had a breaker bar to try manually cranking the engine and it moved. Then I tried starting the car and it fired up, but ran rough. About 30 seconds later a bunch of white smoke starts pouring out of the exhaust. Now, the car will start, but there are problems. What are some thoughts? Cracked cylinder head(s), blown head gasket? I don't want to sink a bunch of money in a repair if a reman engine or used engine is a better choice. This engine is a reman that was put in (2003) at 104,000 miles...car now has 144k. If it's just the head gaskets, I could probably do that. Any thoughts or previous experiences would be appreciated! I know I f*&$%ed up...now just trying to come up with a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOT2B GM Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 get the cooling system pressure tested to see where the leak is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 This could be anything really. Not sure how a pressure test will help narrow down possibilities, but I suppose it can't hurt. Either you cracked your heads, or just blew the head gaskets. Either way, your heads will likely be warped because of the heat and you'll need to have a shop straighten them out and resurface them. Not sure how likely it is for these blocks to get warped or cracked, but I suppose you'll find out. I would pull the heads and check for head gasket damage after a pressure test. You have to realize that without coolant in the system, the temperature gauge will take a while to register the right temperature. Your engine was running MUCH hotter than what the gauge said because of that, so by the time you saw the gauge go up, the engine had already overheated. Might be worth considering that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 Sorry to hear about your experience, that really sucks. That would probably ruin my month. I also recently replaced the radiator in my convertible and am lucky I didn't have that problem. I didn't take particular care to check for coolant in the block, I guess I just got lucky, although I did do my usually fill radiator, open bleeder, squeeze upper radiator hose, close bleeder, release hose... I do that many dozens of times until doing that no longer causes the coolant level in the radiator to drop. Then I started the engine and opened the bleeders till coolant spews freely from them. Sadly, it does sound like you have a lot of work ahead of you. I don't know if a pressure test will tell you anything you don't already know, which is you have either cracked head gasket, cracked head, or cracked block. I think you have to tear it down and do a visual inspection to see what cracked. A compression test should help to tell you which cylinder has the problem, so that will at least give you an area to focus in on. If two adjacent cylinders have low compression, that's a good sign that it's only the head gasket. Since the engine overheated, you'll definitely need to get the heads decked. Head gaskets are a pain to change considering how much needs to come apart, but it's not really that bad and they're pretty cheap. Cracked head can easily be replaced when you're changing the head gaskets. Only thing I think that would make you need to replace the whole engine is if the block is cracked or there is significant scoring on the cylinder walls from the coolant getting in there. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 He hydrolocked the engine.. Something is very messed up at this point.. Your best bet, get a JY 3.1, they should be cheap enough You trashed the heads from the sounds of it.. Either cracked or severely warped.. And of course you got a reman engines, so that engine coulda had 250K on it before they remaned it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 He hydrolocked the engine.. Something is very messed up at this point.. Your best bet, get a JY 3.1, they should be cheap enough You trashed the heads from the sounds of it.. Either cracked or severely warped.. And of course you got a reman engines, so that engine coulda had 250K on it before they remaned it.. Well he did mention that he can start it now, but I'm also going to go with severely warped or cracked heads. For the cost of doing this whole job and decking the heads at a machine shop, you'll be better off in regard to time and cost just pulling a junkyard engine and doing a swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 It'll take some time, but I don't know about cost. Heads don't cost much (I don't think) and I didn't think having them decked costs that much either. A friend at O'Reillys got mine done at their machine shop for free, but I'm thinking he wouldn't have if it cost very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted May 6, 2010 Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 It'll take some time, but I don't know about cost. Heads don't cost much (I don't think) and I didn't think having them decked costs that much either. A friend at O'Reillys got mine done at their machine shop for free, but I'm thinking he wouldn't have if it cost very much. Right, but I just wouldn't feel at ease at that point. A lot can happen to an engine when it heats up without coolant inside. It might work fine for a few hundred miles, but you can run into a lot of short term problems down the road. You could easily start knocking on the bottom end shortly after replacing the heads, your compression may never be the same again, and the list goes on. IIRC it cost me $75 to get the Jag heads resurfaced. Would probably be cheaper for V6 heads, but I can't see them doing it for less than $50 unless you're in a small town or know the guys running the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutlassman Posted May 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2010 You are all confirming my dilemma! I spoke with a guy at a head place and he said re-surfacing and testing would be around $40 each. Add around $80 for a new head gasket set and I could be out of this for around $160. But my time in labor is priceless! Plus, if a couple cylinders are jacked with low compression, I'm wasting my time and would be better going with a used unit. I'm puzzled why the engine would be essentially seized enough that the starter wouldn't crank it, but just a simple turn on the crankshaft wtih a breaker bar was enough to "loosen" the engine to allow the starter to start the engine again. My wife reminds me I'm a scientist by trade and not a mechanic...although I play one on weekends! At least the car is paid for and is our third vehicle...or my toy. I could take my time to pull the heads and re-install, but I don't have the equipment for an engine swap if it comes to that. This sucks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 7, 2010 Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 Don't forget the extra $25-30 for head bolts too! The service manual says you can reuse the old ones, but being stretch bolts, I personally wouldn't risk it. Maybe this is a good time to swap to something a little more interesting than a 3.1L V6. Had some time passed when you turned the crank with the breaker? My first thought was the engine had overheated causing the pistons to thermally expand and swell up in their bores so the starter couldn't turn them. By the time you went back with the breaker bar, they'd cooled down and contracted back to their normal size. Tolerances in an engine are very tight, so I'm guessing something like that could happen if the engine metals have exceeded normal operating temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted May 7, 2010 Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 Don't forget the extra $25-30 for head bolts too! The service manual says you can reuse the old ones, but being stretch bolts, I personally wouldn't risk it. Maybe this is a good time to swap to something a little more interesting than a 3.1L V6. Had some time passed when you turned the crank with the breaker? My first thought was the engine had overheated causing the pistons to thermally expand and swell up in their bores so the starter couldn't turn them. By the time you went back with the breaker bar, they'd cooled down and contracted back to their normal size. Tolerances in an engine are very tight, so I'm guessing something like that could happen if the engine metals have exceeded normal operating temps. Or he did temporarily hydrolock, and the blown headgaskets and/or cracked heads had enough room to remove the pressure from the hydrolock by the time he turned the crank again. Don't ever thing you don't have the tools to do something. I have a 44 page thread about a 1987 Jaguar XJS V12 that I worked on most of last year. It was the first engine I had ever removed heads on, the first engine I had ever pulled and swapped, and the first time I had unbolted and swapped a transmission. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing but it all came together one piece at a time. Just use your common sense. Keep in mind that if someone had the brains to put it in there, you have the brains to pull it out again. If I can pull a Jag V12, you can pull an engine. All you need is an engine lift, and those aren't horribly expensive. IIRC, some places even rent them, if you have a truck to pick it up in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted May 8, 2010 Report Share Posted May 8, 2010 Yes, he did have it hydrolocked, causing the sieze like issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutlassman Posted May 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2010 Thanks for all the thoughts and advice. The overheating happened Sunday evening, while the temporary seizing of the engine happened the next evening, after I drove around 15 miles earlier in the day, let the car rest for two hours, drove two miles, let the car rest five hours, drove two miles, let the car rest two hours, then drove two miles and let the car rest two hours...if that makes sense. If it was hydrolocked, do you guys think taking care of the head gasket/cylinder head damage will be enough? I'm not afraid to tackle that repair...like xtremerevolution said, common sense will guide me, even though I haven't done it before. Besides, at this point, I can't drive the car anyway! However, I don't want to piss away my time if there's a good chance there's piston damage or damage to the block. Does anyone have any experience with a hydrolocked engine? Oh for a $1,000, 50k donor '92 Cutlass that was owned by some grandma! If it wasn't a convertible in such good shape, I would throw in the towel. Instead, I'm hopelessly attached to this damn car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutlassman Posted May 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Just an update incase someone needs this information in the future. I ripped the engine apart...it pissed coolant when I pulled the oil drain plug. The rear head gasket was blown around one cylinder with at least some coolant resting in each cylinder. That explains the hydrolocking. The front head gasket was fine. The block is still filled with coolant, so it doesn't appear to be cracked. The guy at the cylinder shop will resurface both heads after testing, but they don't appear to be warped or cracked. I'll post some pics here of what the rear cylinders look like and the blown head gasket. After getting the heads back next week, I'll begin the assembly process! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado_735 Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 What the hell...? I did not know our cylinders were staggered like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 What the hell...? I did not know our cylinders were staggered like that. I think typical V-engine cylinders are all staggered because the piston rods have to connect to separate journals on the crankshaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy K Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 What the hell...? I did not know our cylinders were staggered like that. ????? You can;t make an engine that is not staggered... so is the block it good? those don't look like original headgaskets to me... did you have something done previously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 I think typical V-engine cylinders are all staggered because the piston rods have to connect to separate journals on the crankshaft. Correct! And to cutlassman, if coolant came out of the oil pan, I'd be expecting a rod knock sooner rather than later after the repair. Hopefully you get lucky though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) Don't remember my engine being staggered like that. I guess since the banks are so far apart, it doesn't look as staggered. Good luck. I know when I discovered the Jag head gaskets were blown, I stopped running that thing. The oil got a slight creamy color, but it never overheated. When I saw the oil color, I decided that was as far as I was going to go to prevent any further damage. Just to note, while you're down there, remove all of the lifters, soak them in kerosene over night, disassemble them, clean them thoroughly, and put them back together. Don't make the mistake I did putting it all back together only to find out you should have done that when you were that far into the engine. Also inspect the pushrods for wear or clogging, and replace them if necessary. They're only $2 each at any auto store, and I would personally replace them all anyway just in case. Your call there though, but don't start wondering what that valvetrain ticking noise is when you put it all back together. While you're in there, you could also spend the few hours or so to hand lap the valves to make sure they seal properly, since you most likely will not be tearing down that engine again. Its very easy to do. Edited May 21, 2010 by xtremerevolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgethis Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Don't remember my engine being staggered like that. I guess since the banks are so far apart, it doesn't look as staggered. Good luck. I know when I discovered the Jag head gaskets were blown, I stopped running that thing. The oil got a slight creamy color, but it never overheated. When I saw the oil color, I decided that was as far as I was going to go to prevent any further damage. Just to note, while you're down there, remove all of the lifters, soak them in kerosene over night, disassemble them, clean them thoroughly, and put them back together. Don't make the mistake I did putting it all back together only to find out you should have done that when you were that far into the engine. Also inspect the pushrods for wear or clogging, and replace them if necessary. They're only $2 each at any auto store, and I would personally replace them all anyway just in case. Your call there though, but don't start wondering what that valvetrain ticking noise is when you put it all back together. While you're in there, you could also spend the few hours or so to hand lap the valves to make sure they seal properly, since you most likely will not be tearing down that engine again. Its very easy to do. Its moments like these I wish I was around the area. I would enjoy to help out a learn to do a swap. BTW I enjoyed the journey you posted Xextreme about your jag. Getting back on thread...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted May 21, 2010 Report Share Posted May 21, 2010 Its moments like these I wish I was around the area. I would enjoy to help out a learn to do a swap.BTW I enjoyed the journey you posted Xextreme about your jag. Getting back on thread...... Would be nice to have a third helper. You'd be surprised how much help you can use when you're working on a V12 jag. It is 100% possible to do it yourself, but a helping hand or two is always welcome. As for the Jag, I placed the order for the shipment a couple weeks ago, and they're trying to find a second driver. The first driver blew a transmission, or the car would already be on its way. I may end up having to find a different company to move it for me. I also have a template ready for a cylinder head puller. Essentially a 3/4" thick sheet of steel with holes in it. Where do you live anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtwmechanic Posted May 22, 2010 Report Share Posted May 22, 2010 every v style engine i have ever seen is staggered. hard to put two pistons in the line of 1 rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado_735 Posted May 22, 2010 Report Share Posted May 22, 2010 IIRC, The cylinders in my Land Rover were not staggered. I could be wrong though. I'll look at the pictures I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutlassman Posted May 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2010 The engine is a reman with about seven years/37,000 miles on it. That explains the head gaskets. I'll closely inspect the pushrods and clean the lifters. I haven't done a valve job before, but this probably is a good time to learn. Doesn't seem to be real difficult - unless one of the springs decides to act crazy! I ordered all new gaskets and headbolts and they're all on the way. I guess I'll tackle hand lapping the valves next week. Man, I sure hope all is good after re-assembly! From what I can surmise, I probably only drove the car two miles after the head gasket completely gave way, so hopefully any other damage is limited. From looking at the rear head, the one cylinder was probably taking on at least some coolant for a while, considering how clean the head is in that area. The quick overheating might have been the last straw. However, the oil level was never higher than it should have been...until all hell broke loose. The second picture is of the front head, which looks pretty good - but there really aren't many miles on the engine since the rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtwmechanic Posted May 22, 2010 Report Share Posted May 22, 2010 would be a perfect time for a 3400 top swap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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