LQ1 Timing Belt Issues--Finally Running!!

[Galaxie500XL]

Well, I HAD the car running well last night, but that was last night. This morning, I got into the car, started it, and immediately things started going wrong. It began missing, I heard an odd noise coming from the passenger's side under the hood, then the car died. Wouldn't restart.

 

Anyhow, got to checking a few things. The cams are turning...but I suspect the cam timing's off. Took the front cam belt inspection cover off, the belt had a couple of light marks in odd places on the backside, the teeth looked OK. Then, had my son crank the car, while I watched the belt. The cams were not moving smoothly, but in a somewhat jerky fashion, and the cam belt was jumping up and down between the two cam gears nearly a half inch....

 

Am I correct that this is a good indication that the cam belt tensioner has probably failed, and the cams are now out of time?

 

If so, is there likely any damage, since the engine was idling at the time?

 

Thanks for all the help you folks have provided....one of these days, maybe I'll get everything fixed!

[White93z34]

sounds like the timing belt tensioner broke. I had the same thing happen a few years back, car started running all sorts of weird, then stalled. I would doubt that any valve damage occurred.

 

when was its last timing belt job?

[Galaxie500XL]

Thanks! That's kind of what I was thinking..I'd never watched the belt with the engine being cranked, but was pretty sure that the belt should'nt be junping up and down between the cam sprokets....

 

Sad thing, I'd just fixed the stupid thing after it being down for 3 weeks due to a leaking LIM. I'm assuming the upper intake gasket (3 days old, 40 miles) can probably be reused....since the plenum I installed on Monday will be coming back off.

 

Couple of questions. No doubt I should replace everything-tensioner, idlers, and I assume the little hydraulic adjuster...

 

Is one brand better than another? I see Dayco and Gates stuff, but noticed Rockauto has the GM timing component set, which has everything but the little hydraulic adjuster...which is best?

 

Additionally, I'd already had a machine shop buddy of mine make cam hold downs, got the plans from 60 degree v-6 .com...Where can I get the sproket tools for a decent price, or are they needed on the '95 LQ1?

 

It would have been nice to have enjoyed the car for a few days after having fixed the LIM...but hey, that's how it goes sometimes!

 

 

[White93z34]

I was always told a gear puller could work in a pinch. however if the car is your 95... you should not need it, at least so i'm told.

 

last time I did it i bought everything from the dealer, the idlers were stamped dayco so take that for what its worth. all the gm part numbers are in the parts number thread stickied in the general section.

 

I don't think there is any notable quality difference from one brand to the other. however from what i've found the tensioner - the hydraulic adjuster you refer to, will need to come from the dealer (or gmpd) and by what you describe that is what broke.

[Galaxie500XL]

That's kind of what I was thinking...I'll check the dealer for the hydraulic tensioner.

 

I forgot to answer your previous question...I'm not sure when the belt was serviced last, I've had the car ('95 Cutlass Convertible) for a little over 6 months.

 

 

Anything else I should be taking apart and inspecting while it's in pieces (again)? I'm wondering the the alternator can be removed if the cam belt and associated parts are disassembled...been noticing output is down to about 13 volts...

 

ANY suggestions/advice are appreciated.

 

Tjamls!

 

 

I was always told a gear puller could work in a pinch. however if the car is your 95... you should not need it, at least so i'm told.

 

last time I did it i bought everything from the dealer, the idlers were stamped dayco so take that for what its worth. all the gm part numbers are in the parts number thread stickied in the general section.

 

I don't think there is any notable quality difference from one brand to the other. however from what i've found the tensioner - the hydraulic adjuster you refer to, will need to come from the dealer (or gmpd) and by what you describe that is what broke.

[White93z34]

alternator won't be any easier right now. You just said you did intake gaskets? those are the only thing i'd mess with if you had not already done them. Just plan on taking a lot of time on the timing belt first time around. I know what I'm doing now and it still takes me 6 or more hours.

[Galaxie500XL]

Thanks for the advice... Yes, I'd just gotten everything back together yesterday, replaced the LIM gaskets, fixed several leaks, replaced the thermostat, new injector o rings...last night, it was running the best it ever had....

 

But I had over the past few days of driving noticed a sort of ticking sound, it appeared to be coming from the area just behind and below the power steering pump. Beginning to wonder if that was the timing belt component about to die...

 

 

alternator won't be any easier right now. You just said you did intake gaskets? those are the only thing i'd mess with if you had not already done them. Just plan on taking a lot of time on the timing belt first time around. I know what I'm doing now and it still takes me 6 or more hours.

[Crazy K]

i did my 95 lq1 with just hold down cam tools... the cam locks came loose with a little prying tapping and wiggling...

[spiderw31]

Wow that sucks dude. I agree it sounds like the tensioner has failed, and hopefully none of the valves tapped into pistons. I know the earlier LQ1 motors are supposed to be non-interference, but sometimes carbon buildup can be enough to negate that (happened to me).

 

I got all the tools to do the job from http://www.etoolcart.com, though if you've already got the hold down tools you are ahead of the game. My car is a '92 and the cam sprockets are different, so I'm not sure exactly what needs to be done to remove them firsthand.

 

I used the Gates kit from Rockauto, as I was reading around here that the quality of the gates kit was better than the Dayco. FWIW, mine failed because a Dayco idler crapped out (the bearing had 1/4" of play in it).

 

If by some bad luck you did tweak valves and the heads do need to come off, there are two bright spots in that. First, a proper replacement of the oil pump drive seal becomes a trivial task. Second, the alternator CAN be removed out the top of the car with the rear head off (at least it was possible in my '92). What's more, it's actually pretty easy to do.

 

Good luck!

[Galaxie500XL]

Thanks for the advice...the Gates kit is cheaper, too...and I'm driving a 15 year old car for reasons other than I like it...

 

Found an error on the General sticky for P/N's...the part number for the tensioner actuator is incorrect. It's listed as 24503560.. Called the stealership this morning, the correct P/N is 24503860. They say I also need a "plate", P/N 24503861 to use with the actuator, but I suspect mine already has that...cost on the "plate" is $8.05.

 

 

Wow that sucks dude. I agree it sounds like the tensioner has failed, and hopefully none of the valves tapped into pistons. I know the earlier LQ1 motors are supposed to be non-interference, but sometimes carbon buildup can be enough to negate that (happened to me).

 

I got all the tools to do the job from http://www.etoolcart.com, though if you've already got the hold down tools you are ahead of the game. My car is a '92 and the cam sprockets are different, so I'm not sure exactly what needs to be done to remove them firsthand.

 

I used the Gates kit from Rockauto, as I was reading around here that the quality of the gates kit was better than the Dayco. FWIW, mine failed because a Dayco idler crapped out (the bearing had 1/4" of play in it).

 

If by some bad luck you did tweak valves and the heads do need to come off, there are two bright spots in that. First, a proper replacement of the oil pump drive seal becomes a trivial task. Second, the alternator CAN be removed out the top of the car with the rear head off (at least it was possible in my '92). What's more, it's actually pretty easy to do.

 

Good luck!

[spiderw31]

You may not need that "plate", but I'd recommend getting it regardless. That is the part that houses the outer bushing for the tensioner, and it had seized to the tensioner on my car. It would really suck to have the tensioner stick causing all the brand new stuff to jump time again!

[White93z34]

I must have been dyslexic when I typed that part number in: i'll correct and update, sorry.

 

I've never needed the plate myself. But for as cheap as it is...

[Galaxie500XL]

Thanks!

 

That's pretty much what I was thinking. It would really stink to have it break again after going through all this just because I was too cheap to replace an $8.00 part.

 

 

I must have been dyslexic when I typed that part number in: i'll correct and update, sorry.

 

I've never needed the plate myself. But for as cheap as it is...

[Galaxie500XL]

I just got back from the stealership, where I bought a new hydraulic timing belt actuator, P/N #24503860.

 

I know in the factory service manual, they describe taking the actuator apart, filling it with oil, then using a paperclip to secure the entire thing together.

 

Anyhow, I bought a NEW one from Chevrolet...and it has a pin in it already holding it together. Is is already pre-filled with oil, and ready to go, or do I need to follow the procedure in the service manual?

[spiderw31]

Mine was pre-filled.

[White93z34]

it comes pre filled. also tie a string to the pin so you can actually pull it out unlike what I did the first time

[Galaxie500XL]

I'll keep the string in mind...been at the junkyard today. Found a '94 LQ1 Grand Prix...got a couple of things from it, including some of the formed vacuum lines that look as if they leak on my car...and one of those fancy EGR covers from a 3.8 Buick.

 

Total cost: $3.00...which sort of reduced the sting of the hydraulic actuator, $121.21 including sales tax...

 

I'm wondering about the little plastic grommets the hold-down bolts for the cam covers go through...several of mine already look iffy--the stealership could not locate any replacements. I'd thinking a careful application of black gasket sealer, allowed to cure overnight before reinstalling the cam covers...

 

Any alternate suggestions?

 

 

it comes pre filled. also tie a string to the pin so you can actually pull it out unlike what I did the first time

[spiderw31]

I'm wondering about the little plastic grommets the hold-down bolts for the cam covers go through...several of mine already look iffy--the stealership could not locate any replacements. I'd thinking a careful application of black gasket sealer, allowed to cure overnight before reinstalling the cam covers...

 

Any alternate suggestions?

 

Thats pretty much what I did.

[Galaxie500XL]

Stealership is saying the actuator plate (P/N 24503861) is no longer available...anything to look for to make sure the plate is OK for reuse?

 

Got the Gates timing kit ordered from RockAuto (timing belt, tensioner, 2 idlers), along with the Fel-Pro valve cover (cam cover) gaskets, and have a new hydraulic actuator in hand...

 

Anything else I need to buy?

 

I'm waiting on pulling it apart until I have all the stuff--I hate starting a job, walking away from it for a couple of days, then trying to remember where I left off!

 

 

You may not need that "plate", but I'd recommend getting it regardless. That is the part that houses the outer bushing for the tensioner, and it had seized to the tensioner on my car. It would really suck to have the tensioner stick causing all the brand new stuff to jump time again!

[spiderw31]

Stealership is saying the actuator plate (P/N 24503861) is no longer available...anything to look for to make sure the plate is OK for reuse?

 

Odd... I had no issues getting mine from the local dealer. Mine older too so I'd have expected to be harder to get. Anyways, just make sure that the bronze bushing is in good shape, and isn't overly loose / tight on the new actuator.

 

On your list of stuff, I think you'll need the UIM and EGR gaskets too, and tools (if you don't have them already... don't recall if you mentioned that bit).

[Galaxie500XL]

I've debated whether to reuse the upper intake manifold gasket...the one on it has less than 40 miles on it, since all this began right after I replaced the LIM gasket....

 

But it would be a shame to have to pull it apart again...I'll probably replace the UIM gasket, just to be safe.

 

Additionally, I am having some trouble understanding why the cam gears need to be pulled off...is this to ensure the marks line up, to ensure they are aligned properly?

 

From what I now understand, I install my cam hold-down tools so the flats on all 4 cams face up, turn the engine so that #1 is at TDC, loosen the cam gears on the rear bank, and line them up, then install the new timing belt. Tighten the rear cam gears, remove the rear cam hold down. Loosen the bolts on the front cam gears, turn the engine 360 degrees, which will then give me the rear cams flats down, and the fronts flats up. Tighten the cam gear bolts on the front cams, apply 12-15 lbs of tension on the belt tensioner, then remove the front cam hold-down, and reassemble.

 

Is this correct?

 

 

Stealership is saying the actuator plate (P/N 24503861) is no longer available...anything to look for to make sure the plate is OK for reuse?

 

Odd... I had no issues getting mine from the local dealer. Mine older too so I'd have expected to be harder to get. Anyways, just make sure that the bronze bushing is in good shape, and isn't overly loose / tight on the new actuator.

 

On your list of stuff, I think you'll need the UIM and EGR gaskets too, and tools (if you don't have them already... don't recall if you mentioned that bit).

[spiderw31]

Yeah that sounds like the basic procedure. Just not sure of the details on getting the cam sprockets loose though, and I know the design changed. I do know that the pressed in lock rings on the earlier motors though is a royal pain!

[Galaxie500XL]

From what I understand, the '95-up don't use the lock rings, and can be loosened easily.

 

Right now, I'm waiting for that plate. I found out by looking at old postings on this site that the bronze bushing comes with the plate, my new actuator didn't come with one.

 

Unfortunately, I ordered it through GM Parts Direct, since the dealer didn't have one. They STILL haven't shipped it, even though I ordered it 5 days ago. According to their website, they average shipping 7-10 days after an order. Had I known that, I would have gone somewhere else.

 

Hopefully, the plate will come in next week...

 

Yeah that sounds like the basic procedure. Just not sure of the details on getting the cam sprockets loose though, and I know the design changed. I do know that the pressed in lock rings on the earlier motors though is a royal pain!

[Galaxie500XL]

Well, now I'm getting a little worried... GM Parts Direct STILL has not shipped my plate, which I understand I really should replace.

 

Also, I've been reading up on the procedure, and most are saying the cam gear holder tool is absolutely needed in order to not bend the cam hold down, or tear up the threads that hold down uses when the cam gear is torqued down to 96 foot-pounds.

 

Is that correct?

[Galaxie500XL]

Problem #1 solved. Found a Chevy dealer in Virginia that had the part in stock, it will be in at the end of the week...

 

BTW, another helpful parts department gave me an exploded diagram of the LQ1 block, along with the current Part# list of pretty much anything that goes on an LQ1 short block. Would that be useful to the list, and if so, how would the best way be to get it to the list?