Code help

[White93z34]

I don't know what the first picture is, however the second one looks to be the drain tube for your HVAC box.

[GP1138]

First one EVAP solenoid? Vaccum line? Does it appear to have air running through it?

[MonteCarloChick]

No idea.. the car won't turn on. It's about 2 inches long with a 90* bend and a clean sliced end

[MonteCarloChick]

Anyone with a 3100: can you reach down where it was described and feel what I'm talking about? If it's nothing?

[tornado_735]

Shit, my GP is about 30 miles away now.

[MonteCarloChick]

There's a hose going into the bank 1 (rear) valve cover that is very loose. It pops in and out with zero effort. Could this be an issue causing my car not to start and saying it's too lean in bank 1?

[slick]

If you don't have it figured out by the morning, I'll freeze my ass off and take some pictures for you tomorrow morning before Rachel heads to work.

 

 

[MonteCarloChick]

I'm in for the night.. Thank you

[tornado_735]

Have you verified the basics, fuel, air, timing and spark?

 

Does it even act like it is trying to start?

[MonteCarloChick]

It would run roughly on idle SOMETIMES. Other times it would would run rough for about 10 seconds then even out. Other times it would be very rough and even out after driving for a minute or 2. Then it just up and wouldn't start the other day. It goes to start but doesn't.

 

 

TIMELINE:

 

New cat and exhaust tubing from the cat back this past summer.

 

A couple months pass.

 

Car idled rough on and off.

 

New O2 sensors recently replaced because of a downstream code being thrown. After those were installed and the plugs and wires were changed, I got the p0171 code.

 

Replaced plugs and wires.

 

Cleaned original MAF sensor and that didn't work.

 

Cleaned and installed a spare MAF sensor (known to be working last time) and that didn't work.

 

Car still ran rough now won't start at all.

 

 

[tornado_735]

Didn't you just change the coilpack too?

[MonteCarloChick]

Correct. That was before the o2 sensors. Car wouldn't start (same symptoms, no code though) and replaced the packs and all was well for about a couple days. Then it was idling rough and threw the o2 code.

[tornado_735]

Correct. That was before the o2 sensors. Car wouldn't start (same symptoms, no code though) and replaced the packs and all was well for about a couple days. Then it was idling rough and threw the o2 code.

 

Well shit. IIRC, that coil was from a 3100 L-body? Any chance that coil was bad?

 

If nobody gets to it, I will check mine tomorrow after I get off work. I didn't get a real look behind my engine when I changed my plugs (of course I was watching more for the crackheads where I was living at the time.

 

([pkhfyu77777777ddd9o m) <--- my cat saying hello

 

And is that hose going to the valve cover the PCV hose?

 

[MonteCarloChick]

We tested the coils on my car for the hell of it when we removed them from the Corsica a couple summers ago and they were fine.

 

I'll run the loose line tomorrow and see where it leads

[slick]

Cranks? Does it sputter and die, or just crank? Can you hear any detonation, if say someone is cranking while listening at the exhaust?

 

Have you tried holding the throttle slightly open while starting? I know the ecm controls fuel, but it's worth a shot.

 

At this point, I would again verify that you have proper resistance across all of the injectors, and that you have spark (pull a plug and leave it in the wire, get it close enough that it would spark against the frame rail or some bolt). If not, then you may have an issue with the crank, or even cam sensor.

 

No matter, you most likely have a vacuum leak. Large enough, and it can cause starting issues.

[MonteCarloChick]

It just cranks but no start. And we were going to try to listen for the fuel pump today but lost time. Tomorrow we will.

 

And yes, I tried holding the gas pedal down while starting once but it didn't work

[slick]

Do you have the availability to check fuel pressure at the rail? I know the port is a pita to get to on the 3100's, but worth doing.

[MonteCarloChick]

No

[MonteCarloChick]

<~~ Boyfriend

 

Today I plan to confirm she's getting fuel by simply smelling the tailpipe after cranking.

 

Cranking is 100% NORMAL, not weak at all. The problem at first appears to be a lack of spark, or lack of fuel, but the 0171 code led us in an entirely different direction. (MAP cleaned, air filter cleaned, MAP swapped, all 3 coils swapped, both O2's replaced (holy shit the upstream was fun),

 

Originally we had bad O2 sensor codes, and random/multiple misfire codes. Those were both "fixed" with brand new O2 sensors, and new plugs/wires. After that was done the problem was exactly the same (occasional no-start, rough idle for 10 secs-3 mins after the car was driven and started usually about 3-4 times)

 

 

I was so focused on the "missing" line on the evap solenoid I didn't think much of the loose line.

 

Line in question:

 

Bank 2 PCV, to UIM, to bank 1 valve cover. And unsure where it goes after that.

 

It's a hard plastic line, seems to be warped (or maybe a fitting is turned that I didn't notice?), it sits snug on the PCV, PCV fits snugly. On bank 2 valve cover it just slides in, and doesn't fit flush with the valve cover.

 

If a vacuum leak is the problem, could this be the culprit?

 

Keeping in mind:

On COLD starts 90%(or more) of the time the car started fine.

On COLD starts 10% (or less) of the time there was a no start. (I would move plug wires on the coils and this seemed to fix the problem. I had assumed the old plug wires were arcing, so put some wire loom on the wires, and all seemed fine for a day)

 

Under NORMAL driving conditions, and not beating the piss out of the car, we could run a few errands with no problem. Usually around the 3rd start, there would be some hesitation at idle, then it would even out after 10 secs-2mins. 4th and 5th start would be brutal, rough idle for 5mins+ hesitation on acceleration, almost a bit of chugging on acceleration too.

Hopefully this helps..... I gotta get this car fixed yesterday. School starts Tuesday for Nichole.

 

Thanks in advance.

[White93z34]

You say you have changed coils, have you also changed the ICM under them?

 

By smelling the tailpipe you are verifying that, yes fuel is getting into the engine, but It would be best to check fuel pressure, I don't know where the schrader valve is on the 3100, but remove the little cap on it and press it with a small screwdriver, fuel should go up at least a 6 inches out of the rail or cover it with a rag and do that, and it should get soaked in pretty short order. that should at least verify that you are getting some fuel pressure.

 

as for the missing vac/emissions lines check the emissions routing diagram on the tag on the radiator suport that should tell you how it should all be routed.

[slick]

The schrader valve is on the side of the rail, beside the power steering pump. Little black cap, take it off, press the pintle with a screwdriver. Much better than smelling the exhaust, and you should get a pretty good squirt of gas.

 

The PCV line go's from the front valve cover to the throttle body around the back, and into the EVAP canister. Should have a red electrical plug.

 

There should be another fairly large size line coming off of it. It comes up, near the brake booster, than down and to the rear of the car.

 

There's a small line from the fuel pressure regulator to the map sensor.

 

 

 

Uploading pictures now.

[slick]

Reference for all of your vacuum lines

 

Here you can see the little line that go's from the Fuel Pressure Regulator to the MAP sensor

 

The MAP sensor, with the two lines on the backside of it. The line on the back side, closest to the firewall, which in the picture is the one farthest from the red plug, is the line that go's to the back of the car.

 

Here you can see the above mentioned line coming coming up near the brake booster. It will eventually go down under the car. You would be getting an EVAP code if this was bad.

 

The other line is your PCV line. Circles around the back, up front to the top of the throttle body (bend up the metal plate there to make sure it's good, if anything use some high temp RTV to make sure it's sealed up good) and then to the front valve cover to the PCV valve. Same picture used above, you can see the larger line go's under that metal plate. This caused a high idle issue with the Regal, as air was leaking by on the inlet to the throttle body.

 

[1990lumina]

The symptoms and slow progression of the problems sound like a fuel pump on it's way out to me.

[slick]

I agree with Jeff.

 

You should be able to rent a fuel pressure gauge at the autoparts store.

 

 

[MonteCarloChick]

Thanks a ton for the pics, I'll take a look today, but what I didn't see in your pictures was the line at the bottom of that evap unit (the unit that sits under/behind the coil packs and ICM with the red harness), there's a rubber hose with a 90 degree bend pointing down. It looks exactly like the rubber hose on the fuel press regulator with the plastic line inside of it.

 

No we didn't change the ICM, When we swapped the coil packs, the situation stayed the same. Replacing the O2 sensors and plugs and wires resolved the O2 code, and random/multiple misfire codes. She's now getting 0171 Bank 1 lean.

 

If by chance it IS a bad fuel pump, can it be replaced without dropping the tank? I remember seeing a steel plate in her car (trunk, under the rear deck) which looked like a possible access point.