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[Invasion1]

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[Guest TurboSedan]

RedZMonte rebuilt my crossover for FAR FAR less than what JeffM charges. welds look great, has new SS braided flexes, and was cleaned up all around. i haven't installed it yet but for the price i am very happy. besides, he's only 1hr from me...

 

i'm not sure if he's into the business of rebuilding TGP crossovers or what, hopefully he sees this post and can fill you & everyone else in....

joshua

[dbtk2]

I know Jeff's really busy and does everything himself and not to keep pestering people about chips and pipes but i getting no response to my emails

 

From what I have heard he is hella busy with the heads and injectors he is working on and isn't replying to anyones emails. I started wondering when I wasn't getting any replies, hopefully he starts replying soon!!!

 

RedZMonte rebuilt my crossover for FAR FAR less than what JeffM charges. welds look great, has new SS braided flexes, and was cleaned up all around. i haven't installed it yet but for the price i am very happy. besides, he's only 1hr from me...

 

Well, I don't know how well that will work but good luck for you. From what I have heard from Jeff M and others the only way to go is the Jeff M crossover. If you rebuild the original it is just going to re-crack again. Maybe yours was rebuilt differently, and I hope so for you because I hate to see you have to replace it again, but I think many people would rather buy the proven Jeff M crossover and spend the extra $.

[Chris A]

Jeff has been out of town recently so he should be catching up soon!

[Guest TurboSedan]

the price is quite a bit especially when you convert it to CDN currency$$$

 

but it is proven to be a quality product

 

I have mine off the engine and im getting it looked at to see if there is a way to repair the faulty GM design... my sister's Boyfriend is a fantastic welder and he said he could fix it so we will see.

 

I just don't want to have to change it after a few months of use thats why i would go with jeff's proven setup.

 

I just hope he finds time to do business with me

 

cheers

dave

 

btw, my stepdad is a welder for one of the big coal mines here (been there many years)....i showed him RedZ's crossover welds and he said they look great. if Jeff M doesn't have the time to do buisness with you then go elsewhere and save your money in the process.

joshua

[Chris A]

i'm not talking shit about Jeff M's proven quality crossovers, i'm just saying he charges WAY WAY WAAAAAAYYYY too much due to himself saying things like 'i've helped over 2000 TGP owners and i know everything about the TGP blah blah blah". that's bullshit. other people can rebuild crossovers too - it's not fucking rocket science like Jeff would like everyone to believe. just like his chips.......well i could care less since he has no 5-speed chip anyway. fwiw, i'm not buying anything from him.

joshua

 

Fine don't buy anything from him. But don't say your not talking shit, then say its all bull shit, and not fucking rocket science. Makes you sound like a real asshole.

 

If you can rebuild it or get a cheap deal on it GREAT. But there have been a lot of folks who THINK they can rebuild them, and do a really bad job of it. Only to have them fail again. Welding is only half the problem with fixing the crossover. Glad to hear the welds look good. I hope the fit and durability are up there too!

 

Thats why there's so many junky TGP's running around, and sitting broken. "Me thinks me can fix it cheap, then it donut workie right. Now me sells it for cheap to a nutha sucka."

[Guest TurboSedan]

so fine Chris, i'm an asshole i guess. and meanwhile i think you're butt buddies with Jeff M just as many others are here. there are other ways of doing the same thing, and you can spend less money in the process. that's all i'm getting at. and Jeff M has quite a stuck up attitude about TGP's too IMO, so fuck it, i'll do things my own way. call me crazy, but i have a mind of my own, i guess. but then again if i met Jeff in person he might be the coolest guy ever. dam internet. i just think he charges too much for his products for what they are, is all.....

joshua

[4PASNU]

Let me start by saying that I have never bought anything from Jeff M (not that I don't plan to )and I don't know him. I do have a small understanding of how business works and what Jeff is doing for the SMALL TGP community is great. Business is all about profit. To make a profit you have to have a product that sells and be able to produce it at a reasonable cost. For Jeff, he has a products that sell BUT they sell to a very small community as I stated before. Next comes producing the product. Jeff obviously doesn't have a problem producing these items but again, he is producing for a small community and doesn't have the luxury of buying in mass quantity to keep his costs down. Plus, as I know has been mentioned in other posts, you have to consider the time that goes into researching and development, do you think he makes enough money to pay himself for this time, I doubt it, he does it for us. So where is Jeff's profit? Even at the prices he's selling for I would be willing to place a large bet that after all expenses he's not making a whole lot of $$$. I would expect that 99% of the people here would give up doing what Jeff does after a few weeks because we would come to the conclusion that's is just not worth it. I would say most of his profit is in the joy he gets from the hobby and helping people like us. I might be way off on everything I said here, but I doubt it. I just wanted to throw my $.02 in here as a non-biased opinion.

[Guest TurboSedan]

Wow, and did you ever think there MAY just be a good REASON we seem like butt buddies??? Was that supposed to be some sort of insult?

 

Guess not. Maybe you haven't thought that one out before you started hollering about how much he rips people off. I'm glad you are resourceful and handy enough to have it done yourself for less money. There are alot of things that can be done for less if your willing to accept certain things. I'm sure I could get out some sandpaper and krylon and reapaint my car because I think the body shop charges too much. Do I want to try, no.

 

Before Jeff started doing pipes GM really charged too much. He has sinced sourced a better flex joint, and its basically from a tier 1 supplier he had to buy like 500 of them. Quite an investment for such a simple pipe.

 

I really hate it when someone comes on here who CAN do something and bad mounths someone who DOES do something and charges a reasonable price for his reasearch and efforts. This has happened to more people than Jeff Middaugh. Prior remanufacturing has seen these effect because of the increased costs they incur when folks don't RETURN THEIR CORES! When they have to go outside and buy them it drives costs up. 500 was a deal for a PMIII, or any complex integrated ABS system. Now reports of $770 is getting quite expensive.

 

Then we get all these guys out here who have trouble changing a fuse go out and try and do these things because they are now CONVINCED they are getting ripped off and bent over and porked with a big fat one. Not only that, those that do charge get branded that way by the one or two guys who want to make them out as a villian. Just like you said you haven't EVEN MET JEFF and say he might be a nice guy, but are giving the impression that he isn't and you think so now BECAUSE IN YOUR OPINION he charges TOO MUCH. Do YOUR thing. Share YOUR discoveries. Share how LITTLE you did it for. But don't make someone sound like a Crook because you did it for less.

 

Then we get all these guys on here who WANT all these mods and upgrades.

 

"How come no one makes a bigger turbo" How come no one this or that. Because it costs too much to invest the time to reap too little because in the end no one will want to spend that much. Just like these guys who want headers (3.1L). Headers for small market of guys who really want them with little performance potential on a motor that uses many different exhaust configurations and in many different cars. I stopped following it because if one could be found the price was too high, and those that quoted a price that was acceptable didn't get it done.

 

I want to embrace and encourange the aftermarket for the TGP's because they have a huge potential. But its speed bumps like these that can really set progress and enthusiasm back. I don't think you are an asshole, I just said it made you sound like one. You are very resourceful like I said. But start selling them and you will probably find that the price you paid isn't what will make it worth your time to do it for. Keep doing what you are doing.

 

Chris

 

i never said "he rips people off". i said "he charges WAY WAY WAAAAAAYYYY too much" that's just my opinion. i didn't slam him IMO, i call it criticism about how he doesn't email potential customers back (not having time to deal w/them), and yes i think his prices are steep. so what? it's not really a big deal. i even gave him a compliment on his "proven quality crossovers" again i was just giving my opinion. just because i don't LOVE Jeff for his efforts or buy his products, doesn't make me some jerk. well i already posted my opinions on this in another thread and i don't want to continue arguing. later

joshua

[dkorinko]

I am here to support anyone on Jeff's side, I really dont know how you could say he is charging way to much....If you buy the chip, thermostat and K&N filter that is like what?? 350 bucks maybe!!!??? How can you be upset with the performance this upgrade gives you??? And it also fixes many of the minor problems in the TGP. I would say for 350, you could not spend it any better way then on the chip, thermostat, and the filter that Jeff sells.

[Guest TurboSedan]

i guess i'm just more......resourceful? and i can't buy any of his chips that i know of, considering i have a 5-speed. about chips & other stuff like that, i already have another source for that right in CO. and i never said anything bad about his chips, i didn't even know he charges $350 but some other more resourceful people can get a good chip for less or more like free.

 

i am here to support ANY W-body owner who wants to modify their car for the least amount of money. nothing wrong with that IMO.

joshua

[Chris A]

Well, it looks like it made it on here anyway. I didn't really want to contine this because it never comes to a point. I have to deal with the same things from everyone trying to get things for free, or with little to no profit then crying and whining when something isn't perfect. Go figure its the American way.

 

You gave your opinion, but don't want the rebuttal from those who think differently. I didn't quote you with ripping people off: Charging way way too much for the product sold is usually ripping someone off. Excuse the interpretation.

 

I wouldn't have as little time either if I had to deal with so many people asking questions then never buying anything. If out of 100 emails 10 people buy something, it takes a while to get to those who want to buy, while still trying to service those who don't. I my self like to give the best service, and expect that back. Jeff has given me the best service many times, and lots of free advice. For what? A little support in return. Good words here and there, some mentions on my webpage. A chip and crossover purchase way back? He may not be there with next day service all the time, but he will be there for you. I am convined of that. Buying something or not, jeff will give you as much info as he can. Each and every time. All the result of a dedicated effort for these cars. I did try to be resourceful and was lucky enough to find a guy who could fix my problem and stood behind it for years, much more than anyone else I took my problem too could do for me.

 

I didn't catch where you gave a thumbs up for the crossover in this thread. I did see a BS flag and a response to someone else mentioning his proven prodcut. All I can see you have been saying is BS and Jeff is full of it and stuck up about TGPs. Good for him, its better than saying the TGP is an overpriced bucket of crap that is tempermental and expensive to repair.

 

Yes you are more resourceful, you found a cheaper way to get something done. If you don't think that is resourceful then I'm sorry. Smarter? Maybe. Yeah, this is turning into a flame. I'm sorry for that too. I guess if I am going to take a stand for someone or something I might as well do it.

 

That whole FREE chip thing is worn out. Personally if someone is willing to give it away they are really wasting their time. The Chip itself is $275. We had a Camaro with a 6 speed conversion in the shop that needed to have the chip recalibrated for the speedometer. Just to get the chip to fix the speedo was $400. That particular car used an ecm very similar to the TGP.

 

:Sigh:

 

Sorry, I didn't want it to come to this. But it just really burned me when someone got on here and starting calling BS and fucking this and that.

 

I don't have a problem with being cheap either. The cheaper the better, as long as its right. And I've found that the cheapest isn't always the best. Somethings are hard to compare too. But I will shop around. My boss got a bedcover for his truck and the local truck shop. Paid around $400 plus tax. I shopped on line and found it for $290 shipped to the door and no tax. I did have to wait a week, but I saved alot of money for an equal product.

 

But in a world where I've had trans shops (and others) refuse to work on a TGP because it baffled them so, I will stand behind those who have put so much time into the TGP.

[Guest TurboSedan]

well said. i never wanted to start a flame war, but looking back i should have known this would happen. oh well. sorry to the fellow forum members for me starting some kind of soap opera.:? ahhh arguing....that's what forums are for right? j/k....altho it can lead to good info sometimes. maybe not this one tho.

 

the BS flag was in response to dbtk2's message, which i guess i took the wrong way.....like he was saying that ANY rebuilt crossover will crack unless it's a Jeff M crossover....which i think is, well, BS. i think other people can rebuild a good crossover too is all (wish me luck with mine hahaha). still, i think Jeff M's crossovers are probably the best you can get. but for the price, i'll pass. and i don't think you're butt buddies, maybe i just got a little pissy when i was basically called an asshole (IMO). but anyway, i'm not here to make enemies, i'm here to help people out.....really....

joshua

[Guest TurboSedan]

it's not you....it was me. and yeah, this thread probably should be locked. it's kind of a re-run of a thread that happened with Mick and others (myself included). don't feel bad.

joshua

[Chris A]

I don't really think it needs to be. :shock:

 

Yeah there was some mud, but we all had opinions. The GREAT part here is that we all realize its not the best situation, and we are all here for a good purpose. And even though we might disagree about HOW it gets done, we all appreciate the fact it IS gettting done!

 

I think a large part of why it went a little south is the language. I took it a little harshly with the bad words, probably too harshly. Malibu was only stating that he wasn't going to buy the products for the Prices they were selling for. Thats all fair. He went out and did it himself and hopefully will have a successful repair. 8)

 

It is kindof a rerun thread, one that I orignally took to heart because people were SAYING and MEANING ripoff and that the things that were being sold were wrong. (I don't remember who all was part of that) This sounded like the same kind of thing. As it is, its not and thats great. But like Josh said, we all have opinons, he was stating his and I was stating mine. I don't want anyone to be afraid to post, but if you post something controversial then its going to be an issue, because there will be someone else out there who thinks strongly otherwise.

[The Burning Rom]

Yeah there was some mud, but we all had opinions. The GREAT part here is that we all realize its not the best situation, and we are all here for a good purpose. And even though we might disagree about HOW it gets done, we all appreciate the fact it IS gettting done!

 

AMEN! 8)

[1badtgp]

Just my .02 as a Performance Shop Owner. Yes, there are many people out there that make products in different price ranges. BUt how many of them have een as thouroughly tested as Jeff M's parts? I'll use a common car, my Laser(re:Eclipse Clone). Standard DSM and a multitude of parts available. Even as something as simple as the BOV is critical to me. Most poeple would say you have a 1g, just crush mod the stock one! No, I want quality. Sure it's cheap and would work ok, but I want to to work great. Same with my Supra. I could just replace the head gasket with a stocker,but I want the quality of the HKS Metal HG. These are our personal shop vehicles. I also wouldnt do anything to a customers car I havent seen tested or personally tested myself.

 

As far as the chips thing, I can make them bby the tons. But that doesnt mean that they are half the quality of the Jeff M chips. He does countless hours of research to do what he does. If I were going to heavily mod the car, I would probably scrap the stock ecm all together and run the AEM EMS or maybe a Haltek universal, but for a daily driver I would say Jeff has it right on!! I'm sure his new chip will support much higher numbers as well, due to the new design for larger injectors and what not. Truthfully, I'll promote his products to the few TGP owners I know locally without fear of them getting screwed. Not to put you down Josh, but untill the product you have is put through the amount of thourough testing the products Jeff builds has gone through, I wouldnt promote yours. No offense.

 

One more thing. My shop does r&d on custom chips. It's a LOT of work. I mean a LOT!! Just on the upgraded SBEC's for the Turbo Dodges, I have logged over 600 hours of testing and work. Yes, 600 hours. And thats just 1 car. It does take more than a lot of people think, and the TGP was a very limited production vehicle, so supporting them is not really cost effective for businesses.

[Guest TurboSedan]

Not to put you down Josh, but untill the product you have is put through the amount of thourough testing the products Jeff builds has gone through, I wouldnt promote yours. No offense.

 

One more thing. My shop does r&d on custom chips. It's a LOT of work. I mean a LOT!! Just on the upgraded SBEC's for the Turbo Dodges, I have logged over 600 hours of testing and work. Yes, 600 hours. And thats just 1 car. It does take more than a lot of people think, and the TGP was a very limited production vehicle, so supporting them is not really cost effective for businesses.

 

no offense taken; it wasn't my product (my rebuilt crossover), it was rebuilt by RedZMonte who is also a vendor here on this forum. granted, it's probably the 1st TGP pipe he has rebuilt (he also owns a TGP), but he has exhuast shop experience (as far as i know...) and is only 1 hour from me. he's doing a Turbo DOHC setup right now and i can't wait to see that. the crossover *looks* great, and for $80 i sure can't complain. also, to tell you the truth i haven't installed it yet or tested it but for $80, if anything goes wrong with it i'm not going to be all pissed or anything. so i guess that's what i mean by being more resourceful - because of Shane (RedZ) really. Jeff's rebuilt crossover pipes on the other hand are a *bit* more $$$ than that, but yeah it's a proven product and comes with other things like distributor o-ring, directions, and i'm not even sure what else.

 

btw, do you have any upgraded SMEC's for an '89 Intercooled Turbo II 2.2/A555 5-speed Chrysler Lebaron GTS Turbo? i can't wait to drive my GTS and start modding that car....1st is the famous 1g DSM BOV, 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust, then grainger valve set to 13psi (working my way up of course from minimum boost using a boost & A/F gauge). yes i'm changing the subject on purpose

joshua

[1badtgp]

Right now I'm only doing the 90+SBEC's because that's the car I had available. Fwdperformance.com has a killer selection of modded smec's for a really low price. Otherwise, if you're a bit tech savvy, check out the yahoo group mopar_ecm. all we do is mod the chryco ecm's for the TD's. They have a program written by the guy who started the group called CHem that will allow you to mod the factory program. You will have to do some soldering to the board on your ecm, ,and build a simple interfeace(or purchase from another member) but it is very easy to do and you will be able to use ECM FLASH to write directly to the ecm any settings you want. It works great from what I have seen. It's like having a 1500 standalone without spending more than $50.

[Guest TurboSedan]

Right now I'm only doing the 90+SBEC's because that's the car I had available. Fwdperformance.com has a killer selection of modded smec's for a really low price. Otherwise, if you're a bit tech savvy, check out the yahoo group mopar_ecm. all we do is mod the chryco ecm's for the TD's. They have a program written by the guy who started the group called CHem that will allow you to mod the factory program. You will have to do some soldering to the board on your ecm, ,and build a simple interfeace(or purchase from another member) but it is very easy to do and you will be able to use ECM FLASH to write directly to the ecm any settings you want. It works great from what I have seen. It's like having a 1500 standalone without spending more than $50.

 

yeah, i'd like to convert to SBEC for SFI, but i'm really not sure how much better an SBEC system is over an SMEC. iTurbo is going SBEC with his '86 Omni GLH Turbo with a wiring harness out of a '90 Turbo minivan. i'm going to be shelling out about $400 to http://www.fwdperformance.com after i get the Cutlass on the road, and maybe some stuff from http://www.relentlessracing.com too. it's cool other people here are interested in other cars too...

joshua (driving an '87 Shelby Lancer Turbo II/5-speed at the moment....)

[dbtk2]

the BS flag was in response to dbtk2's message, which i guess i took the wrong way.....like he was saying that ANY rebuilt crossover will crack unless it's a Jeff M crossover....which i think is, well, BS. i think other people can rebuild a good crossover too is all (wish me luck with mine hahaha).

 

This is what I wrote:

 

Well, I don't know how well that will work but good luck for you. From what I have heard from Jeff M and others the only way to go is the Jeff M crossover. If you rebuild the original it is just going to re-crack again. Maybe yours was rebuilt differently, and I hope so for you because I hate to see you have to replace it again, but I think many people would rather buy the proven Jeff M crossover and spend the extra $.

 

I didn't say it was going to crack again. I said that from what I have heard from a lot of people (and I have no crossover experience for TGP's at all so it isn't saying much) is that if the original crossover is rebuilt or re-welded it is just going to break again. And like I said maybe yours was rebuilt differently and will last like the Jeff M. crossover, and also like I said, I hope it does because i would seriously hate to see you have to replace it again because I know it isn't the easiest thing in the world to do, and I am happy that you saved almost $400 doing it the way you did. I didn't mean to offend you in any way, and I am sorry if it sounded like I was being sarcastic or something because I was serious. I was just saying that I, and many others on here, and a lot of TGP owners elsewhere, would rather buy the proven Jeff M. crossover for the extra money just because it is proven and they know it won't (or at least shouldn't) crack or break. Because of this I don't know why you would raise a BS flag, but I can understand how you could interpret that how you did and raise the BS flag, its just that that isn't how I meant it. Sorry for the confusion, and if my thread in any way contributed to starting the flame war I am sorry for that also.

 

Shawn

[1trucavalier]

anyone can fix there own crossover. the only part that goes bad is the accordian crap that gm put on the special asc $20K plus vehicle. You can get 4" body 8" total flex couplings with 1 3/4 ID for $20 at http://www.jcwhitney.com. after that any decent welder can weld them on. Its not rocket science. $400 was out of my budget so instead I paid $47 total for the flex coupl and $40 for the welding. The chip on the other hand I won't even bother with. I am just gonna buy jeffs !

[1badtgp]

yeah, i'd like to convert to SBEC for SFI, but i'm really not sure how much better an SBEC system is over an SMEC. iTurbo is going SBEC with his '86 Omni GLH Turbo with a wiring harness out of a '90 Turbo minivan. i'm going to be shelling out about $400 to http://www.fwdperformance.com after i get the Cutlass on the road, and maybe some stuff from http://www.relentlessracing.com too. it's cool other people here are interested in other cars too...

joshua (driving an '87 Shelby Lancer Turbo II/5-speed at the moment....)

 

As far as what I've seen, the SMEC and SBEC are essentially the same thing, but the SBEC has a single board and the injectors batch fire.At least they do on my 90 SBEC. The SMEC seems a little less tempermental, and has already been thouroughly hacked by numerous TD guys, so I would say go SMEC.

[Chris A]

anyone can fix there own crossover. the only part that goes bad is the accordian crap that gm put on the special asc $20K plus vehicle. You can get 4" body 8" total flex couplings with 1 3/4 ID for $20 at http://www.jcwhitney.com. after that any decent welder can weld them on. Its not rocket science. $400 was out of my budget so instead I paid $47 total for the flex coupl and $40 for the welding. The chip on the other hand I won't even bother with. I am just gonna buy jeffs !

 

Rebuilding a crossover is like rebuidling anything else. Some have more wrong with them than others, and will incur higher costs. When you have a fixed price, you have to accomodate for these other factors. So, its not to say someone CAN'T fix it themselves, but there CAN be more to it than just slapping on some flex joints. FWIW, alot of the Braided flex joints are the same thing GM used (for the most part) except they are covered in a stainless mesh to help remove some of the stress from the joint.

 

Chris