fishman517 Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Hi I'm new to this forum, I built a Grand Prix Turbo while I was working at Mclaren Engines in 1988, I then went to work at ASC as their specialty vehicle mechanic/tech/fabricator. I have a lot of experience with these cars and I have fixed many of them but just can't seem to figure my own out. The problem I am having is stalling and not restarting. I have checked all the power and ground sources to ECM/DSI/Injectors and fuses in these circuits. It is intermittent, sometimes it will restart and sometimes it won't. I have tried another ECM/crank sensor/DSI/cleaned the grounds, ran it with the TECH 1 (no codes). When it won't start and you shut the key off the primary cooling fan cycles for about 30 seconds and stops, sometimes it will restart. I thought it was heat related but it has done the same thing cold. I also put a timing light on all the plug wires and it is getting spark. I am getting a noid light to see if the injectors are firing.If you have any ideas or this happened to you please respond. Thank-you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy K Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 do an ohm check of all injectors. have you done a fuel pressure test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman517 Posted June 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Vehicle started running bad about two years ago and I quit driving it. When I had time to work on it I pumped out all the old fuel and did a pressure/flow test at that time and it was fine, when changing the plugs I had two wet ones, so I did a leak down and it was dropping, changed those two injectors and ohmed the others and it ran fine. When I started having the stalling problem I ohmed the grounds found high resistance cleaned them and rechecked and they were .1 ohms. I kept a fuel pressure guage on itand a timing light on a plug wire. When I accelerate the engine the pressure increases as it is supposed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Hi I'm new to this forum, I built a Grand Prix Turbo while I was working at Mclaren Engines in 1988, I then went to work at ASC as their specialty vehicle mechanic/tech/fabricator. please stick around for a while. It is cool (an honor really) to have people here that actually were there building these cars when they first came out. I read something that rang a bell in my mind when you described that: http://www.w-body.com/forum/index.php?topic=79119.0 also, was there any exhaust smells under the hood recently? any black soot around the plenum? when was the last time you had the upper plenum off? how many miles are on the car? are you using the factory tune? I just ask these questions to get a better idea of whats been serviced lately and because I know that we will be able to figure this out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman517 Posted June 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Well, the exhaust was smelling bad, so I cut the cat out. It appeared that it was running rich. I am using a level 8 development chip, I should have a production one but haven't been able to find it. The crossover does not seem to be leaking but I should confirm that with a pressure and soapy water test. Last night I started the car and after 20/30 seconds it quit and wouldn't restart. When I shut the key off the primary cooling fan cycled for about 30 seconds.(I can't remember what that meant) So I put the fuel pressure guage,noid light and timing light on it and had my wife crank it. The noid light lit, the timing light flashed and there was 41 PSI of fuel pressure. I did a compression check and they were all 165 give or take a few LBS. I should put a meter to the injector hot and make sure it is getting the right voltage(which I don't know what it should be and haven't found it in the factory manual or the turbo supplement. In my book this car should run. So this morning I was out in the barn, so for grins I tried to start it. Guess what, it fired right up and died about 20/30 seconds later. And thank-you for the welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 so your level 8 chip. how does this compare to a normal stock chip? how much boost does this one run? I know that there was different levels from research done on the 88 pikes peak race car, and not sure, but think it was a 10psi chip. if you know cool stuff about the history of the TGP, can you post any scans of rare documents or share any stories about your experiences. also it would be cool to know more about your car. vin #, build date, color, interior and options. you say you actually built your own car while working at mclaren in 88? as in, you actually had a hand in assembling your own car with the turbo package from mclaren? THATS F'ING AWESOME!!! as for your car, all I can say is keep trying. I have been running into all kinds of problems myself with my own tgp's and today I found out why my late black/grey leather tgp stopped running. it already had issues with the motor and tranny and lots of miles on it, but it ran up until the EGR tube cracked. It was a replacement I got from Jeff M several years ago that cracked and then I got another one from Adam that I threw on there but it still didn't run right because, and I just found this out after freaking out and trying to change the knock sensor and having it break off in the block, but I should have just pulled the upper plenum off and I would have seen the hot gasses cut through the vac line to the map and also torched the wiring to the injectors. you can see all the soot that was in between the plenums. I even had some high heat stick on heat shielding over that wiring, but it wasn't on enough of it because the wire loom was all melted off there and the wires are all crispy. that car is fixable, but screw it. it needs the motor and tranny completely rebuilt. and my red tgp which ran awesome last fall, I think has the potential to soon be even faster than it was if I can only figure out some stuff with it. I was getting it to run 0-60 in 6.6 seconds and I think some of the injectors were on there way out too because 3 of them ohmed out less than 12. now I got 28# injectors in it today and went to start it after putting it all back together and the thing was not even wanting to stay running. I got my laptop with tunerpro and hooked it up and kept trying to start the car, but the TPS was reading 0.0 volts. pulled the ecm fuse, nothing. swapped out the tps, reset it again, and it actually ran but now its idling at 2000 rpm steady. just has me all confused now, so I am about to pull the plenum now and put back some good stock injectors, but decide to first try a tweeked jeff m chip and start it one more time. it fires up and holds a good idle with the 28#ers and everything looks good on the laptop also. voltage to the tps looks good. I take it for a drive and it still has some of the chattering at wot I have been getting for a while now, but at least I have it going down the road. at least I know now that I need to get that BIN and reburn that chip I got from Adam, because it obviously got X-rayed in the mail when he sent it to me or messed up somehow. I think my next step with this is to first get a fresh 255 lph fuel pump that I can rely on instead of the old one in there that the car came with. then obviously find out how to use the pocket programmer I got and the software figured out so I can reburn the chip designed for these injectors. then if it still shudders at wot then I am going to have to swap out the ICM and coils to see if that changes anything, and maybe check the plugs and wires. you just have to keep going through everything until you find it. seems like these cars are a bitch like that. I want that feeling again like last fall, it was awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman517 Posted July 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Well yesterday was golf day, so no work on the car. My car was bought by ASC as a executive driver, it was just a 3.1 LE without ABS and HUD.(thank god). When the project came to a close the people I worked with at ASC offered me a position there. I had collected alot of leftovers and really liked the cars, so I was on amission to build one. ASC actually used my car as a show car for various presentations and shows. My car is white with a ASC sunroof and grey interior. I purchased my car from ASC when it got in a fender bender when I was the vehicle management supervisor so I bought it. During show car season I worked in the paint/fab shop building show cars for GM,Ford,Chrysler,Honda/Toyota and pretty much anybody who had money. So I tore it apart and transformed it, it was easy for me because I built all the feasability,durability, pilot and Nascar pace cars at Mclaren. My car had 33,000 on it when I converted it and now it has 42,000. I have many leftover parts; egr tubes,body parts,attachment parts,heat shields,downpipes,and alot of misc. I will be on vacation for the next three weeks, so I probobly will be AWOL for a while. I did talk with some of the guys I used to work with and they seem to think I still have a ground issue, I kinda agree, unfortuneatley the only ones left are on the back of the block and are a bitch to get at, oh well I won't know if I don't check them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Just so I'm straight about this: You have tested for fuel + spark while the engine would not restart? Have you ohmed out all the injectors like someone else suggested above? When you do get it to run, do the "tap test" on the ECM and see if the engine stumbles or stalls. Do you remember or have any documentation about how many production TGP's were created for each model year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman517 Posted July 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 I have done an ohm test on the injectors all are 12.2 ohms +/- .1. The fuel pressure guage tells me the pump is working. As far as the ECM is concerned I have 3 and all 3 act the same. Believe me if it didn't make any sense as to why it is not running I would not be needing help, I have seen almost every failure you can imagine from 1/2 blown fuses to rags stuck in the intercooler. I think it will be a wire or ground just finding it will be the challange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 do you need another prom to try to rule that out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman517 Posted July 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Would like to try another prom, I have one but have been unable to find it. I have worked on it a little and found no ground on D-9 at the ecm connector will have to trace it to find the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishman517 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 The mystery is over! I finally had a chance to work on it some more and what I decided to do was to remove the injectors and put together a stand alone fuel system with a rail/regulator/pump and a push button injector driver. I sprayed them into a 5 gallon bucket. Out of 6 injectors 4 were not working at all, and they ohmed out at 12.2. I checked all the injectors I had and came up with a good set with a good spray pattern. I installed them and it fired right up and now it runs like a top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 can you check some injectors for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Glad you got it figured out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted September 12, 2009 Report Share Posted September 12, 2009 Pictures of said vehicle please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatMpk Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 I had the same problem, and now I'm in the process of putting my fuel lines and tank back into place. Step 1 Make sure thats its your fuel pump thats worn out, they dont always "go bad" but instead get very weak. Check/Change if necessary fuel filter, relays, vehicle wiring harness and connectors, grounds, Fuel Pressure Regulator, Spark plugs, and Plug Wires. My TGP would not start, idle, or run. The first fuel pressure guage reading I was getting 44lbs to the fuel rail, while starting, and it would drop down to 33 lbs, while idling. I replaced the fuel pressure regulator, and the car would hold pressure in the fuel rail just fine, thus letting the car start and idle perfect. Whenever I would go over 3,000 rmps now the car would begin to lose power. I replaced the fuel filter, and this only helped a little bit, leaving me with only what, the fuel pump itself. I removed the fuel line from the fuel sending unit, which it suppose to hold about 96 lbs. of pressure on that line, and there was no pressure on the line at all, which is a very common symptom of a bad fuel pump, once I get my tank all back in ill give ya an update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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