BXX Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Something I have been thinking about since I am in the process of needing to put in a new cradle and I am always looking to improve the suspension in the name of performance. I understand that engine and some road vibrations will be felt more, thats fine with me. Even with the FE3 cradle bushings, the cradle will still move independent from the body. Solid mounting it will help with steering response and overall feel. If you have been under many different cars, you will see that most have front subframes that are solid mounted to the body. Doing so without using metal versions of our bushings will actually raise the cradle about 3/4" from what it looks like which will help with control arm angle when lowered, solid mounting it like this will effectively lower the front end anyway. Has anyone else put any thought into doing this? The only thing I am worried about is the fact our cradles have large holes, which can allow the cradle to shift a shitload if its not secure enough.. The other idea I though about was finding a spot or 2 to drill holes through and run additional bolts up to the unibody to keep the shifting from happeneing under extreme cirumstances.. -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 If your worried, as you said you can try to drill more than 2 hole's. 3 holes will need to be a minimum. But you would also be hacking up a perfectly fine cradle, nothing I would do or suggest anyone doing. IMO, I wouldn't do it. I'd just buy the new bushings, or make your own out of poly, and put them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 If your worried, as you said you can try to drill more than 2 hole's. 3 holes will need to be a minimum. But you would also be hacking up a perfectly fine cradle, nothing I would do or suggest anyone doing. IMO, I wouldn't do it. I'd just buy the new bushings, or make your own out of poly, and put them in. Im going to shoot ES a email seeing about the possibility of having them maid. I have brand new rears and can get fronts cheap, but I dont want crappy stock rubber bushings... Projects required modifying, something I have no problem doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted To Boost Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Poly cradle bushings would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy K Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Don't they already have poly mounts? like the ones that GPchris got but didn';t share the info from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Meh, i looked at my new ones I had bought for the rear bushings. They are pretty damn stiff actually, so poly ones wont be too much stiffer, they will just live forever.. On another note, I was stripping the control arms and trans mount bracket off my new cradle at work today. Oh yeah, control arm bolts were seized to the sleeves.. Im so glad i dropped $300 on a Matco airhammer.. beat the hell outta them for a second with the air hammer and I got them out.. Horray for not having to cut and get new bolts!!!! After that was off, I started removing the old stock bushings. They were pretty decent, but I want new stuff for obvious reasons. What did I discover?? I now have a $120 paperweight!!! :evil: The hole the bushings go through is just about as bad I my current cradle.. .FUCK!!!! Gonna call LKQ tomorrow once I find my reciept and hopefully they will work with me and either refund my cash of bring me a good one. Kinda sucks because this cradle is actually very clean. But, I have another though.. Basically, make steel or aluminum versions of the stock bushings, but oversize them where it goes through the cradle. If I make the hole in the cradle another 1/4 or 1/2 larger in diameter, all the rust will be gone and I can make a clean rust free hole. It just rotted right where the stock bushings have a metal outer sleeve. That rotted together with the cradle, fusing them together and making use of stock bushings impossible... Soo, im off work tomorrow, and my task is simple. -Get measurements of how big new hole will need to be -Get measurements on OD of bushings and heights -Make a simple design based on those measuremets -Call a maching shop here in Brunswick to see if they can turn the peices for me The design will obviously be really simple... Just need someone with som material and a lathe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Oh, I will prolly have them made from steel... Im not conccerned about weight, it will cut costs down a lot, and I will be able to do about 3 tack welds on them to guarentee it stays secure. With the tack welds, if I need to remove the cradle, a simple die grinder will bust them and the cradle can come out.. I wonder if Adam can do them, he has access to a lathe at his job, right?? I suppose I will PM him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Measurements and design done.. didnt take long now to relearn to use AutoCAD again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSI_MuNkY Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I'm very skeptical about this... but I will bite.... What are the dimensions... I might be able to make them on the lathes at school... Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mra32 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 did you look at the thread about the poly subframe bushings that chris made? I found a set of Energy suspension body mounts that will likely work with our subframe. Even made a few Autocad drawings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mra32 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 oh and moving the cradle closer to the body of the car will not lower your car. at most, it will act as a band aid for wacky suspension geometry due to lowering in the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 oh and moving the cradle closer to the body of the car will not lower your car. at most, it will act as a band aid for wacky suspension geometry due to lowering in the front. well it loweres the body campared to the ground.. 3/4inch will not even come close to causing a problem.. and i want a solid mounted cradle, has every advantage for performance and response, and the only disadvantage is more vibrations... front cradles are isolated for ride quality, nothing more jamie, here isa crappy mspaint rendition, i forgot the size, but the center hole need to be the diameter of the cradle bolts. i forgot the exact size off hand.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 oh yeah how soon could you get a set made? and what about cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSI_MuNkY Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 So these solid steel mounts would leave the frame in the stock location right? The LQ1 comes close enough to the hood as it sits, I dunno how much clearance the 3100 or 3.1 has. As for time and cost... Time right now I can't promise anything before mid April and I have no clue about cost... There is a slim chance I can get access to a lathe before that time (not at school) but I don't want to make any promises. Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpchris Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Don't they already have poly mounts? like the ones that GPchris got but didn';t share the info from? They only make them for the rear bushings. I wasnt able to find any that worked with the front bushings. The factory bushings are just fine.. They are very strong. The subframe doesnt move.. If it did it would have to be realigned frequently but they will hold an alignment for almost ever. Poly would be great. It would eliminate the little movement it has without any issues.. I wouldnt do solid metal bushings. These subframes can be very fragile. Especially at the rear mounts. i also dont like the idea of raising the motor. Doing that would raise the center of gravity and modification to the steering column would be necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mra32 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 oh and moving the cradle closer to the body of the car will not lower your car. at most, it will act as a band aid for wacky suspension geometry due to lowering in the front. well it loweres the body campared to the ground.. 3/4inch will not even come close to causing a problem.. No it doesnt. It brings the cradle closer to the body, but the distance between the body and the ground depends entirely on the strut, or more precisely, the distance between the hub and the body (given you have the same size wheels and tires). Basically your car can only be lowered if you bring the hub up vertically relative to the car. Bringing the cradle up toward the car and bringing the hub up toward the car ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! </Tourettes guy reference> I'm not bagging on your idea, just correcting some misinformation. I even considered pursuing this myself but ended up just buying new mounts from GM. I'm sure you've already considered this, but how much room is there between your engine and anything above it like strut tower bars or an alternator hitting the hood? I know my alternator has an imprint on my hood liner but not sure how much room there actually is between the alternator and hood. Also is there actually a difference between fe1 and fe3 mounts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Ugh, whatever.. With stock struts and springs, yes, the cradle sitting closer to the body wont do anything.. But IM NOT USING STOCK SPRINGS, DUH!!! FE1 and FE3 bushings are different ONLY on the front cradle bushings. The rears are the same no matter what. I will double check, but the design with measurements are listed as a brief reference. Im gonna double check the heigth and make sure there wont be interference issues. If anything, I will prolly add 1/4" to them for a bit more clearance. Yes Jaime, these are steel units to go in a stock locations, but the cradle will need to be cut out a bit larger in my case to get rid of the rusted part. Chris, the subframe does MOVE under loads like turning, but it comes right back to where it should be, hence you dont need to align it consistantly. However, even with good bushings, the cradles are known for shifting and causing the alignment to be an issue after time. Just because the alignment is in tolerance doesnt mean its right I can put any alignment into the tolerence specs and have it pull and wear the hell outta tires Our cradles arent that weak. Solid mounting them to out already strong unibody will further reinforce everything, actually making it stronger since loads can be transfered from the cradle into the body. Ever notice how most solid mounted cradles look cheap but rarely bend?? Because loads are transfered into the body.. Regardless, if yall dont like the idea, thats fine and dandy. I do, so it what im doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSI_MuNkY Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I think this is one of those things that makes so little differnece you won't notice it on its own... But coupled with a bunch of other small mods (poly control arm bushings for example)the difference will be there. I think this is comparible to other models of cars installing subframe connectors. Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpchris Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Regardless, if yall dont like the idea, thats fine and dandy. I do, so it what im doing. Thats a good thing! Dont always listen to what everybody says, just take everything into consideration. Like I said i wouldnt do it cuz Ive seen our subframe actually break away at the mounts. Solidly mounting it would allow it to flex with the unibody... And our subframes do NOT like to flex. Remember our subframes also support the motor. If you ever notice, most solidly mounted subframes do not support a motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Most solidly mounted subframes DO support the engine and trans Im under cars all day at work.. I pay attention to stupid crap like that.. I dunno, im just so fascinated with how the suspensions and unibodies are.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpchris Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Most solidly mounted subframes DO support the engine and trans Im under cars all day at work.. I pay attention to stupid crap like that.. I dunno, im just so fascinated with how the suspensions and unibodies are.. Really? I know all highend FWD GMs do but Ive actually never seen any other cars that use the subframe to support the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Most solidly mounted subframes DO support the engine and trans Im under cars all day at work.. I pay attention to stupid crap like that.. I dunno, im just so fascinated with how the suspensions and unibodies are.. Really? I know all highend FWD GMs do but Ive actually never seen any other cars that use the subframe to support the engine. Pretty much all RWD unibody vehicles which have great weight and loads going on. A F-body for example. Subframe is made from the same thickness steel and even weighs a couple pounds less with a weaker front unibody. Hell, the steering gear on 3rdgens are mounted to the unibody and without a brace flex like hell. Mounting the cradle solidly will reinforce everything. And I dunno about you, but Ws actually have a pretty beefy front unibody compared to a lot of cars. Most imports also have solid mounted cradles (very few are isolated) and while they have a upper engine mount on the unibody, it hardly actually supports the engine. It kinda just stabilizes it. I have ZERO doubt there will be an issue, especially with me having a very beefy front strut tower brace to further reinforce everything and while my cradle rotted out at the mounts, the damn cars unibody at the mounts is fricken rock solid. Still have clean paint on it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSI_MuNkY Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Go even older and the sub frame had everything on them... My fathers 71 Nova has engine, suspension, steering components, hell, the whole front clip is supported by the sub frame. Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted March 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Yup, and even back then, the cradles werent built like tanks either.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSI_MuNkY Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 LOL that they weren't! My dad welded the seems on his subframe and now has to take it to a shop witha frame jig to get it bent back into shape... and he did short alternating welds! Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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