Ribbie Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 GREAT!!! So the fuse blowing problem seems to have dissapeared. The bad news: Diag (using SES) spits out code 42. Electronic Spark Timing circuit. AARRGG!!! I would like to fix this on my own. Don't have enough money to pay GM Tech prices. Anyone have any idea on possible fixes? Thanks again for anyone who helps. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade901 Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 What kind or car, model, engine is this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribbie Posted August 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Sorry, 92 Buick Regal GS, 3800 series 1 Was blowing ingnition fuse under hood on passenger side. That stopped, fuse does not blow anymore, now it just won't start. No start, smell fuel in muffler. Tried spraying throttle body cleaner into throttle body, not even a stumble. All fuses are good now. How do I check for spark? Could it be one of the coil packs, or the whole six pack (not sure if they are one piece)? Any help appreciated, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade901 Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Electronic Spark Timing (EST) To provide improved engine perfomance,fuel economy and control of exhaust emissions, the Electronic Control Module (ECM) controls spark advance (ignition timing) with the Electronic Spark Timing (EST) system. The ECM receives a reference pulse from the crankshaft sensor, and/or cam sensor (if equipped) which indicate engine rpm, crankshaft position and/or camshaft position. The ECM then determines the proper spark advance for the engine operating conditions and sends an EST pulse to the ignition module. A fault in the EST system will usually set a trouble code 42. So... If the crankshaft sensor is not able to send a pulse to the ECM, then the ECM is not able to send an EST pulse to the ignition module. I would check the crankshaft sensor and its wires. What you should do is purchase a ignition spark tester at your local autoparts store. Your aim is to find out if there is a spark/signal going to the spark plugs via the spark plug wires. Disconnect one spark plug wire at a time from the spark plug side and connect the spark tester on the spark plug end wire and clip it to the ground. Start the car and see if you can see a spark jumping. (Either have someone start the car while you try to observe the spark tester for any sparks OR you could clip the spark tester to a ground where you can see while you try to start the car.) Test the rest of the spark plug wires. If you don't get any sparks on any wires, more than likely the coils are fine and it is just not getting power from the ignition module. What I would do at this point would be to check all fuses/relay in the engine bay and fuse box inside the car. I would try to look at the back of the fuse/box which is located in the engine bay because I have some intermittent electrical problem and found out that one wire is rubbing another wire. What I'm suspecting right now, is that the wires could have been burned out already and so connecting the fuse would not blow anymore. Try to disconnect any additional wirings for any accessories that you may have added recently. Just a note: Finding electrical short/broken wire could be expensive as they charge you per hour tracing those wires.. If you have time then do it yourself. A second car would be helpful while you try to fix this car. I'd suggest to write down on a piece of paper on which wire goes to where ..just for your reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribbie Posted August 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Thanks for the info!! I have removed everything that did not belong originally. Problem still persists. Turns over, and will not start/run. So right now I am going to check for spark. Any easy way to do so without purchasing something from the store? No spark on any cylinders means the IM is not getting power, where to go from here? No spark on two of the cylinders means the IM is junk, and time to replace it. Is there a relay for the ignition switch? And how do you test relays? Any other possibilities? I want to narrow this problem down ASAP. I want this beaut of a car on the road. Thanks in advance. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade901 Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 No spark on any cylinders means the IM is not getting power, where to go from here? Check and test the crankshaft sensor and wires. No spark on two of the cylinders means the IM is junk, and time to replace it. Not necessarily the IM is junk, if there is some spark on other cylinders then try to swap the coil and see if the other coil gives out spark now and you will know that you have other coil that needs replacement. And how do you test relays? http://www.the12volt.com/relays/relays.asp 86 and 85 should have continuity. 30 and 87a should have continuity (not energized). 30 and 87 should be open (not energized). When you apply current on 86 and 85 (posive and negative on each side), then the switch should connect 30 and 87 (30 and 87 should have continuity). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribbie Posted August 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Thanks again for your troubles. Where is the crank shaft sensor? Right next to the main pully, right? It was replaced in the winter, could it have gone bad already? What am I looking for when testing it? If two of the cylinders are not getting spark, then would it not be the coil? The ignition module is under the coils, accessed from underneath correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade901 Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Thanks again for your troubles. Where is the crank shaft sensor? Right next to the main pully, right? It was replaced in the winter, could it have gone bad already? What am I looking for when testing it? If two of the cylinders are not getting spark, then would it not be the coil? The ignition module is under the coils, accessed from underneath correct? I am not sure where the crankshaft sensor is on your car but it might located in Right Hand Front of Engine, above Oil Filter. Check this link out to test the crankshaft sensor http://chiltondiy.com/Tour/EgRepair.html You might want skip the testing for duty cycle. Note: If your engine has a camshaft sensor, check that as well since it goes hand in hand with crankshaft sensor. If two of the cylinders are not getting spark, then would it not be the coil? True, but just try to swap the good coil in place of the bad coil and see if you have signal now. If you are not getting signal still even when using a good coil then the Ignition Module is the culprit. The ignition module is under the coils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribbie Posted August 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 Slade901, Here is the deal, was cranking the motor to see if there was any spark, there was none. Did notice a wire was arcing against the block under the ignition module. Pink wire with black stripe on it, was the culprit. What is that wire? You can see it leading to alot of components in the fuse box under the hood, as well as the alternator. Just before the fuse stopped blowing, back when it was. I think that the connections in the fuse box were shorted together from me pulling the fuses out and putting new ones in. At one point smoke came from the blowing fuse (ignition) location. Is it possible that the short could have blown the ignition module, and nothing else? I am buying an ignition module tomorrow. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade901 Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 Slade901, Here is the deal, was cranking the motor to see if there was any spark, there was none. Did notice a wire was arcing against the block under the ignition module. Pink wire with black stripe on it, was the culprit. What is that wire? You can see it leading to alot of components in the fuse box under the hood, as well as the alternator. Just before the fuse stopped blowing, back when it was. I think that the connections in the fuse box were shorted together from me pulling the fuses out and putting new ones in. At one point smoke came from the blowing fuse (ignition) location. Is it possible that the short could have blown the ignition module, and nothing else? I am buying an ignition module tomorrow. Thoughts? The wire that you mentioned arcing against the block. Make sure you check that wire for open or cut insulation and try to move it away from the block and if possible wrap part of it with some rubber electrical tape. If you have seen smoke near the ignition then some wires might have fused together and needs to be checked first. I don't think your ignition module is shot. Check for the wires first around the ignition where you saw the smoke coming from. Some wires are connected with a fuseable link. They look like about a inch of black insulation wrapped on the wire. When fuseable links are burned out, you can test it by pulling the wire in question and if the fuseable links is burned out they stretch like a rubber band. BTW, do you know how much is an Ignition Module cost? Around $200 - $300. So, check the wirings first near where the smoke came out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribbie Posted August 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 Checked everything, could not see any fusible links around there at all. Re-wrapped the wire in question, and continuity seems to be there. Where abouts should I look for fusible links? There was no spark on any of the coils. How do I test to see if the ignition module is getting power/signal? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slade901 Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 Checked everything, could not see any fusible links around there at all. Re-wrapped the wire in question, and continuity seems to be there. Where abouts should I look for fusible links? There was no spark on any of the coils. How do I test to see if the ignition module is getting power/signal? Cheers Here's a link for you on testing the ignition module. Only follow the test where it says the engine should be off since your engine is not even running. http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may97/techtips.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribbie Posted August 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 Good information, but now the kicker. Where do I find the wiring diagram? Does anyone know the pinout of the connector at the ignition module? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmrulz4u Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 Here: CCCI = Computer Controlled Coil Ignition Module A(white) - Electronic Spark Control Output Signal from ECM Module to CCCI Module B(tan/black) - Ignition Module Bypass Control Signal from ECM Module to CCCI Module C(light blue/black) - Crankshaft Reference Output from CCCI Module to ECM D(purple/white) - Crankshaft Reference Pulse Output from CCCI Module to ECM E(white) - Tachometer Output from CCCI F(black) - Camshaft Output Signal from CCCI Module to ECM G(dark blue/white) - Crankshaft Sensor Output to CCCI Module H(light blue/white) - Crankshaft Sensor Output to CCCI Module J(brown/white) - Camshaft Sensor Output Signal to CCCI Module L(black/red) - Reference Pulse Input Low from ECM M(grey/red) - Camshaft/Crankshaft/Sensor Ground through CCCI Module N(white/black) - CCCI Module 10 volt Output to Camshaft/Crankshaft Sensors P(pink/black) - Fused Feed to CCCI Module THAT's IT! Don't ask me why they skip letters "I", "K", and "O"...probably to reduce confusion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ribbie Posted August 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Heres the update. :x Fixed the wire, no more arcing. Tried to test the crank sensor from the ignition module connector and got 44.0 M Ohms. I read somewhere that it should be around 50 K Ohms. Anyone know for sure? Then I decided to see if I had any injector pulse by hooking up a test light to the connector of one of the injectors. Used the black with white wire and got nothing while cranking. So here we are: Cranking no start Crank sensor is reading 44 M Ohms Injectors are not getting signal (if I tested them right, anyone?) Thoughts, assumptions, conclusions? Thanks again guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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