1997 GTP TCS AND ABS?

[Addicted to eaton]

OK when I got the car. Putting it to the floor on a take off it was chirp here and there and LOW TRAC light would flash. And abs would flash low trac if you stomped on the breaks and it wouldn’t skid and flash LOW TRAC. Now if I start the car and stay in town and smash the breaks from 45 they work fine like they shuld flashing Low trac and will not skid. Sitting at a light and smash it. It breaks the tires loose like no other and the motor will “Shut down†for a split second and it will usaslly continue to roast the tires off (TCS NOT WORKING). But will never turn the low trac light on like it used to. If you go about 65-70 ABS light comes on and TCS doesn’t do that whole shut the motor down thing. And you will skid if you hit the breaks to hard. Id like to fix this. Cause I like TCS And ABS lol. Here is a shitty phone video showing what it does befor going over 65... smashing it on a take off

 

[slick]

Probably need a new wheel bearing/hub assembly, or two.

[Addicted to eaton]

Could it be the rear.. Because that would make since

[1990lumina]

Could be any of them as far as the ABS part. However I don't know if just the front two sensors are used to detect wheel spin or if one sensor goes bad both systems are disabled regardless.

[Regal_GS_1989]

I would figure that all the wheel sensors are used to detect wheel spin. If it was just the fronts, then by rights, if your spin both wheels the traction control should never kick in. It could really be any one of the 4, but if you are having problems with the rear, then that may be your source.

[digitaloutsider]

A '97 GTP does not have traction control.

[Cutlass350]

A '97 GTP does not have traction control.

Hmm, looks like you're right. Seems like TCS was added to the GTP in '98. TCS was standard on the '97 GP except for the '97 GTP version.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/1997-to-2003-pontiac-grand-prix.htm

 

Regardless of TCS or not, it doesn't make a difference in this case.

 

If you read the owners manual for just about any car with ABS (and or TCS, PCS, etc) it will say the same thing:

All four tires must be replaced at the same time with the same exact model and size of tire.

 

So, first things first.

1) Is every tire exact the same in make, model, size, and wear? From the ABS light coming on at 65mph+, my guess is that they are not.

2) Make sure that every tire is with 5lbs of every other tire.

 

If 1 and 2 are fine, then there's really only one option that makes sense, read the codes. Some Autozone stores do it for free. A dealer or garage will charge ~$50 to $100. But, it sounds like an intermittent problem. So, a code reader could be a good investment. I think the cheap Acton ABS code reader goes for between $200 and $300.

 

I just bought the laptop-based OBD-II scanner software that can also read (some of) the extended GM CAN-bus parameters (?$300?). You need a laptop and the extended parameter software is still in beta condition. But, It worked well enough to tell me the code when my ABS/TCS/PCS went bad (bad main electronic module). And, when I got the rebuilt module back, the software read the code again to tell me that I had to do a steering wheel calibrate procedure for the PCS (stability control). So, it may not be the best software out there, there may be better ones, but the that I got worked well enough for what I needed it for. And, it saved me from a $2K+ Dealer repair bill.

 

BTW: I mentioned before that tire sizes are like pants sizes, a tire size like a 205/65/16 is a *general murky* target at best. Just look at tirerack.com and check for yourself.

[1990lumina]

The ABS systems in these cars isn't sensitive enough to care if the tires are EXACTLY the same, etc..

[Addicted to eaton]

LOL... 97GTP does to have TCS... In our car's you Can't turn it off. 98+ had the button. So yes they do have TCS

[GP1138]

By your same rationale I could say that my '95 GP SE had TCS because the Low Trac light would flash when my tires skidded. But it didn't, it was just tied in with the ABS system to show when I had lost traction.

 

I don't think your car has TCS. Where did you come up with your statement about not being able to turn it off?

[MonteCarloDude]

I don't think your car has TCS.

x2

So yes they do have TCS

No they do not have traction control. The low trac light come on whenever the ABS kicks in, Im willing to bet money on it, My car has the low trac light.

[5speedz34]

The low-trac light comes out when wheel spin is detected or in a skid, you know for stupid people. 97 cars have the same ABS system as Gen 1's.

[Addicted to eaton]

Really? Odd... ferns and about 10 other people on www.KCPMC.net said it has TCS....

[5speedz34]

If you want to consider ABS a traction control system....

[Addicted to eaton]

well it gets rid of wheel spin.

[White93z34]

well it gets rid of wheel spin.

 

..... when you are skidding on ice maybe....

[digitaloutsider]

Really? Odd... ferns and about 10 other people on www.KCPMC.net said it has TCS....

 

You can tell them I said they're full of shit.

[Addicted to eaton]

....idk guys honestly I remeber my car not spinning out......getting on it from a light it wouldn't spin. the LOW trac light would flash Now it will light them up for a block and never flash that light once

[5speedz34]

Wheels that are locked up while braking is not wheel spin. Wheel spin is while accelerating the wheels are moving.

[Cutlass350]

If you read the owners manual for just about any car with ABS (and or TCS, PCS, etc) it will say the same thing:

All four tires must be replaced at the same time with the same exact model and size of tire.

 

So, first things first.

1) Is every tire exact the same in make, model, size, and wear? From the ABS light coming on at 65mph+, my guess is that they are not.

2) Make sure that every tire is with 5lbs of every other tire.

 

The ABS systems in these cars isn't sensitive enough to care if the tires are EXACTLY the same, etc..

My original reply correct. You're wrong.

BTW: I don't like it when people misquoting me, or imply that I said something that I didn't say. That's wrong and not respectful.

 

I'm curious. Since you made that statement, I was wondering what you know ABS systems, how they work, the algorithms they use, and other electro-mechanical control/response systems? I do this type of stuff (control/response) for a living and taught it for a while. So, I'm "rather" familiar with ABS systems and their designs.

 

 

I can't stress the following statement enough:

All ABS systems require that ALL FOUR tires have the same circumference within a certain percentage. Again, check the owners manual!

 

 

That percent will vary from ~2% to ~6% depending on the exact ABS system. For many reasons, those figures are not made public. However, the tolerances are made known to a select group. Also, anyone with basic electronics knowledge could figure out a way to test for the percentages. So, no big secret. And, I'm not making a statement that couldn't be verified with ease by hundreds of thousands of people (Elec Engrs, and even many thousands of high-school students).

 

Note that the TCS/PCS systems often require much more tighter tolerances because of the way they work.

 

*In general*, 3-5% is the percentage that people widely "throw out". But, now, let's talk about real life and tolerances. Yes, in real life there are tolerances. That means that tires made at the same time have different circumferences. Also, they wear differently. they heat/cool differently, they expand/contract differently, and so on. So, that "3%" that people like to use is really to account for the real-life differences that happen in the tires when all four are replaced at the same time.

 

But, that doesn't mean that people don't win the lottery and "win" at Russian Roulette. People do get lucky. But, there's a huge difference between "being lucky" and doing things correctly and intelligently.

 

 

On my Stang (that has the 97 Cobra brake system with ABS), I need 17" rims up front to clear my 13" rotors. But, I like to drive it about once a month in the winter if the roads and weather are "okay". My Stang's summer ultra performance tires are a death trap in temps below ~45 degrees. The manufacture says that, and that is how the tires are in reality. Again, that doesn't mean that lucky people can't use ultra performance tires in the winter and not die. It just means that they are foolish, and lucky. I try to avoid being foolish or depending on luck.

 

In New England, even during the "nice winter days", in reality, there will still be icy and slick spots. So, I use 4 Blizzaks on my Stang during the winter. But, 17" Blizzaks are not cheap, and Blizzaks *ice effectiveness* is limited to approx the first 1/2 of the thread. You also want/need tread depth in a snow tire. Therefore, I don't let my snows get very worn down. Add that in with their soft compound and high wear rate, and that means their cost per use goes way up. Therefore, on the back, I use 15" rims and the cheaper 15" Blizzak tires. But, I knew and checked the circumference specs of both tires before I bought them. Also, even more importantly, it gets me a thinner tire in the back. Which is exactly what I want in a RWD car in the winter!

 

Again, there a decent chance that even among the same tire model, the spec for the circumference will vary over the years. So, that tire you bought 4 years ago, may not have the same circumference spec as the same exact model that is sold today. Four years is a long time in consumer engineering of products. Chances are at least one change has been made during that time.

 

 

Hope the above helps.

 

 

WARNING: On Soapbox:

Like many other things, on the web, there's a ton of BS and incorrect information out there. Before, you had the anti-ABS and anti-AirBag morons spamming the web and forums with pure and total BS about ABS and airBag systems. To be fair, I will say that a very small number (?~1%?) of the ABS and airBag systems never should have been on the market. The Teves ABS system is a good example. When the pressurized bladder in the ABS wore out and got a leak (~5-10 years of use), then a person had ~3 brake pedal presses before the car lost it's front brakes. IMHO, a death trap on wheels for the driver and anyone near that car.

 

And, you also had flaming ******** that made up BS stories for the heck of it. I remember the LS1 post about how the guy's brother, who was an ASE mechanic at a GM dealer, played a joke on another mechanic and when the 2nd mechanic was under the dash, the poster's brother hooked up the battery charger to the battery and set off the air bag. WHAT THE *****?? There's a better chance of flying pig coming out of your nose when you sneeze than that being true. I blasted the ***** out if that ***. Then again IMHO, if anyone believes any story they read on LS1, LS2, etc, then they also likely own swamp land in Florida that one day "will make them zillionaires".

 

And, the next time you read about an "air bag just going off", ask to see the person's 30 million dollar house that they bought from the law suit. Even the stupidest lawyer could get someone a *ton of money* for an accidental air bag release (that was in a 100% stock properly maintained car). Note: If people work on their own cars, and they damage or screw up the air bag sensors and their mountings, then that's their own fault. In the junk yard, I've seen air bag sensors that people clearly stepped on and where angled slightly down instead of being perfectly horizontal. I don't know if the sensors were like that before the car was junked. But, I could see a foolish person stepping on the air bag sensor (that is often clear marked) while yanking/putting an engine in. I've stood on radiator supports many times over the years during engine R&Rs.

 

FWIW: Just about all of the air bag systems today are fully electronic and do away with remote sensors like that. And, BTW, since the last 90's, GM has had a "black box" that stored data before any air bag deployment. Just about all companies are like that now. That's one reason you see fewer and fewer ******'s making the news about their air bag "just going off" and how they are suing. Now, people like that often end up in jail for fraud!

 

Just some stuff for thought.

Off Soapbox

 

Joe - Computer/electrical/mechanical engineering geek.

[GP1138]

The ABS systems in these cars isn't sensitive enough to care if the tires are EXACTLY the same, etc..

My original reply correct. You're wrong.

BTW: I don't like it when people misquoting me, or imply that I said something that I didn't say. That's wrong and not respectful.

 

I'm curious. Since you made that statement, I was wondering what you know ABS systems, how they work, the algorithms they use, and other electro-mechanical control/response systems? I do this type of stuff (control/response) for a living and taught it for a while. So, I'm "rather" familiar with ABS systems and their designs.

 

So, if all of what you said is so important, why would the system not throw a light when I had my old GP and I ran three mis-matched tires, one of a totally different width? Also, they are not the original size tires that were meant for the car, it was meant to have 215's, I believe, and they were 225's, or something similar like that. Why would this not cause a warning light?

 

I think you're making a bit too much of a deal of what Jeff said, and I don't see the need to be offended.

 

[birdman]

ive run 4 different tires on my lumina all worn down different levels and never once had the abs light come on, and if what you state is true then every time someone gets a low tire there abs light should come on because that is going to change the outside circumference more than going from a bald tire to a brand new tire. i bet if i let all the air out of one of my tires and drove it flat the abs light wouldnt come on. or what about mini spares, iv ridden with people who have had them on with no abs light, i would think someone that has your level of Computer/electrical/mechanical engineering knowladge would have thought about that.