BXX Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 Well Brain and I posting in the WE thread is just getting a pain to deal with, and BIG BULLS, you would be helpful here.. Basically I thread for us with Tuners and helping with Tuning and sharing some knowledge and experience and ofcourse torubleshooting.. Basically anything to do with the tuners and tuning.. And to continue off.,... Brian, I did change both the WOT shift both on MPH and RPM.. Either one isnt overriding the other like i anticipated, or I have one of them not matching the other.. The only other thing I can think of causing the 6Krpm+ shift is the trans shift pressures pretty much being maxed out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 copied from the other thread: (edited for tire size) converting rpm to mph: Case study- '96 Cutlass 3100, 1st gear shift point Go down the line: Desired shift point = 5800 rpm rpm setting (adjusted approx) = 5500 1st Gear ratio = 2.492:1 Chain drive = 1:1 (null) Final Drive Ratio = 3.33:1 Tire Pulse/mile (revs/mile) 225/55/17 = 754 5500 / (2.492*3.33) = 5500/9.7236= 565.6 RPM *60 = 33938 revs/hr at the trans output shaft 33938 rev/hr * (1mile/754rev) = 45.0 mph I would try this 5500 rpm shift, do a test and see where the *actual* shift lies in real life. Adjust as needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 FTR I wanted my 1-2 shift in the 6200 rpm area, and I believe my program is set to shift at 5900 rpm and whatever MPH I calculated to. I don't have the HPT program on my work PC but I'll try to download it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRONDOG442 Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 Well Brain and I posting in the WE thread is just getting a pain to deal with, and BIG BULLS, you would be helpful here.. Basically I thread for us with Tuners and helping with Tuning and sharing some knowledge and experience and ofcourse torubleshooting.. Basically anything to do with the tuners and tuning.. And to continue off.,... Brian, I did change both the WOT shift both on MPH and RPM.. Either one isnt overriding the other like i anticipated, or I have one of them not matching the other.. The only other thing I can think of causing the 6Krpm+ shift is the trans shift pressures pretty much being maxed out... Brain FTW !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venom Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 Well Brain and I posting in the WE thread is just getting a pain to deal with, and BIG BULLS, you would be helpful here.. Basically I thread for us with Tuners and helping with Tuning and sharing some knowledge and experience and ofcourse torubleshooting.. Basically anything to do with the tuners and tuning.. And to continue off.,... Brian, I did change both the WOT shift both on MPH and RPM.. Either one isnt overriding the other like i anticipated, or I have one of them not matching the other.. The only other thing I can think of causing the 6Krpm+ shift is the trans shift pressures pretty much being maxed out... Brain FTW !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted June 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 DAMMIT... I kept spelling it Brain and had to keep backspacing and correcting it... One slipped though though fuckin grammar nazis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted June 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 Yeah, I would really love to get my shift down some... My buddy in Mansfield has the tuner setup right now, I need to get it back from him so I can change the rpm and speed a bit anbd datalog it... That, and I need to delete the MIL reporting for a bunch of codes I forgot and of course take a look at some much more agressive timing.. Can you post the timing map you were talking about Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 While looking at your HPT file, I realized the HPT table is set-up reverse of the Powertuner. I can copy it to csv or xml but you'll have to swap the X and Y axis to be able to visually compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 My experience with the DHP unit comes from playing with a 2000 GTP with basic bolt-ons (and the 65-E) and a 96 Beretta with a 3400 swap and basic bolt-ons (with a 60-E). The 65-E GTP appears to take mph as the primary shiftpoint at WOT, but this CAN be moved around/fine tuned with RPM. Basically, I think it uses mph as the primary trigger, but double checks it to ensure that the correct RPM has also been reached. BUT.......... This is not true of the 60-E Beretta. I tuned Canada's car (I only did shift tables......we had little time and just stuck with very slightly modded 3100 ign. and fuel tables) using rpm as the primary WOT trigger, with part throttle tables and kickdown limits all being set via mph entries. This is backed up, by another Beretta owner who has done multipl gearing swaps (prior to doing an OBDII harness swap and buying a DHP unit), and while dropping from the stock 2.93 FDR to a 3.33 (later a 3.42), DRASTICALLY changed kickdown rpm limits and part throttle stuff, his WOT shifts stayed the same...........although at the time, we figured he'd be into his rev limiter at the WOT 1-2. Soooooo..... A few notes: 1) I found that the 1-2 shift lags and does not trigger until around 300rpm AFTER the set limit (two other L-Body owners that I know of have found the same thing). To get Canada's car to shift at at an indicated 6000rpm (redline, and also where his particular 3400 would start some mild valve-float), I had to TRIGGER the 1-2 shift at 5650rpm (the stock limit was 5350rpm). 2-3 offers MUCH less lag through, and triggering it at 5950rpm nailed the 2-3 dead up on redline.............you are accelerating FAR slower after all. Likewise, his 3-4 is set at 5450rpm, which goes RIGHT off (129mph LOL!!). 2) The DHP 1.5 settings for a Beretta WERE based off of mph..........and while they changed the downshift points a little, they did ZERO for upshifts. 3) It takes some work (and intelligent forethought) and a LOT of testing (which means speeding and just generally breaking the law) to nail things dead on. Don't be surprised if it takes a while to get this how you want it. Just be sure that you have a safe venue to do WOT runs and get scans 4)............and finally...........be aware that a FEW L-Body owners were running into an issue after doing 3400 swaps where the car would lag a LOT.........I know of 3 guys who did the swap and even with STOCK shift tables would kiss the 6K factory limiter on occaision. And NOBODY is sure at this point what causes that to happen (although *MY* guess is that some have healthier torque convertors than others). So, before I start with recomendations, I have a couple of Q's......... 1)What engine do you have?? L82, LA1, Hybrid??? 2)What mods do you have? Be detailed.....include type of filter on a custom intake, type of muffler/cat/resonator (and piping type/diameter) on the exhaust etc etc etc. 3)Do you have any oddities? By this, I mean, does the car stumble, or feel like it falls on it's face at a specific rpm. Answer these, and I'll see what I can do.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 Oh yeah............what's your rev limiter set at and what kind of valvetrain are you running (cam/valvewsprings etc)???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 copied from the other thread: (edited for tire size) converting rpm to mph: Case study- '96 Cutlass 3100, 1st gear shift point Go down the line: Engine rpm = 5500 1st Gear ratio = 2.42:1 Chain drive = 1:1 (null) Final Drive Ratio = 3.33:1 Tire Pulse/mile (revs/mile) 225/55/17 = 754 5500 / (2.42*3.33) = 5500/8.0586= 682.5 RPM *60 = 40950 revs/hr at the trans output shaft 40950 rev/hr * (1mile/754rev) = 54.3 mph I would try this 5500 rpm shift, do a test and see where the *actual* shift lies in real life. Adjust as needed. Your case study has some holes in it........... 1st gear is a 2.921:1 ratio, not a 2.42. Next, the average 225/55R17 tire is ~775revs per mile. Your math is likely correct for a perfectly round object, but the contact patch nulifies this. On average, a radial tire has ~3% LESS circumference than a perfect circle described by it's metric sizing (note the relationship to your 754 and the ACTUAL 775 number these tires have ). Go check out tirerack.com if you don't believe me So..........60mph is 7546rpm, which means the quoted 5500 is more like 43.74mph. BUT The vast majority of 60-E's offer a certain amount of slip even with the torque convertor in "lockup".............usually in the realm of 5% or a little more...........so, 43mph becomes 40mph (or 41). BUT See my post above about when to TRIGGER said shifts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted June 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Oh, specs on my car 164K L82 (smallport) 3" FWI, Spectre brand filter (flows same as K&N, just not easily cleaned) 2.25" (LQ1 sized) catback. dual 2.25" Flowmaster 40 series delta flow mufflers Engine is in grea tune, never misses a beat. I make sure everything is good to go before I start beating up my car. Fuel filter is brand new, delco platinum plugs, wires. Complete induction and fuel system carbon cleaned. Like I said, I make sure my car is in top tune. On another note, but my trans is a GM Goodwrench crate engine. Not many miles on it at all. It was installed by the previous owner right before i got the car... All the shifts are pretty damn quick, especially during part throttle and WOT... 2-3 is the quickest, but the 1-2 is no slouch at all. Yes, I am being picky, but something tells me there are high 15s easily in my car if the tuning is just right.. I have beated GAGTs on this tune so far, which is a big difference than the stock tune. Its been very noticable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 copied from the other thread: (edited for tire size) converting rpm to mph: Case study- '96 Cutlass 3100, 1st gear shift point Go down the line: Engine rpm = 5500 1st Gear ratio = 2.42:1 Chain drive = 1:1 (null) Final Drive Ratio = 3.33:1 Tire Pulse/mile (revs/mile) 225/55/17 = 754 5500 / (2.42*3.33) = 5500/8.0586= 682.5 RPM *60 = 40950 revs/hr at the trans output shaft 40950 rev/hr * (1mile/754rev) = 54.3 mph I would try this 5500 rpm shift, do a test and see where the *actual* shift lies in real life. Adjust as needed. Your case study has some holes in it........... 1st gear is a 2.921:1 ratio, not a 2.42. Next, the average 225/55R17 tire is ~775revs per mile. Your math is likely correct for a perfectly round object, but the contact patch nulifies this. On average, a radial tire has ~3% LESS circumference than a perfect circle described by it's metric sizing (note the relationship to your 754 and the ACTUAL 775 number these tires have ). Go check out tirerack.com if you don't believe me So..........60mph is 7546rpm, which means the quoted 5500 is more like 43.74mph. BUT The vast majority of 60-E's offer a certain amount of slip even with the torque convertor in "lockup".............usually in the realm of 5% or a little more...........so, 43mph becomes 40mph (or 41). BUT See my post above about when to TRIGGER said shifts Yeah, I mistakened a 9 for a 4. At that time of night, I expect that. *I'm* well aware of triggering shifts before the desired point. From the other thread, he wanted a 5800 rpm shift, so I recommended 5500 to be set. I thought that info was transferred to here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Oh, specs on my car 164K L82 (smallport) 3" FWI, Spectre brand filter (flows same as K&N, just not easily cleaned) 2.25" (LQ1 sized) catback. dual 2.25" Flowmaster 40 series delta flow mufflers Engine is in grea tune, never misses a beat. I make sure everything is good to go before I start beating up my car. Fuel filter is brand new, delco platinum plugs, wires. Complete induction and fuel system carbon cleaned. Like I said, I make sure my car is in top tune. On another note, but my trans is a GM Goodwrench crate engine. Not many miles on it at all. It was installed by the previous owner right before i got the car... All the shifts are pretty damn quick, especially during part throttle and WOT... 2-3 is the quickest, but the 1-2 is no slouch at all. Yes, I am being picky, but something tells me there are high 15s easily in my car if the tuning is just right.. I have beated GAGTs on this tune so far, which is a big difference than the stock tune. Its been very noticable Ok, so we have a W-Body L82 with some mild breathing mods. Going from this, *I* would recomend a ~5950rpm 1-2 shift, a ~5850rpm 2-3 shift and (due to it not making more than 135whp) a 5500rpm (or less) 3-4. I would NOT go higher than 5500 for 3-4 at this point, simply because that is 120-121mph, and your car would be stuck at high rpm for a LONG time.......... This equals high oil temps and coolant temps, and is generally not the best idea....... To get these shifts, *start* with a 5600rpm 1-2 WOT trigger and a 5800rpm 2-3 trigger, and stick 3-4 right at the 5500 mark. Then shuffle around as needed. I would also likely leave the rev limiter at 6000rpm (try a 6025 rpm high, 5975 rpm low threshold.......high is when it cuts, low is when the injectors re-enable) since you do not have an upgraded valvetrain, OR the mods to make power past 6K. I have heard that the 3X00 Gen III valvetrain is good to 6200 (supposedly the Gen II is as well, but WHY ), but my experience shows that most Gen III's with stock valvesprings and cam will start seeing valve float in the 6000-6100 range, with a very few starting as early as 5800......... After setting these, find a suitable venue and TEST. Make SURE that the shifts are going off at the desired rpm, and also be aware that on a 60-E, the 1-2 shift will float round a little bit (as the trans heats up)..........so try for a 5950 shift, but just make sure it stays OFF the rev limiter no matter what (like I said, it can move 50-100rpm in either direction as the trans fluid heats up............and will usually be a little HIGHER if you do a full-stall powerbraked launch as that heats up the torque convertor the most). As a hint..........be SURE to do a full stall launch to ensure that the 1-2 shift triggers PRIOR to 6K Now...........step 2. A tranny that bangs off ideal high rpm WOT shifts is great, but you ALSO want it to bang down a gear (or three !!) when needed. Kickdowns are JUST as important as upshifts. *I* would suggest trying for a 4900-5000rpm kickdown for the 2-1 shift. This means that OFF of the downshift, your tach hammers right up to 4900-5K rpm, putting you in the meat of the powerband, and offering an instant pull......... BUT.......set this toooo high, and you slap down to 1st, pull (hard) for 1.142 seconds, and bang.......right back into an upshift............in other words, you wasted time with a downshift, followed right after by an upshift.............all when you could have had it kick to 2nd and been done with it Hence 5K (and not more).........this still leaves you a solid 900+ rpm pull through 1st with no time wasted. To attain this, try a 36 or 37mph WOT 2-1 shift. One of those should drop you right where you want. If anything, start with 36mph and see what that feels like........... Next..........3-2. This is the important one off highway speed pulls (whether racing or just pulling out to pass). Since you are accelerating so much slower up top, you can be quite a lot more agressive here. I would suggest around a 5400rpm limit (no more than 5500 anyway). Call this 76mph (maybe even 75, but start off with 76). Yes, it DOES put you past the 5100-5200rpm power peak, but you are still making a lot more grunt there than you are at just under 4K in 3rd...........and again, leaves you at least 400rpm to play with. Finally, your 4-3. This one can be thought of two ways....... 1) Set the limit very close to the 5500rpm upshift, so that if you encounter a hill or something, you kick right back into the power. Or..... 2) Set the limit somewhat lower, so that if you are nervous about being at high rpm for so long (but want to continue the pull), you can lift very *briefly*, allow the 3-4 shift to happen and go right back WOT (now in 4th gear) without fear of a kick BACK down to 3rd, putting you right back up to high rpm...........plus this limits any shuffling between gears and keeps the trans temp down a little bit. Your choice, with #1 being a little more performance oriented, and #2 being a little safer. For #1, I'd set the 4-3 118mph (~5400rpm). For #2, I'd drop all the way down to 113mph (5150rpm or so), since I KNOW that 3100 cars can attain this even BONE stock, AND hold said speed in 4th (experience perhaps ?? ). So............WOT stuff sumarizes as follows: 1-2 @ 5600rpm (~42mph) 2-3 @ 5800rpm (~81mph) 3-4 @ 5500rpm (~121mph) 2-1 @ 36mph 3-2 @ 76mph 4-3 @ 118mph OR 113mph Now that you have your WOT stuff set (or at least have a good place to start from), you need to look at your part throttle tables. Be aware.............MANY TP sensors do not read a full 100% at full throttle, and I have ALSO heard of a glitch in some versions of the DHP software that won't read it as a full 100% even if the TPS IS right on. So...........always have the top TWO slots (the slots are every 6.25% if memory serves) in the table listed at your kickdown/upshift limits. Eg: 3-2 93.75% ........76mph 100%............76mph That being said, on to the part throttle stuff......... *I* always leave 0-50ish % TPS at the stock settings for both upshifting and downshifting..........UNLESS......something is particularly stupid. Case in point..........Beretta's have a stock 2-1 kickdown table that has 8mph listed all the way up to like 93.75% TPS..........in other words, once the car is in 2nd, you have to STOMP on it to get a downshift. No exactly a good way to net a responsive powertrain in traffic ABOVE 50%, I start a smooth progression on up to the top of the chart so that there are no "holes" in the shift logic. Anyway.............start with all of that and remember.........test test TEST. But be sure you don't get tossed in jail or cause an accident doning so If you have questions, ask away.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 I'm curious...........has any of this worked, and/or does it make sense??? I just want to know that I'm not out of my mind (since I haven't actually DONE any "tuning" for a Gen I W car...........just L's and a Gen II SC car). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Well I havent made any changes yet, im just now in the area to get the tuner off my buddy.. im about to run outside and give another flash.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted June 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Ok, my buddy is came up for the evening, so I grabbed the tuner to use it.. I reset the shift points to what you recommended, and rev limiters. I also added some much needed timing, 2 more degrees of advance, for a total of I think 6 extra degrees. Of course I erased and check engine light that may annoy me...i.e. EVAP codes cause the 97 isnt the same as a 96.. Base AFR was changed to 12.8 And we will go from there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Ok, my buddy is came up for the evening, so I grabbed the tuner to use it.. I reset the shift points to what you recommended, and rev limiters. I also added some much needed timing, 2 more degrees of advance, for a total of I think 6 extra degrees. Of course I erased and check engine light that may annoy me...i.e. EVAP codes cause the 97 isnt the same as a 96.. Base AFR was changed to 12.8 And we will go from there Let me know how the shift logic works out (I'm curious as to how close I am on my recomendations ). Also, as I mentioned, you may still have to fool around a little to get things dead on..........just be careful when you are doing any high rpm pulls. And finally............I know that lean (to a point) equals power, but leave some headroom, especially at high rpm to keep things safe. Lean ALSO means higher EGT's, and that *can* mean melted pistons if taken to the extreme (extended high rpm pulls). I would consider alowing the AFR to nudge below 12:1 (even low 11's might not be the WORST idea) up past 5500rpm to keep things safer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted June 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Well the current AFR runs much better especially on the top end, the stock AFR was 13.08, so im richer than stock, prolly why I have been able to add so much timing and I see no KR. Of course, I only modified the AFR for PE and the TPS in which it enters PE. Really helped for passing and getting up hills without a downshift. Oh, the shifts came out perfect!!! Thanks!!.. 1st hits 5800 next thing I know, its right in second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Oh, the shifts came out perfect!!! Thanks!!.. 1st hits 5800 next thing I know, its right in second. I'd still recomend sneaking that 1-2 shift up to 5900-5950rpm (*just* shy of the rev limiter). But 5800rpm is close to dead on for 2-3 (I recomended 5850). PLus I'm sure you haven't tested out 3-4 yet Edit: Oh, and what about kickdowns? I forgot to ask, but how do those feel?? I mean, they should be quite a bit more agressive than stock, but I figured that would be what you are looking for. Finally; one other trick that can help.......... IIRC, both the 60-E and 65-E also have shift TIME listed in a table somewhere. Lower this down to 0.01 seconds.........basically, it won't change the hydrolic and mechanical limits of the shift speeds, but it eliminates the pausing between gears so that it can do 2 and 3 gear (3-1 or 4-1 etc) a bit quicker. Upshifts..........well........they won't change perceptably, but there you have it. Any little thing helps.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted June 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 My kickdowns have been good since the first tune.. I dont race from a roll as its retarded so i'm not gonna nitpick over a downshift I am quite good with the 5800 1st to 2nd as there is a noticable kinda drop at about 5900.. I think that is my 164000 mile valvetrains fault though... I had the shift time tables changed from the default 0.000 to .050 already. Didnt notice to much, but I dont know if the default 0.000 is just ignored... Right now its back to 0.000.. Next tune I work on I will change it to .010 And yes, I have done a WOT 3-4 shift I had to test out that my governor wasnt there anymore One thing that is quite different is that when it hits the 2-3 shift, it pulls hard immediately in 3rd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCGUY112887 Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 My kickdowns have been good since the first tune.. I dont race from a roll as its retarded so i'm not gonna nitpick over a downshift How is a race from a roll retarded? It's the best way to race (not drag) a heavier car such as yours and mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted July 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 My kickdowns have been good since the first tune.. I dont race from a roll as its retarded so i'm not gonna nitpick over a downshift How is a race from a roll retarded? It's the best way to race (not drag) a heavier car such as yours and mine. It just doesnt seem like it will prove much.. I mean its still fun, but doesnt prove much.. Launch is what takes talent.. Hammering the fast pedal at 40mpg doesnt BTW, I did some thinking.. I think the drop I am seeing around 5900 might be fixed by changing the WOT AFR to about 12.4:1... Something tells me she wants a bit more fuel at WOT.. I will also have to try to copy and paste my AFR add table as well.. Something seems off at 4000rpm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBULS Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 My kickdowns have been good since the first tune.. I dont race from a roll as its retarded so i'm not gonna nitpick over a downshift How is a race from a roll retarded? It's the best way to race (not drag) a heavier car such as yours and mine. It's not even about racing from a roll........... Think of it as powertrain responsiveness. Basically, a well massaged kickdown table will make the car FEEL a lot better, it will ensure you ALWAYS have the right gear and just basically make it more fun to drive. And faster As for roll-ons: I just raced a Crown Vic from a 70mph roll last night in my Prelude and it is the first race I've had in ages...............and it was PLENTY fun. 70-105mph = 4-6 car lengths for me (and then the CV driver later asking me if my slow-ass prelude had a TURBO!! ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXX Posted July 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Well as it is fun, my kickdowns have been right on.. Im quite pleased with them.. Also, the shifts have gotten quicker today since I replaced my blown out hydraulic engine and trans mounts with solid ones.. Now my engine and trans isnt banging around anymore... Next is to get a poly upper mounts.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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