Newbie with questions(long post)

[chasin_shadowz]

Hi, Thanks for letting me join your forum. The info I found here, along with the looks of the car, had a lot of infuence on me buying my TGP. Now,it the first car that I'm actually proud to own. I apologize for the long winded post.

 

In March, I bought an 89 black TGP w/ 143,000 from an auction in Illinois. According to carfax and the odometer reading, it looks like it has sat for the last 4 years, which was when it last was taken to emissions(which it failed). When I bought it, it needed a battery, coolant and an oil change. Brought it to Great Lakes dragway and got a 16.6 at 89mph,if I remember right.

 

About a week after that, I put plugs and wires on, gave it going up the street(trying to show off to my friend) and it started billowing white smoke. I never had a turbo car before, so I was worried it was a head gasket. I brought it into a local reputable shop and turned out it was the Fuel Pressure Regulator. He said that it was dumping too much fuel and washing the cylinders out with gas. I had that and a few other things installed along with having a compression and leak down test. Everything checked out ok.

 

Now, as of later, it's been shuddering/hesitation around 2,000 RPM, most notibly in 2nd and 3rd, but it does do it in neutral I have noticed. That makes me think it's engine related, not so much transmission. If I give it,WOT, or lightly give it gas it really doesn't do it at all, just when I push the pedal enough to go up a hill on the freeway or so. My mechanic said that if I lightly press the brake and it goes away, it's likely the torque converter. Does this sound right? Tapping the brakes does seem to kick it down a gear, or at least raise the RPMs. I replaced the vacuum modulator, which was also turned out to be bad, with a red stripe adjustable modulator and recently did a tranny filter. There seemed to be a green tinge to the fluid. I think it's just common sludge from a transmission that's probably never had its fluid changed. When it is recommended to turn the screw on the modulator in two turns, is that two complete revolutions or just two hand turns?

 

I'm hoping that the shuddering is something a bit cheaper than a tranny rebuild, like the Throttle Positioning Sensor or Idle Control Valve. I know that I've read recommendations that it's a good idea to replace all of the sensors right away when you jump head first into one of these. I ran some Techron injector cleaner(also recommended by my mechanic before I dig anymore into the engine and rack up unnecessary bills) After that, I could smell the cat a little. Could it be a clogged cat, a bad EGR, or bad ECM, bad injectors also be causing the hesitation? I'll be bringing it in tomarrow morning, due to that I have to go on a trip Thursday afternoon and don't have too much time to fixing things on a hit or miss basis. I took a inductive timing light and hooked the clip over each of the wires and all appeared to be firing. The only other thing that I can think to do before I bring it in would be the fuel filter, but risking twisting off the lines right before I go up north makes me nervous too. Also, just to see if the computer in the car know whats going on, I jumped out the ASDL be the "How to pull OBD-I codes" post. (http://www.w-body.com/forum/index.php?topic=31177.0). Didn't get anything except for the "code 12" flash. Don't know if that tells me anything.

 

The only other problem that I have is the brake system is leaking. I get a puddle about a foot wide under where the master cylinder is when I let the car sit overnight. The back resevoir of the master is the only one going down, which I believe goes to the accumulator part. My ABS light has been on, but when the resevoir is full, I have strong brakes. Only when i run out of fluid in the back resevoir do I get hard non-assisted brakes. When I do top it off with the car running, I see bubbles coming from the furthest driver's side port...bleeding the accumulator? From what I've read,(I've been doing a lot on this issue recently) it seems like it's most likely a cracked housing. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed it something less expensive. It doesn't look like a bad brake line or any of that obvious stuff. Has anyone ever had this problem? How do you get ABS codes? I read somewhere that people were looking for a cheaper alternative to Prior for the housing repair. If I do have to replace mine, I'll see what I can do to make a more affordable replacement. I have of access to quite a few CNC and other machines at my work. I've already had to make a pretty intricate piece for the moonroof of my riviera that I'm quite proud of, granted brakes actually deal with safety.

 

So I guess my questions are:

1)By tapping the brakes, and having the trans kick down indicate a bad trans?or at least torque converter?

2)Is a slight green tinge at one level of the trans fluid sound normal for a high mile trans?

3)Two full turns for the red stripe modulator?

4)Could a bad TPS,ICV,EGR,ECM,cat, injectors cause a rough idle at a certain idle?

5)What could be wrong on my master?

6)Are the bubbles coming up in the resevoir meaning the accumulator is being bled?

7)Has anyone else had a leak in the master cylinder location of the car and not have it be the housing?

8)How do you get ABS codes?

 

I'll try to post some pics soon,

Thanks for your help,

Mike

[GOT2B GM]

Hi, Thanks for letting me join your forum. The info I found here, along with the looks of the car, had a lot of infuence on me buying my TGP. Now,it the first car that I'm actually proud to own. I apologize for the long winded post.

 

Welcome aboard. Also join http://www.tgpforums.com.

 

 

 

 

In March, I bought an 89 black TGP w/ 143,000 from an auction in Illinois. According to carfax and the odometer reading, it looks like it has sat for the last 4 years, which was when it last was taken to emissions(which it failed). When I bought it, it needed a battery, coolant and an oil change. Brought it to Great Lakes dragway and got a 16.6 at 89mph,if I remember right.

 

About a week after that, I put plugs and wires on, gave it going up the street(trying to show off to my friend) and it started billowing white smoke. I never had a turbo car before, so I was worried it was a head gasket. I brought it into a local reputable shop and turned out it was the Fuel Pressure Regulator. He said that it was dumping too much fuel and washing the cylinders out with gas. I had that and a few other things installed along with having a compression and leak down test. Everything checked out ok.

 

Now, as of later, it's been shuddering/hesitation around 2,000 RPM, most notibly in 2nd and 3rd, but it does do it in neutral I have noticed. That makes me think it's engine related, not so much transmission. If I give it,WOT, or lightly give it gas it really doesn't do it at all, just when I push the pedal enough to go up a hill on the freeway or so. My mechanic said that if I lightly press the brake and it goes away, it's likely the torque converter. Does this sound right? Tapping the brakes does seem to kick it down a gear, or at least raise the RPMs. I replaced the vacuum modulator, which was also turned out to be bad, with a red stripe adjustable modulator and recently did a tranny filter. There seemed to be a green tinge to the fluid. I think it's just common sludge from a transmission that's probably never had its fluid changed. When it is recommended to turn the screw on the modulator in two turns, is that two complete revolutions or just two hand turns?

 

The torque convertor will automatically disengage when you touch the brakes. I would say turn the modulator 2 complete revolutions.

 

If you haven't yet, go to a shop and have them flush that swamp water out of your trans. I don't think green is normal for trans fluid.

 

 

I'm hoping that the shuddering is something a bit cheaper than a tranny rebuild, like the Throttle Positioning Sensor or Idle Control Valve. I know that I've read recommendations that it's a good idea to replace all of the sensors right away when you jump head first into one of these. I ran some Techron injector cleaner(also recommended by my mechanic before I dig anymore into the engine and rack up unnecessary bills) After that, I could smell the cat a little. Could it be a clogged cat, a bad EGR, or bad ECM, bad injectors also be causing the hesitation? I'll be bringing it in tomarrow morning, due to that I have to go on a trip Thursday afternoon and don't have too much time to fixing things on a hit or miss basis. I took a inductive timing light and hooked the clip over each of the wires and all appeared to be firing. The only other thing that I can think to do before I bring it in would be the fuel filter, but risking twisting off the lines right before I go up north makes me nervous too. Also, just to see if the computer in the car know whats going on, I jumped out the ASDL be the "How to pull OBD-I codes" post. (http://www.w-body.com/forum/index.php?topic=31177.0). Didn't get anything except for the "code 12" flash. Don't know if that tells me anything.

 

 

What type of plugs did you install? Regular AC Delcos ar all you need. Gap them .010" tighter than factory.

 

Also install a new AC Delco O2 sensor.

 

Code 12 flashes before and after showing codes,so if it only flashes 12 that mean there's no codes.

 

Hell even old gas will cause it to run shitty. Replace that fuel filter. Visegrips make a nice set of pliers that actually grab onto the flats of nuts, will NEVER round off a nut again.

 

 

 

 

The only other problem that I have is the brake system is leaking. I get a puddle about a foot wide under where the master cylinder is when I let the car sit overnight. The back resevoir of the master is the only one going down, which I believe goes to the accumulator part. My ABS light has been on, but when the resevoir is full, I have strong brakes. Only when i run out of fluid in the back resevoir do I get hard non-assisted brakes. When I do top it off with the car running, I see bubbles coming from the furthest driver's side port...bleeding the accumulator? From what I've read,(I've been doing a lot on this issue recently) it seems like it's most likely a cracked housing. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed it something less expensive. It doesn't look like a bad brake line or any of that obvious stuff. Has anyone ever had this problem? How do you get ABS codes? I read somewhere that people were looking for a cheaper alternative to Prior for the housing repair. If I do have to replace mine, I'll see what I can do to make a more affordable replacement. I have of access to quite a few CNC and other machines at my work. I've already had to make a pretty intricate piece for the moonroof of my riviera that I'm quite proud of, granted brakes actually deal with safety.

 

Try finding a j/y unit whose housing isn't cracked and swap your known good parts over? Thats the cheapest I can think of. I think you need one of those big Snap-On scanners that shops have to retrieve ABS codes.

 

 

 

[GutlessSupreme]

1)By tapping the brakes, and having the trans kick down indicate a bad trans?or at least torque converter?

 

No no, tapping the brakes unlocks the torque converter. this is perfectly normal. What he meant was, if the shudder goes away after tapping the brakes (converter = unlocked), that that points to the converter being the culprit. That being said, I'm pretty sure the torque converter only locks in 4th gear, which wouldn't explain the shudder in 2nd and 3rd.

Just caught the neutral part. Yea if it's shuddering in neutral it's definitely engine related imho.

 

My 3.1 Cutlass had a shudder in 4th when I tried to give it power without letting it downshift. I thought it was the torque converter going, but it turned out to be either a bad ICM (ignition control module) and/or coilpack(s) (dunno, replaced them all together). The engine just wasn't running strong enough. But again, I only noticed that in 4th. If yours are original (or even aftermarket), it could be a cause. I only recommend replacing them with GM parts. Hell check ebay, I BELIEVE (someone check this) that newer GMs are still using the same ICM and/or coilpacks, so you can probably get a used low mile set for cheap.

 

Also like Matt said, stick with Delco plugs, if you didn't. R42LTS is what you need, though you're only really supposed to have to gap them tighter if your running a chip/more boost/etc. And I don't even think of easy stuff anymore could very well be a ~$7 fuel filter as well.

 

2)Is a slight green tinge at one level of the trans fluid sound normal for a high mile trans?

 

green tinge? um.. no. I would check your coolant and make sure it's not looking like goopy sewage, if your trans fluid looks a little green, your radiator might be leaking internally and letting the trans fluid/coolant mix. But that is not normal in any way and you should probably change the fluid/filter asap.

 

4)Could a bad TPS,ICV,EGR,ECM,cat, injectors cause a rough idle at a certain idle?

 

so your idle is poor too? could really be any of those things.. more than likely a combination, and your crossover is probably leaking as well (stock ones all do).

 

5)What could be wrong on my master?

6)Are the bubbles coming up in the resevoir meaning the accumulator is being bled?

7)Has anyone else had a leak in the master cylinder location of the car and not have it be the housing?

 

http://www.kazmotorsports.com/tpsgarage/TGP/brakes/powermaster.htm

 

bubbles sounds like the accumulator isn't holding pressure I think.

If the leak isn't the pump housing being cracked, I've also heard that the pressure switch can break and leak as well.

 

some other good reference sites:

http://www.kazmotorsports.com/tpsgarage/

http://www.tgpforums.com

[Addicted To Boost]

It seems to me that your shudder may be a misfire. What plugs are you running? If you are not running the AC Delcos, that may be why. A buddy of mine was running Boschs in his TGP and it didn't run very smooth, switched to AC Delcos and it runs perfect.

[IRONDOG442]

LG5 FTL !

[GOT2B GM]

LX5 FTMFL !

[TGP5sp90]

[chasin_shadowz]

Thanks for all the input. I got it back yesterday. The mechanic said it took him a while, but found it to be a bad coil pack. He replaced one of them with a used one for a total cost of about $100($25 for the coil back and 80 for labor, no diagnosis charge) I'll pick up some new plugs today, I think I did put bosch now that I think about it. Do you guys gap them any different from stock>

 

Are there any performance ignition items worth saving up for/keeping my eyes open for? Is it worth getting a chip? Or do you really have to know what you're doing before installing a mod like that, risking blowing the engine by doing something wrong?

 

When I get back from my trip after this weekend, I'll have the shop flush the tranny. I did do the filter, that's really the only way I noticed the color. It doesn't look to bad now, but I'll play it safe and get it flushed. I refilled what came out after the filter change with some Hurst Hot Shift. Advance Auto had it for sale for about 1.95 a quart. I bough all that I could from about 4 of the local stores. Side note-for some reason, Hurst isn't listed on MrGasket's site any more...wierd.

 

I joined TGPforums now also.

 

I heard Bonneville SEEI's had the PM-III system also. Do they? Did normal Bonneville's and Grand Prix's come with ABS and this system? Just trying to know what to look for in the junkyards.

 

I know what LG5 is,and LX5 is the GTP engine, right? but what's FTL and FTMFL?

 

One other thing, of curious to see if I own anyone's car on here. I bought it on consignment from an auction in Illinois. The title said that a Herman and Linda Roberts owned it and sold it to an "HD auto sales of kenosha" . It's black and has a few light dents,each about 1/8 wide right below the right rear side window. I figure if someone happens to know this exact car, maybe I can get some history on it. It came with the tape. When I get some more free time, I'll dub it to MP3 and try to share amongst us, if it hasn't been already.

[krenzy]

FTL means "For The Loss"...basically, it means whatever they said sucks.

 

FTMFL means "For The Mother Fuckin' Loss".....you can figure that one out lol.

[IRONDOG442]

The Lx5 is the twin cam 3.5 liter shortstar six

[Addicted To Boost]

I'll pick up some new plugs today, I think I did put bosch now that I think about it. Do you guys gap them any different from stocky.

They should be fine with the stock gap, but if you are pushing any more boost than stock, it will run well at .030

 

Are there any performance ignition items worth saving up for/keeping my eyes open for? Is it worth getting a chip? Or do you really have to know what you're doing before installing a mod like that, risking blowing the engine by doing something wrong?

A good working stock ignition system works best on these cars.

 

Kenny (TGPilot) on TGPforums sells chips that work very well. They will make the car push a bit more boost and it corrects the rich fuel tables these cars have stock. Before you chip it, make sure you do a full tuneup, replace all sensors, plugs, wires, and make sure your intake gaskets aren't leaking.

 

I heard Bonneville SEEI's had the PM-III system also. Do they? Did normal Bonneville's and Grand Prix's come with ABS and this system? Just trying to know what to look for in the junkyards.

Wow I didn't know Bonnevilles had PMIIIs.. You can find PMIII systems on some regular 89-91 Grand Prixs and Cutlass Supremes.

 

It came with the tape. When I get some more free time, I'll dub it to MP3 and try to share amongst us, if it hasn't been already.

Please do that! I'm sure everyone on here would love to hear that tape!

 

[mfewtrail]

One other thing, of curious to see if I own anyone's car on here. I bought it on consignment from an auction in Illinois. The title said that a Herman and Linda Roberts owned it and sold it to an "HD auto sales of kenosha" . It's black and has a few light dents,each about 1/8 wide right below the right rear side window. I figure if someone happens to know this exact car, maybe I can get some history on it. It came with the tape. When I get some more free time, I'll dub it to MP3 and try to share amongst us, if it hasn't been already.

 

Welcome to the board. Can you post your VIN number for your TGP? I'm compiling a database of TGP VIN's. I might have yours already with a little information on it. I do believe that I have pictures of your car from when it was listed on an auction site earlier this year(?). Does that auction place have bright blue paint on the front of the building?

 

EDIT: Here's one of the pictures. That auction place had the car for a while and they had different photos of it taken at least two of their Auction locations in IL. The photo below was taken on August 20th, 2007.

 

 

EDIT#2: Found the other picture I was looking for: This photo was taken on March 3rd, 2008.

 

[Garrett Powered]

yea that tape is cool. when I first heard it I knew people here would love to hear it.

 

my newest red car came with EVERYTHING! plastic keys, all manuals, even the door bump guards that keep it safe from chips when you open the door. and that tape.

 

nice looking car there.

 

that does not sound right that the FPR washed out the cylinders though. is that even possible?

[mfewtrail]

that does not sound right that the FPR washed out the cylinders though. is that even possible?

 

Yes. Any time you're running extremely rich/dumping fuel, you are somewhat "washing" the cylinders out. If you let it go long enough, you'll need to freshen up the engine afterwards...

[Garrett Powered]

no, I know what happens when the cylinders get washed out. but I didnt know the FPR could go out like that and cause that condition. so what happens, it shuts off and the fuel cant return to the tank? or it screws up the injectors? thats what I was wondering.

[mfewtrail]

The diaphram inside ruptures and then you're sucking fuel into the intake via the vacuum line that runs from the FPR to the throttle body. One of my cars(turbocharged Volvo) had a ruptured diaphram in the FPR when I bought it, it would hardly even run due to it sucking so much extra fuel into the engine.

[Garrett Powered]

holy crap!

[Addicted2bass]

Welcome to the forum man! It sounds like you have the same brake problem as i do. Except mine is leaking so bad that i cant even drive the damn thing. Be careful on your trip! Mine was fine on my drive to work at 11 and 4 hours later most of the fluid had leaked out causing the pump in the master cylinder to keep running and kill my battery. Once i charged it back up it blew my main abs fuse. I personally would take another car on the trip if you can!

[chasin_shadowz]

I'm back from my trip up north. She did 80 to 90 most of the way(3 and half hours each way) with no problems, besides my intercooler hose popping off once I was in town for a while. The freeways really clear out at night and in the middle of a weekday. I was watching my boost gage and tried to keep it at zero psi so I would work the turbo too much for too long. I kept my foot out of the throttle, besides the occasional pass.

 

Looks like Matt got my pictures up before I can. Yes,Matt, that is the one I bought. I was surprised that I won it as it went up for auction at least four times. The seller had a reserve of $2,000, and I didn't actually bid until the last time. I came to look at it two auctions before I won it, but didn't want to bid as high as it was going with all of the problems that I saw.

 

I'm going to do some junkyard searching this weekend. If sure they'll be a pretty penny if I do find one.

[bullet]

first off congrats on the TGP!!!

looks really clean!!

So you raced it at Great Lakes Dragway??

where in SE Wisconsin do you live?

I'm in Pewaukee, so basically Waukesha