clutch issues

[Mr_Efficiency]

I have a 90 GP with a 3.1 that I swaped from auto to 5 speed. The car is still in the air on jackstands, when i put it in gear with it running and the clutch to the floor the wheels start turning and I cant get into reverse with the car running, it just grinds.

Also the clutch pedal sits lower than it should and I hit the floor before it is fully depressed. I modified it so the pedal sat were it should and I can fully depress the clutch pedal now but it still does the same thing... it feels fine tho, the same feel as my 5 speed grand am but it obviously isnt working.

I had the master come apart on me when i was instaling it and had to reassemble it, I know i got it back together right but I cant bleed it and i think that is where my problem is.

How do I bleed the master? Or bleed any part of the system for that matter, there is no bleeder screws anywere. Also is there any way to adjust the clutch? Or does anyone have any other ideas as to what my problem may be?

thanks

[GutlessSupreme]

http://www.w-body.com/forum/index.php?topic=16095.msg161944#msg161944

http://turbosedan.com/cutlass/trans/clutch_bleed.jpg

[Mr_Efficiency]

thanks a lot man. I figured this would be a simple answer that has been asked a hundred times but i couldnt find it... I did search honest, lol

 

Why the hell would GM make a hydraulic system without a bleeder screw? that was just about as good an idea as the alternator placement on the 3.4

 

[Mr_Efficiency]

Ok i tried that and the first time it made it worse, i had no pedal at all for the first half and then it was solid, so I tried it again and now i have some pedal but its very soft and dosent do anything. I'm worse off from what i started with, is there some kind of trick to this im not getting? whats to stop air from getting in the line when you put the line and the slave together?

thanks

 

EDIT: is there any way to tell/test the slave or master to make sure there actually working so I'm not just wasting my time trying to bleed something thats broken.

 

Edit 2: Ok I got it bled pedal is nice and stiff now but my pedal sits behind the brake pedal a little and the clutch pedal hits the floor before fully disengaging... any ideas on how to correct this?

thanks

[GutlessSupreme]

first, in response to your 1st post again: I'm fairly sure these Getrags have no synchro for the reverse gear, so if you try and shift into reverse with the car/wheels moving forward, you're gonna grind. And secondly, what do you mean the master came apart, do you mean the hydraulic line seperated? Or what?

 

Why the hell would GM make a hydraulic system without a bleeder screw? that was just about as good an idea as the alternator placement on the 3.4

 

beats me man, such a simple addition would make our lives so much easier When I had to bleed my system, my stepdad came out, gave me a funny "what in god's name are you doing" kinda look (he was a mechanic way back). I had to show him there was no bleeder screw anywhere before he would believe me

 

Ok i tried that and the first time it made it worse, i had no pedal at all for the first half and then it was solid, so I tried it again and now i have some pedal but its very soft and dosent do anything. I'm worse off from what i started with, is there some kind of trick to this im not getting? whats to stop air from getting in the line when you put the line and the slave together?

thanks

 

EDIT: is there any way to tell/test the slave or master to make sure there actually working so I'm not just wasting my time trying to bleed something thats broken.

 

 

tough to say. lets see. Let me just go over it to make sure you understood and did it right.

 

So you disconnected the slave from the tranny, filled it up tilted, then turn it up straight and made sure it was filled again (I gave mine a few taps on the bottom to try and get bubbles out). You were still able to bolt the slave back onto the tranny, obviously, so I guess the plastic tabs used to hold the actuator in were still there.

 

You filled the master, while bolted into the car with the hydraulic line in place, and the end of the line submerged in brake fluid, and slowly pumped the pedal to get bubbles out of the master. Holding the slave upright, bring it to the car near the end of the line, having someone hold the clutch pedal to the floor, and press the line into the slave cylinder and slide the retaining pin in place.

 

The idea is that holding the pedal down will keep air from being sucked into the line when you remove the end of it from the brake fluid and press it into the port on the slave.

 

Not sure about how to test it.

[GutlessSupreme]

Edit 2: Ok I got it bled pedal is nice and stiff now but my pedal sits behind the brake pedal a little and the clutch pedal hits the floor before fully disengaging... any ideas on how to correct this?

thanks

 

ok so good you got it. You said earlier you modified the pedal to sit where it should - not sure how you did that.. but you didn't forget to undo it, did you? I'm honestly not sure on this one. Stupid question, but your throwout bearing is installed correctly, right?

[Mr_Efficiency]

When i said the master came apart, it literally came apart. the snap ring poped out and the piston came out the end followed by all the fluid.

 

With your bleeding process I'm a little fuzzy on when to let out the clutch and when to intsal the slave, or does it matter? i did it a few diffrent ways before it worked. one was clutch to the floor, bleed line, attached slave to line then mounted slave, released clutch. then I did the same thing only released the clutch before reinstalling the slave on the trans and it worked but it may have worked cause i was more thorough the second time... i stired aroung the fluid in the slave with a zip tie and all kinds of bubles come to the surface.

 

and yeah i put the clutch back to normal... before I made and extension for the master rod... If i cant solve this soon I think I'll just cut the rod in half and make it adjustable by welding a bolt in place of the shaft and one of those nuts that are like 3" long to the other end, then I'll just put it where i want it.

 

would like to solve it properly tho if i could.

 

pretty sure about the throw out bearing, this is definatly not the first 5 speed I've swaped, i even grabed a hold of a spare trans I had and shook the hell out of it to see if i could have knocked the throw out bearing out of place when i was wrestling the trans onto the motor but it didnt move at all.

 

When I had to bleed my system, my stepdad came out, gave me a funny "what in god's name are you doing" kinda look (he was a mechanic way back). I had to show him there was no bleeder screw anywhere before he would believe me

 

my dad did the same thing, he came over and asked why the hell i pulled the slave off and I said i was bleeding it and he hunted around the engine bay looking for a bleeder screw cause he was sure there was one on there, then he just said "well good luck bleeding without a bleeder" and walked away, lol

 

I almost swaped out my slave for one off a sunbird that had a bleeder on it but it didnt bolt up

 

[GutlessSupreme]

Pump clutch slowly to bleed master

Press and HOLD clutch while attaching and securing line to slave cyl

Release clutch

 

That should've worked.

 

I've never taken a master apart so I don't know if there's anything that could've been damaged when it came apart. I'm really out of ideas here, for the moment. Sorry

[Mr_Efficiency]

it should be fine, it was just a snap ring that came out and the piston. it was all still on the push rod in the correct order and i reassembled it and on the first bleed a lot of air came out and the master isnt leaking at all.

I'm going to disconnect the rod from the pedal and push it all the way in by hand and see if that works and if it does then I know its just a pedal placement issue and I'll just make the rod adjustable and just set it where it should be.

 

[patgizz]

the right way:

 

remove slave cylinder from the 2 studs securing it to transmission. leave line connected, remove reservoir cap.

 

hold slave vertical and slowly pump it, it helps to just put the end of it's pushrod to the tranny case and slowly pump it with about 2" strokes from fully depressed, not letting it come completely extended. do this until you see no more bubbles in the reservoir, then about 20 more times to be safe. making sure not to let the slave fully extend, reinstall it.

 

straight out of my GM service manual. it worked for me, i went from no pedal to perfect pedal when i swapped my TGP a few weeks ago.

[Mr_Efficiency]

Tried that way as well and didnt get any air, I dont think there is anymore air in the line at all, I think i might have found my problem.

 

when i push my slave into the tranny it only compresses about half of the shaft into the slave which means it can only push that half back out leaving me with a total push of a little more than a half inch. Is there susposed to be some kind of spacer in there to get the push rod that extra half inch or so into the slave, if not i'll make one cause thats what seems to be the problem.

I took a few pics of what i have, is that it or is there susposed to more to it on the end.

 

 

Also the end is a little mangled, I tried to get a pic of it but they all came out fuzzy, here they are anyways tho.

 

 

 

the sunbird slave i have has a plastic end to it, is mine susposed to have that. it might give me that extra bit of push i need.

 

Also i fixed my pedal, heres my adjustable push rod on the master the pics are taken with the camera pointed up under the dash. Master end is on the bottom of the pic and teh pedal at the top. these also came out blurry.

 

 

 

just a bunch of bolts welded together and then welded to the rod after i cut it off, lol makes adjusting the pedal a cake walk... should have been like this from the factory, lol

 

and of course i had to have a spiffy rice burner shifter knob, lol

 

 

So whats up with the end of my slave am I missing anything there?

thanks guys

[GutlessSupreme]

You need a new slave. That explain's why your pedal was low too.

 

They slave can't be mounted with the pushrod fully extended. It needs to be secured by those two clear/yellowish "T" tabs around the pushrod (you only have 1 in your photo). They latch onto the plastic piece that covers the end of the pushrod and break the first time you hit the clutch pedal. The end of yours is just fucked up.

[89GP_SE]

You need a new slave. That explain's why your pedal was low too.

 

They slave can't be mounted with the pushrod fully extended. It needs to be secured by those two clear/yellowish "T" tabs around the pushrod (you only have 1 in your photo). They latch onto the plastic piece that covers the end of the pushrod and break the first time you hit the clutch pedal. The end of yours is just fucked up.

 

It may be possible that the master is bypassing and not allowing the slave to build pressure. I just recently had this problem with my 5 speed firebird. It would be hard to get it in any gear and always grind into reverse. I replaced the master and bled the system and all is well. I too could not find a bleeder screw on the slave, then I realized that it is a alan key screw.

 

Edit : My master and slave were not leaking either.

[Mr_Efficiency]

ah ok, I was wondering about those clips, that i keep reading about. Yeah I can push the push rod it with little effort all the way to bottom... it does take effort but i can do it by hand... so i guess thats bad?

 

I'll just hunt down a 5 speed W in the wreckers and pull the master and slave as one and be done with it.

 

so if the clips break how can you put a used slave on the car? can you reattach the clips. i know it can be done cause i hear of people removing there slave all the time and reinstalling them.

thanks

[patgizz]

pulling them as a unit works if you make sure to not tip the reservoir upside down. mine came off and went on as a unit and still needed bled.

 

your slave is effed up on the end

[Mr_Efficiency]

anyone have a pic of what the slave is susposed to look like?

[rockfangd]

well i am definately no expert on 5 speeds but it looks like it should be like an inch longer and it may be missing a tab

[Pabz]

this is from the napa site,

 

your plastic piece on the end is toast.

 

 

Item#: UP 360000

Price: $53.49

 

as for the tabs, that is only when you by it new, you can use an used/old one without the tabs, its the plastic piece on the end that u need.

[Mr_Efficiency]

ok but how do i knowmy slave itself it screwed. I made a spacer for the rod and it still didnt engage. $50 is bad tjo for a new slave I may buy one anyways, whats a master worth? or how can i test the master to know its ok cause I only want to install a new slave once.

thanks

[Pabz]

When i took my master cylinder out, the piston popped out along with the spring, I decided to replace it since the seal may be letting air through. however it should be fine.

 

Your problem seems to be the slave cylinder, it is not extending properly and could be damaged. You should replace your slave cylinder.