Frank Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 After meeting up with with some of the guys at a NAIOA meeting yesterday, I learned about the W-Body forum. Having had a look around this site today, I noticed there were some earlier posts about propane conversions so I thought I would introduce my car. I bought this car in May of last year with the intention of converting it to propane. I got all of the pieces together and found shop to do the work in January.It uses a Technocarb SVIS dual fuel propane injection system. It starts on gasoline and switches over to propane at a programmed engine temperature and RPM. When the tank pressure is low (as in extreme sub-zero temperatures) or if it runs low on fuel, it automatically switches back to gasoline operation. There are more details of the conversion on my SVIS Impala page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89SupremeCutty Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 dude, that is friggin neat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euro Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 wow, that's pretty cool. How powerful is it, still the same? Just hope you never get rearended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy K Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 wow!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 that's very neat....I wouldn't to drive anything with a propane tank on board but it is neat none the less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Thanks. I have not had a chance to put it on the dyno yet but I have not noticed any loss of power. My reason for converting this vehicle was to reduce operating costs and, for the type of driving I do, power was never an issue. Technocarb's rule of thumb (see FAQs #9 & #10) for their injection conversions is a 10% drop in fuel economy and power. I find my fuel economy to be nearly the same as what it was on gasoline. As for the safety of the fuel tank, I would be more worried about a plastic gasoline tank than a high strength steel pressure vessel. Where it's positioned (between the strut towers), the car would have to be hit extremely hard before anything came close to even scratching the tank. Not only that, this tank meets CSA B51 Annex G, which means that it is much safer than ASME tanks meeting NFPA 58. Although gasoline prices have started to skyrocket here in Ontario (regular is over $1.20/litre), propane is still at 59.7¢/litre in Niagara Falls and 59.9¢/litre in Fort Erie. In Hamilton, the price has just gone up to 62.9¢/litre. This conversion probably would probably not make a lot of sense for most people but, for those who spend a lot of time of the road, the payback can be quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 That's cool, the thought crossed my mind to try that on my Olds. The efficiency of the engine goes way up and it stays clean (including the oil). PROPANE!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych0matt Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 very cool man. i think you are the first person on here to do this! so what is the cost of propane these days as compared to gas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManicMechanic Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Although gasoline prices have started to skyrocket here in Ontario (regular is over $1.20/litre), propane is still at 59.7¢/litre in Niagara Falls and 59.9¢/litre in Fort Erie. In Hamilton, the price has just gone up to 62.9¢/litre. This conversion probably would probably not make a lot of sense for most people but, for those who spend a lot of time of the road, the payback can be quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 doh! i is blind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManicMechanic Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 doh! i is blind! I would like to do a propane conversion, I wonder how it would affect an L67. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Very cool. I have seen many offroad vehicles with a propane injection system, but never a newer car. You should keep us up to date with the reliability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93CutlassSupreme Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 doh! i is blind! I would like to do a propane conversion, I wonder how it would affect an L67. It would probably benefit a boosted engine. Propane provides quite a cooling effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted To Boost Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Interesting... I thought I remembered seeing these propane systems on the 3.1s in the older Luminas.. wonder if it would benefit an LG5 much.. Even if it cooled it down a bit, that would be great since those engines have issues with heat soak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venom Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Dude thats freaking sweet. Thats almost as good as running diesel vehicles on used cooking oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadow Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Wow thats pretty cool. I have heard for using propane in the AC system but not converted to run the actual car engine. Nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclehotte Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 You guys just dont forget about the cost for the parts. In Germany we do this with propane since the 80ies. It IS very nice, but calculate the price for parts (or labor if you dont do it yourself) and it usually takes years to break even. Its easier to just buy an old diesel (like a Golf) and fuel it with plant oil. I got from a friend in the late 90ies a propane Volvo, the car was junk but I wanted to install the propane stuff in my old 1981 Audi 80. But I had to give it away since i came to the U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 I have been looking for an older VW diesel.... I haven't found one that fits my price range yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediabandit Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 That's wicked man. So what was the total cost for the conversion parts and the installation fee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Awesome. Kudos for taking action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 unclehotte is correct, injection systems are fairly expensive and, as I suggested earlier, are best suited those who spend a lot of time on the road. The Technocarb's 6-cylinder ESIP underhood parts package costs $1753 for the underhood components (see ESIP brochure). You will also need a fuel tank (with vapour box), fuel lines, fill valve, plus a few other small parts. A 14x38 or 16x36 fuel tank will fit and I recommend the larger tank for better flexibility in buying the cheapest fuel. A reasonably experienced shop will take 20-24 hours of labour to install a complete system. The total installed cost of this system in Canada will run $4500-$5000, which is why I said that it probably wouldn't make sense for most people. The only way to know for sure is to work out the payback. Vapour injection systems (as opposed to liquid injection) do not provide any cooling of the air charge due to the vaporization of the fuel. Since the converter vaporizes the fuel, vapour systems (both injection and fumigation) have a very slight effect on engine temperature. However, because the fuel is always vaporized before it is supplied to the engine, heat soak is never an issue. Propane injection should also work fine on an L67. The system is designed to work with turbocharged applications and the converter's output pressure is referenced to intake manifold pressure/vacuum. The propane fuel map in the propane system's computer applies a multiplication factor to the the gasoline injector pulse width (based on RPM) to get the correct propane injector pulse width. When set up correctly, the propane fuel trims should be identical to the gasoline fuel trims. The local taxi companies are pretty cheap and they still like to use Impco mixers (usually the Model 200) on their EFI vehicles. They haven't figured out that the cost of the fuel is way more than the cost of the components. They also don't seem to mind replacing intake manifolds that disintegrate from backfires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfangd Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 wow lol i have seen some hondas and contours around here with that but the valve is always on the opposite side of the fuel door. i always wondered to myself where the hell do they fill up lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w-bodys_are_the_best Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Cool, LP around northern IA, southern MN is at $1.96- $2.25, considering a 10% loss, You'd still be way ahead. If you did most of the work yourself, or all of it this would really pay off. LP is relatively cheap compared to gasoline. It's not cheap for heating houses, I just moved because from Nov.25 to Jan 25th, I used $1,000 worth of LP, but in a car it's definatley cheaper. I'd love to do this to a vehicle, but unless you have the knowledge to do it yourself or you do alot of driving like he stated it wouldn't make sense. We have some cold food product trucks around IA MN called Schwanns that go around to houses and businesses, they sell very good ice cream, and different foods, their entire fleet runs on LP and has for a long time. Last winter (06-07) I got LP for $1.25 a gallon, so it is rising like eveything else, but it's still alot cheaper. I wish more car companies would stick to the LP flex-fuel vehicles, like the ford taurus's they made/make, it makes alot more sense than Ethanol I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 The Schwan's trucks have a Bi-Phase liquid injection system, which they use only on their own vehicles. The only Bi-Phase vehicles I am aware of are President Bush's 2001 F-250 and a GMC Sierra Denali in Canada. The only commercially available liquid injection system in the USA is the ICOM JTG system, which is sold through CleanFuel USA. On the highway, just about every Flying J truck stop sells propane but they seem to have expensive fuel lately (winter pricing?). Their cheapest propane station is in Rapid City, SD where they sell propane for $2.199/gallon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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