spiderw31 Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 So I ws driving my GP home this evening, and I thought I'd enjoy the 3.4's powerband, and let her rev all the way through first (up to the 6k the auto tranny allows). I've done this a few times before, but this time all was not well. She made it up to 6k and shifted, but instead of hitting second, the revs dropped to about 2k and the car was slputtering and barely running if at all. I pumped the throttle a few times, and the car seemed to try to pull just a tiny bit, but it really was just coasting along. I start pulling off the road, and finally the engine totally quit. I tried to start it up, and it would just crank with the occasional splutter, but it refused to run. Also, after cranking, there was a strong smell of burnt rubber coming from under the hood. It seems to me that the timing belt decided to fail, and my question is this: Is there a quick and easy way to check the belt to see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 pull the 2 covers off, one is more decorative and covers up some of the spark plug wires, the other covers up the belt itself, use a 8mm and some medium length extensions, and be careful not to drop any of the hardware. basically if you can move the belt around by hand in any direction it is not as it should be, try pulling up between the cam cogs. when it was at 2000 about how did it sound? like a weird louder then usual hum? if so that sounds similar to what my car did when my timing belt tensioner failed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 pull the 2 covers off, one is more decorative and covers up some of the spark plug wires, the other covers up the belt itself, use a 8mm and some medium length extensions, and be careful not to drop any of the hardware. basically if you can move the belt around by hand in any direction it is not as it should be, try pulling up between the cam cogs. when it was at 2000 about how did it sound? like a weird louder then usual hum? if so that sounds similar to what my car did when my timing belt tensioner failed Cool thanks... I'll have to try that tomorrow! I had music on at the time, so when the revs dropped, I just couldn't really hear the engine. I thought for a second that it had stalled, and thats when I looked at the revs. Thats when I let off the throttle and tried to ease back into it, and it felt for a little bit like it was trying to run, but then quit completely. At least this all happened only about 1/3 of a mile from my apartment, and I had my buddy with me. We were able to push the car back and get it into a parking space rigt by my garage, so the work shouldn't be too horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Efficiency Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 When cranking if the belt was broken it would crank really easy cause some of the valves are open and causing no compression in those cylinders, it also makes a whining noise when cranking. I saw this happen to a car at a dealership i used to work at, he was lucky and didnt bend any valves so all he needed was a new belt and was good as new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 When cranking if the belt was broken it would crank really easy cause some of the valves are open and causing no compression in those cylinders, it also makes a whining noise when cranking. I saw this happen to a car at a dealership i used to work at, he was lucky and didnt bend any valves so all he needed was a new belt and was good as new. Well, it didn't seem to crank all that differently than normal, although MAYBE a little easier. The biggest thing I noticed was the smell of burning rubber after attempting to crank it. It also would halfheartedly attempt to fire over, but not much happened. The closest thing I can compare it to, is if you were to try to start a car with the distributor way way too far advanced (don't ask me how I know what that sounds like ) My understanding is that the early TDCs are not interferance motors, so I'm hopeful that just a timing job will do the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 yeah when mine went out, it sounded all weird when cranking, and sometimes popped through the intake, theres some good write ups, and plenty of people here to help you through it, first time doing the job is a royal PITA, but after that its not bad at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych0matt Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 well, i wrote a semi-helpful post, but my wireless had a hiccup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 well, i wrote a semi-helpful post, but my wireless had a hiccup Thanks for trying though! ...first time doing the job is a royal PITA, but after that its not bad at all. Thats kinda what I figured actually. Ahhh the joys of a 16 year old car (even if it does have only 42k on it)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z34duck Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 yea i bet when you pull the timing covers you will find the the belt is what it is they start to shread and ride on the gears out to the cover and rub against the cover thats what gave you that smell most likely. the bearing in the front idler went on mine and toasted the belt. yours with only 42 k miles is still prolly the original belt but im sure at 16 years old is dry rotted to hell . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo231 Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 Least we not forget...the burnt rubber could be a lot of things. Start with the basics...to be honest, it sounds like a fuel pump issue, so check your fuel pressure. Also, inspect the timing belt...but note I ran on a belt that left fine rubber all over the place and even showed metal on the belt, but it had no issues, so don't be so hasty to jump all over the belt. Do the basics...check the belt, check the fuel pressure, check for spark....go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 Ok, just pulled the front cover off, and the timing belt is definately not broken. It is tight between the cam sprockets, and it turns when I crank the engine. However, the belt doesn't look like it is all that great shape. The back of the belt is glazed pretty badly is a couple spots, and the teeth on the belt are kinda worn down. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here ya go: It is 15* outside right now, so I'm not gonna be spending much time out there today; I'll dig deeper tomorrow. At this point, I'm thinking that the belt jumped. Short of tearing the whole system open, is there any easy way to tell if this is the case? Turbo231: I don't have away to check the fuel pressure right now, but I can hear the pump run for a few seconds after I turn the key. In addition, after cranking a bit, the pump does run again, so for now I will assume there is pressure. is there a schrader valve that I can check pressure at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych0matt Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 the belt jumping is definitely possible. Have someone turn it over while watching it, your tensioner may have crapped out too. There is the possibility that it is tight between the sprockets, but it could be just the sprocket tension holding the belt tight, not the tensioner doing it's job. Have someone do that and watch it, you'll definitely know wether it's loose like that or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 The schrader valve is at the fuel rail on the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 Hmmmm... good thinking! I just went out and poked and prodded a little. What sort of deflection is normal between the sprockets, and say just below the front sprockets? Between the cams, it would deflect about 1/4 of an inch or so, and that seems a bit much (at least I think). After the belt wraps around the front most cam, and doubles under, I was able to push on that with a screwdriver, and would deflect more; maybe half an inch, but it is really hard to tell when looking from above. I'm not sure, but that sounds like too much slack to me. Opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 The schrader valve is at the fuel rail on the engine. I figured that if there was one thats where it would be... I guess I should have asked the other part of the question. I didn't happen to notice the valve; do I have to remove anything to get at it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo231 Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 Turbo231: I don't have away to check the fuel pressure right now, but I can hear the pump run for a few seconds after I turn the key. In addition, after cranking a bit, the pump does run again, so for now I will assume there is pressure. is there a schrader valve that I can check pressure at? That's ok...I'm just giving you my experience. My fuel pump ran too...but it was kicking out about 4 psi. I always lived in fear of my timing belt...below is a picture...I've cleaned all the rubber hair...it looked like that when I purchased it at 89k miles, and it looked the same when I sold it at 135k...with lots of hair cleaning in between. The schrader valve should have a little black cap on it...remove it and it looks like a tire valve with a little pin you can press in...if you hit it, it should really come out as it's supposed to be about 44 psi with the engine off and the system freshly pressurized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z34duck Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 the valve is on the pass. side of the engine and sometimes you cant see it because of the black top engine cover . look right near the edge of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 That's ok...I'm just giving you my experience. My fuel pump ran too...but it was kicking out about 4 psi. I always lived in fear of my timing belt...below is a picture...I've cleaned all the rubber hair...it looked like that when I purchased it at 89k miles, and it looked the same when I sold it at 135k...with lots of hair cleaning in between. The schrader valve should have a little black cap on it...remove it and it looks like a tire valve with a little pin you can press in...if you hit it, it should really come out as it's supposed to be about 44 psi with the engine off and the system freshly pressurized. I get what you are saying, i was just trying one thing at a time. It is definately smart to troubleshoot by checking each element, and that is my plan. Anyways, I was able to get to the valve this morning, and it had some pressure, but I don't know if it is enough. It shot about 1 1/2 feet up when I initially pressed the valve, but nothing came out after the initial spurt. After letting the system pressurize again, the initial spurt was not as high, and again nothing came out after that. I'll pick up a fuel pressure tester today for the proper test, but does what I'm describing sound right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManicMechanic Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 When you crank it over...Does the tach needle move? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 When you crank it over...Does the tach needle move? I think it does, although I'll double check it when I get home this evening. If it doesn't that would indicate possible cranksaft position failure right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych0matt Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 correct OK, I'll double check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo231 Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 correct OK, I'll double check. Ekk! I thought I read somewhere that you had check the spark, but that might have been another thread. You'll want to check that too. The ICM (Ignition Control Module) controls the spark of the car under 400 RPM. It uses a signal from the PCM, Crank Sensor, and...um...something else, to determine if the car is trying to start. This is also easy to check...pull a plug, set it on the engine, and crank it over (grounding the plug on the motor). If it's sparking, then all that stuff is good. No spark, the crank position sensor, PCM, and the other thing I forgot should be checked. If you have a timing light, it saves you from undoing a spark plug, but archives the same thing. Judging by the way your car failed, I still think fuel, but we're now dealing with a no start condition, so we should check everything. I wish Nebojsha <sp> were around...he just had a crank position sensor failure and could help in diagnosing this. I'll pm him. FYI, your GP was the same color as my GP, so I'm trying my best to get yours fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiderw31 Posted January 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Ok, so I've gotten a chance to do a bit more testing, and here is what I've got. When cranking, the tach as well as the speedo drop down below zero. I picked up a fuel pressure tester, and I'm getting a solid 40psi, and I believe I hear the injectors clicking a bit while cranking. Unfortunately, my timing light is down for the count, so I don't know for certain that I have spark, although I believe I do. When the car shifted from first when this all happened, the revs dropped to about 2k. When feathering the throttle, the needle would climb just a little and then drop back. Also when it was trying to run, I could hear popping and spluttering, as if it was backfiring through the intake at times. All this to say, I'm pretty sure I still had/have spark. So all this leads me to the conclusion that the timing belt has slipped. Any advice on particular brands to look at for the replacement parts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I'd be sure the igntion is all good before moving to the timing belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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