'96 Cutlass, 3100 stalled, and won't start... CPS is OUT! Pg. 7 Pics

[nebojsa_o]

Hi all. I posted some of my problem in the whatever thread yesterday, and got some info, but I will re-type everything I can think of now, and see if you guys can help me out.

 

Yesterday morning I was on my way to work, and after taking a right turn, the car stalled out, and I rolled to a stop. No lights on the dash of any kind, no wierd idling, or anything like that, perfectly normal, and then just shut off... It wouldn't start up again, just kept cranking, so I pushed it to the side, and called a tow truck. Now the car is at home, pushed into the garage (up the damn driveway).

 

When I turn the key, it just cranks until I let go of the key. Doesn't turn over, doesn't almost turn over, it's not cranking too fast or too slow, everything is normal except for the not starting part... The tachometer doesn't move anywhere, just sits at zero. I can hear the fuel pump, so that's not the problem.

 

I tried pulling the codes, and there are none active, or stored in the memory.

 

ManicMechanic said probably the ICM or the CPS. I took the ICM off today to get it tested, since it's easier to access than the sensors. Got it tested a couple hours ago, ran the test multiple times, and it checked out alright. So it's not the ICM... I found out there are two crankshaft position sensors, how do I know which one I should be looking at, and is there a way to test them out? I know where the one is by the pulley, but I have no clue where the other one is.

 

What else should I be looking at? Maybe the wiring to the ICM, or something else? Any ideas are more than welcome. Would something fuel related have anything to do with the Rpms sitting at zero at all times? Or is that a spark problem? Help me dudes, and dudettes!

 

That's the first time the Cutlass left me stranded in the two and a half years I've owned it. Feels kind of wierd, but I'm not that mad, I'd just like to get it fixed up as soon as I can, since I canceled the plates on the Maxima...

 

Thanks for any help you can provide, and if I left something out (I have a feeling I did) let me know...

[Chancho]

The camshaft snesor is underneath the power steering pump next to the timing cover and the crank shaft sensor is mounted next to the dampiner on the right side

 

im not good with testing so what i just do is go to the parts store buy the 2 parts install one at a time and test the car, if it starts then im good, if not then its just a process of elimination lol

 

but those 2 sensors will do it

[rockfangd]

also check the fuel pressure at the schraeder valve. It should be between 37 and 42 pounds.although you may hear the pump that may not be enough. Then check the spark at the plugs. Good luck to you. Also the coolant temp sensor can cause some havoc so you may want to replace that while you are at it. 11.00 for the part, 2 miutes to install

[Crazy K]

quick check. pull 1 spark plug boot. stick a screw driver in the end and lay it atop the manifold, then go crank the engine.

 

no spark will indicate the crank position sensor or CPS or related wiring.

 

but... Are you certain you checked all fuses?

[89GP_SE]

I am gonna bet its the crank sensor.

 

Do I hear 5 bucks... LOL

[nebojsa_o]

Camshaft sensor was replaced last winter, and not sure if it has anything to do with this.

I checked all the fuses, and they are fine.

Pulled one spark plug boot off, and there was no spark, but I wasn't sure that was a solid answer, because maybe it was throwing spark to a different plug at that time? It doesn't throw it at all of them, does it?

I'm leaning towards the Crank sensors, but I'm not too sure. I'll go buy the sensors tomorrow, and start replacing.

 

Which crank sensor should I be looking at? One on the front of the block, or on the side of the block? It has 2 of them according to the books. Which is more likely to go, or give me that problem?

[Crazy K]

the one at the top shouldn't disable the car... I think.

 

you need the bottom one. I have replaced these by pulling the coolant reservoir and reaching around to the back side of the motor, below the alt with no probelm, one 8 mm bolt, and plenty of spinning while pulling to separate it from the block.

[89GP_SE]

the one at the top shouldn't disable the car... I think.

 

you need the bottom one. I have replaced these by pulling the coolant reservoir and reaching around to the back side of the motor, below the alt with no probelm, one 8 mm bolt, and plenty of spinning while pulling to separate it from the block.

 

Now before he starts going for the crank sensor, would a TCC cause this too, say if the Tourqe converter didnt unlock yet, would that cause it not to start?

 

[ManicMechanic]

no.

[nebojsa_o]

no.

 

Always so negative.

 

Just kidding, don't hurt me.

 

Ok then, tomorrow I'm going after that CKS, and I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for the help guys.

[Crazy K]

We shoula\d all consider the CPS to be a wear part. they often are cracked with age, but sometimes they even still work. I think their life should be about 150k miles max.

 

and the new one should be retained with a metal retainer, another type (earlier version?????) has a plastic retaining tag and sucks.

[Brian P]

Is the CPS at the back of the block, on the passenger side, like on my brothers '90 Z24?? 3.1 and 3100 location is the same?

 

EDIT: Also, I went out again, and cranked it, and the tachometer was just sitting at zero. Does that narrow it down between the ICM and CPS?

 

If you unplug the CPS harness at the ICM (2 wire plug yellow and purple) check for AC voltage between the wires with a multimeter while someone else cranks the starter.

[89GP_SE]

no.

 

LOL i love that answer, straight to the point.

[nebojsa_o]

I got a little bit of a problem fellas. I went out there today, and had a hell of a time finding the fucking thing. Then I found it (I sure fucking hope that's the one) and managed to get the bolt off, but the fucker is stuck in there good. I can't pull it out for the life of me... Any ideas? Is there some sort of a clip or something that's holding it there? I took the motor mounts off, and pulled it forward to give me more room, but it's still not working out... I just don't know how to get it out of there. I grab it with my fingers and turn it, pull on it, try to rotate it, nothing happens, no movement at all. Pliers don't work too well, and a flathead screwdriver kind of slipped, so I broke a piece of the plastic off... I sure as hell hope that's the right fucking sensor, and that actually fixes the problem!

[joey b]

test it first as Brian said. I prefer to do an OHM check with a DMM. It will fluctuate between 400 and 700 ohms, so it is a little easier to read than an AC output. Mine failed at 10 years and 117K miles. It flat out BROKE. The car ran, but the sensor had broken and was hanging from some sort of fabric on the sensor. When I attempted to remove it from the engine the fabric ripped and the sensor fell into the engine.

 

Regardless, test it first. I would also like to add that it is simply a magnet. I really don't find it to be a wearing part. As the crank swings around by the magnet it creates an electric field that it sends to the ICM.

[ManicMechanic]

no.

 

LOL i love that answer, straight to the point.

 

LOL! I was eating at the time.

 

Neb - THey can be a BITCH to get out, especially out of a cold engine. You don't have a block heater, do you?

[nebojsa_o]

I do, would that make a difference if it was plugged in? It's an idea.

And Joey, not sure if you missed my whole post above yours, but the plastic is already broken because of a slipped screw driver attempt. Wether the sensor is fucked or not, it has to come out now...

 

Any other ideas? Plugging it in, and warming it up is better than I had in my head. Anything else you guys can think of?

[ManicMechanic]

Give it a try...As the metal of the block expands, I would say the plastic of the CPS remains the same size.

[nebojsa_o]

How long should I leave it plugged in for? I just plugged it in, an hour or two? Would a heat gun, or hair dryer do anything useful when I go attempt it again? The worst part is that it's stuck in there so crazy, and it's a plastic sensor, what if it breaks off and stays in there? WTF would I do then?

[ManicMechanic]

Just warm it up and try again. Put some pliers on it and twist gently and you might get lucky and it will pop loose.

 

If it breaks, that means dropping the oil pan.

[nebojsa_o]

Cockballs! <- Trailer Park Boys

 

That son of a bitch is not coming out! I don't know what the next step is... I can't reach it from the bottom, or from the side, from the top works, but it's stuck in there so good that I can't get it out. I had the block heater plugged in for two hours, and the block was warm to touch, but it wouldn't budge. I think I'm done for the day, my back is killing me, and I'm pissed off. Maybe tomorrow I try warming it up with something other than the block heater, and get it good and hot, I don't know.

 

Any ideas, and information would be appreciated.

[19Cutlass94]

Theres an o-ring on it that likes to be stubborn. Once you take that 10mm nut off, theres a circle clip on the stud that you need to take off. Once you have that metal clip off, take some PB blaster or some type of lube and give it a little shot. Once you do that you can wiggle it out. Easier said than done I know

[ismellrealbad]

even tho this is not a metal part pb blaster works miracles. soak good overnight

[19Cutlass94]

Well it will help that rubber o-ring to slide out easier more than anything.

[nebojsa_o]

The metal clip that the 10mm bolt goes through came off a few minutes ago (my old man is fucking around with it, I've had enough of it for the day) so all that's there is plastic now. What is this damn pb blaster?? Is it a spray like WD-40 or a oil/grease of some sort? Either way I don't have any, and will have to get some tomorrow. Is it an automotive product, or will I find it in some other section of the stores? I sprayed a bunch of WD-40 on there before the metal clip came off, but nothing lately. I work until tomorrow evening, so that gives you guys time to give me some good advice. Thanks for trying, anything else comes to mind, let me know.