FINALLY! The nightmare is over! (and) Lessons learned...

[glassvial]

First of all, want to thank all of you that replied to my posts of my nightmare '96 Lumina, helping me out with that POS. Someone FINALLY put down cash for it yesterday and drove it away today, effectively closing this sad chapter of my life. The car still had/has other issues, I think it needed rear struts, the blower "selector" for up/down/bi-level/etc. didn't work (but the blower speed part worked fine) the cruise didn't work (because it appears some moron put an after-market in it, or something?) the A/C was never charged up, the interior was dirty, but, the car did pass inspection 2 weeks ago and now it's the fuck out of my life!

 

Lessons learned, take these to heart if you have to do a top-end teardown on your 3100...

 

If you're tearing down in there to do the LIM's, DO THE FUCKING HEAD GASKETS WHILE YOU'RE IN THERE ANYWAY. They're a whopping $13/ea, DON'T fuck yourself and not do them when you're only 16 bolts away, that's stupid. Head gaskets are probably the second biggest failure reason I've seen besides LIM's on these cars, see a ton of them on ebay, constantly being sold for peanuts because of bad head gaskets. Don't become a statistic.

 

DO replace other things, while you're in there. NOW is a good time to do the upper intake manifold gaskets (you'll have to, anyway when you take it off), thermostat, exhaust manifold gaskets, EGR gaskets, fuel injector O-rings, valve cover gaskets, the water pump, distributor plug (if yours still has one) etc. These things are not expensive, don't be penny wise and pound foolish. Also while you have all this ROOM, now would be a good time to do your heater core hoses if need be, or even do the heater core, if you have to. Be sure to check your purge canister, wires, and any other fun stuff you find while you're back there.

 

DO get the heads professionally checked out (pressure tested/cleaned, and resurfaced, if necessary) at the machine shop.

 

DO get the right type of gaskets, be careful of different revisions. I got some of my gaskets at the dealer (after vin check) to verify I had the proper ones, and the rest were all fel-pro.

 

DO buy large quantities of brake/carb cleaner, you're going to need it, this is a messy job.

 

DO a coolant flush/fill and oil change after you're done, you're going to get a lot of shit in the oil, and the cooling system as well.

 

DON'T refill the system with DEATH-COOL. That shit turns into sludge (I just had to use brake cleaner to clean it out of the overfill tank, on one car yuk!). I strongly suggest universal coolant, or a reversion to the old green stuff if necessary. I pickup the universal stuff (super-tech) at wal-mart, around $8/gal, supposed to be good for something like 5 years 150k but we all know better than that.

 

DO a complete valve job on the heads while they're off the car. We found a bad valve the last/final time we worked on the motor, one of those "you couldn't tell by looking at it" kind of bad valves. Only discovered when re-lapping the entire set. Thank God for spare parts...

 

DO take the lifters out while you're at it and drain them out.

 

DO take your time and do things the right way, don't half-ass anything.

 

DON'T assume your head bolts are ok without thoroughly checking them. They DO recommend you replace them if you are doing the heads, but it's not always necessary. Also, DO be sure to properly torque them while you're at it.

 

DON'T get new upper intake manifold bolts from the dealer, they are NOT the right ones! These were a waste of money to me, the "new" bolts are much shorter and have a larger head on them than the "old" bolts. The old bolts torqued down better. Go figure.

 

DON'T mix up the exhaust and intake pushrods, they are different lengths! You're guaranteed not to start and you *will* ruin them if you mix them up, guaranteed (and probably fuck up your valves in the process)

 

DO have a magnet of some kind handy (like a telescoping one) ... it's invaluable for dropped bolts and also getting the valve holders out.

 

DO have another vehicle to drive to the parts store if need be, and start early, this is a very time consuming project.

 

If these tips only help 1 person who reads this long-winded rant, then I'm glad I typed this

 

I'm out, peace.

 

-GV

 

[Andrew]

lots of good advise there!

 

so whats the next car in your life?

[glassvial]

Eyeing a 2002 Dodge Intrepid right now, but it'll probably be sold by the time I get to it (edit: PS. that's a 3.5L motor model, not a shitty Mitsubishi-based 2.7L one). The price is too good to pass up. If that's gone (and it probably will be) I'll be continuing fixing my 98 Lumina (which I just put an A/C condenser, receiver/dryer and the air still isn't cold, go figure. I'm sure it'll need some more too, it definitely has a lack of power to it, possibly fuel related?) and my 2000 Buick Regal (which needs a rack, and there's a TSB on it about the air pump, but I'm not worried about that, it runs fine). Obviously I love GM W-Body's, and other mid-size comfortable cars

[Andrew]

BEWARE the chrysler 2.7 v6 !!!!

[glassvial]

BEWARE the chrysler 2.7 v6 !!!!

Yep, already updated my post, you beat me to it

[Brian P]

The only thing I disagree on is re-using the head bolts. They are Torque to Yield bolts. After they're torqued down once, they've stretched. They might be ok for another run but you're taking a chance. For under $30 for a new set, it's a no brainer.

 

Also the universal yellow long-life coolant is almost the exact same thing as deathcool. It has the same inferior additive package which is what's being considered to cause all these problems. One of the organic acids in the additives is a plasticizer, which might be contributing to so many (early) plastic gasket failures.

 

 

[GP1138]

FWIW: I've never heard of headgaskets being as bad as you've described on these motors.

[glassvial]

The only thing I disagree on is re-using the head bolts. They are Torque to Yield bolts. After they're torqued down once, they've stretched. They might be ok for another run but you're taking a chance. For under $30 for a new set, it's a no brainer.

 

You can't get an entirely new set from, say, autozone. Reason being, not all the bolts are bolts, a couple of them are studs on the 3100, so you could probably replace MOST of them if you go this route. Or, you go dealer and pay per bolt/stud, which gets expensive.

 

Also the universal yellow long-life coolant is almost the exact same thing as deathcool. It has the same inferior additive package which is what's being considered to cause all these problems. One of the organic acids in the additives is a plasticizer, which might be contributing to so many (early) plastic gasket failures.

 

Haven't heard about any such issues yet with the universal stuff.

[glassvial]

FWIW: I've never heard of headgaskets being as bad as you've described on these motors.

 

Now you have And check ebay, I've seen them there a bunch of times listed with bad head gaskets.

[Brian P]

The only thing I disagree on is re-using the head bolts. They are Torque to Yield bolts. After they're torqued down once, they've stretched. They might be ok for another run but you're taking a chance. For under $30 for a new set, it's a no brainer.

 

You can't get an entirely new set from, say, autozone. Reason being, not all the bolts are bolts, a couple of them are studs on the 3100, so you could probably replace MOST of them if you go this route. Or, you go dealer and pay per bolt/stud, which gets expensive.

 

Also the universal yellow long-life coolant is almost the exact same thing as deathcool. It has the same inferior additive package which is what's being considered to cause all these problems. One of the organic acids in the additives is a plasticizer, which might be contributing to so many (early) plastic gasket failures.

 

Haven't heard about any such issues yet with the universal stuff.

 

The ONLY one short one that could be considered a stud is still a bolt. On the front head, closest to the water pump. It's a combination bolt has a threaded top "head" for a torx bolt, to mount the front A/C and motor mount bracket. So what I've done is just buy the head bolt kit for any 3100, and if that one bolt is not correct, either get it from the dealer, or re-use that one.

[glassvial]

The ONLY one short one that could be considered a stud is still a bolt. On the front head, closest to the water pump. It's a combination bolt has a threaded top "head" for a torx bolt, to mount the front A/C and motor mount bracket. So what I've done is just buy the head bolt kit for any 3100, and if that one bolt is not correct, either get it from the dealer, or re-use that one.

 

Right, that's the one I was referring to In my case, upon inspection of the bolts, there were none that were stretched/pitted/etc. plus I had another whole bolt set from my parts donor car, so any bolts that were even questionable were tossed, but I only recall 1 or 2 at most. I guess what I'm saying is it's a judgement call on those, in this case, new bolts were definitely not needed, but every job is different, right?

[glassvial]

OK nevermind about the Intrepid, the guy made a mistake, it does indeed have the 2.7L motor, ugh, oh well no interest there, moving on to fixing my other vehicles now

[patgizz]

FYI you can't see bolt stretch, you're talking thousandths there.

[Andrew]

FYI you can't see bolt stretch, you're talking thousandths there.

i was just gonna say that!

 

this is why i always recommend getting ARP bolts when possible. they ARE reuseable.

[PCGUY112887]

Or just get a Felpro set for about $25, if you buy them for the right motor you DO get the stud part for the motor mount everytime!

[Brian P]

Or just get a Felpro set for about $25, if you buy them for the right motor you DO get the stud part for the motor mount everytime!

 

Sometimes Felpro bolts won't be readily available for every motor. Like on my '95 Olds. I could not find anyone that had the correct bolt set in stock, so I used a set for a '92 3.1, and reluctantly re-used that one bolt.

[WC-Frogger]

I have a 2003 2.7 concord w/ 64598 k great car But motor is knocking ! dealer changed all fluids for the life of car when I took the car to dealer... to have them resolve the noise they told me to trade it off ??? ..... Now you know why dodge is giving away the life time warranty to all 2008 cars,,, because they have screwed us and it now coming back at them in market shares ( lack off ) Stay away from the 2.7 v6 !!!!!!!

[WC-Frogger]

Can you pull the engine of a cutty w/ 3.4 out from the top ?

[ShockTherapy]

yeah.

[glassvial]

I have a 2003 2.7 concord w/ 64598 k great car But motor is knocking ! dealer changed all fluids for the life of car when I took the car to dealer... to have them resolve the noise they told me to trade it off ??? ..... Now you know why dodge is giving away the life time warranty to all 2008 cars,,, because they have screwed us and it now coming back at them in market shares ( lack off ) Stay away from the 2.7 v6 !!!!!!!

 

Interesting, by 2003 the 2.7 motor was supposed to have been "fixed" ... apparently not, either that or maybe you've got an "early" model that was still using '02 parts. Either way, I'll never touch a 2.7 motor in those cars, a motor swap is way too expensive

[Brian P]

I have a 2003 2.7 concord w/ 64598 k great car But motor is knocking ! dealer changed all fluids for the life of car when I took the car to dealer... to have them resolve the noise they told me to trade it off ??? ..... Now you know why dodge is giving away the life time warranty to all 2008 cars,,, because they have screwed us and it now coming back at them in market shares ( lack off ) Stay away from the 2.7 v6 !!!!!!!

 

They'll still void the warranty on the 2.7 if you don't have records of every service you've had done.

[WC-Frogger]

The dealer DID preform ALL of the service ! They dont wont to help... Well they did tell me the will do 50/50 I pay for parts and they cover labor ! my bill for parts 2549.65 > 12 hr labor @ 65.00 > 780.00 pluss I will need to pay for shop supply 10 % >250.00

 

So the dealer wont be gettin sales from me any more

[glassvial]

You could drop in a 3.5L motor cheaper than that

[93CutlassSupreme]

The dealer DID preform ALL of the service ! They dont wont to help... Well they did tell me the will do 50/50 I pay for parts and they cover labor ! my bill for parts 2549.65 > 12 hr labor @ 65.00 > 780.00 pluss I will need to pay for shop supply 10 % >250.00

 

So the dealer wont be gettin sales from me any more

 

Inform them you're going to report them to the BBB, and then actually do it.

 

It won't do much, but it's some sort of a fuck you.

[runt]

You could drop in a 3.5L motor cheaper than that

 

You are correct.