W-body engine pull

[PCGUY112887]

I will be pulling my 3100 from my 96 GP soon to put in a 3500, and I was wondering where the lower engine mount is? I know the engine has to come unbolted from the tranny, and then the 2 dogbone mounts on top come off, then all lines get disconnected.... but where is that lower mount and is there anything else that has to come apart for the engine to come out? Tranny is staying in the car.

 

Thanks.

[Brian P]

I'll make you a list tonight (if noone else does it right) I've done this way too many times

[PCGUY112887]

Please do, thanks

[Brian P]

I have a few minutes at this moment.

 

That lower mount, all you need to do is crawl under the car, and remove the 2 retaining nuts keeping the mount onto its "cup" on the frame. Other things to do....

 

Bottom:

- unbolt AC compressor from bracket and set aside

- Remove starter

- Remove flexplate-to-torque converter bolts (accessible once starter is removed. You will have to turn the engine manually at the crank pulley to get at all 3)

- Disconnect exhaust downpipe (preferred), or unbolt crossover and remove rear exhaust manifold.

- Remove right side transmission-to-engine block retaining bolts (I usually just remove the 2 bolts going into the trans diff cone area, and leave the bracket bolted to the engine block)

 

Over:

- All hoses including upper, lower, and 2 heater hoses (nearest the throttle body

- Remove cables from TB or just unbolt the TB and set it aside

- Undo two fuel lines with special quick disconnect tool

- Get all accessories out of the way

- Unbolt P/S pump and set aside

- Remove alternator (preference of mine for added space) keep the bracket bolted to the engine

- Disconnect engine wiring harness that goes to the EGR, Throttle body, igniton module, MAP sensor, Oxygen sensor, injector harness, etc and set aside

- *** Disconnect knock sensor and oil pressure sensor wiring (You don't want to pull these apart accidentally)

- remove crossover heat shield and crossover (optional for added space to get to the bellhousing bolts)

- undo bellhousing bolts, disconnect 2 ground wires attached to 2 of these bolts *** ONE Bellhousing bolt in the BACK of the motor is facing the OTHER direction. You can only access this from the passenger side of the car. I usually use a long 1/2" extension and get at it by feel from the passenger side fenderwell.

- Support transmission from the bottom with a jack, or jackstand (use a big piece of wood to prevent gouging the pan)

- lift up evenly, be sure motor mount lifts out of its cup first, then shake the engine free from the tranny.

 

I may have missed some so I'll add as I think about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PCGUY112887]

I have a few minutes at this moment.

 

That lower mount, all you need to do is crawl under the car, and remove the 2 retaining nuts keeping the mount onto its "cup" on the frame. Other things to do....

 

Bottom:

- unbolt AC compressor from bracket and set aside

- Remove starter

- Remove flexplate-to-torque converter bolts (accessible once starter is removed. You will have to turn the engine manually at the crank pulley to get at all 3)

- Disconnect exhaust downpipe (preferred), or unbolt crossover and remove rear exhaust manifold.

- Remove right side transmission-to-engine block retaining bolts (I usually just remove the 2 bolts going into the trans diff cone area, and leave the bracket bolted to the engine block)

 

Over:

- All hoses including upper, lower, and 2 heater hoses (nearest the throttle body

- Remove cables from TB or just unbolt the TB and set it aside

- Undo two fuel lines with special quick disconnect tool

- Get all accessories out of the way

- Unbolt P/S pump and set aside

- Remove alternator (preference of mine for added space) keep the bracket bolted to the engine

- Disconnect engine wiring harness that goes to the EGR, Throttle body, igniton module, MAP sensor, Oxygen sensor, injector harness, etc and set aside

- *** Disconnect knock sensor and oil pressure sensor wiring (You don't want to pull these apart accidentally)

- remove crossover heat shield and crossover (optional for added space to get to the bellhousing bolts)

- undo bellhousing bolts, disconnect 2 ground wires attached to 2 of these bolts *** ONE Bellhousing bolt in the BACK of the motor is facing the OTHER direction. You can only access this from the passenger side of the car. I usually use a long 1/2" extension and get at it by feel from the passenger side fenderwell.

- Support transmission from the bottom with a jack, or jackstand (use a big piece of wood to prevent gouging the pan)

- lift up evenly, be sure motor mount lifts out of its cup first, then shake the engine free from the tranny.

 

I may have missed some so I'll add as I think about it.

 

Thanks a bunch. I have put the things I'm not quite sure about in bold.

 

Can you explain the flexplate to torque converter bolts, or maybe a picture if you know of one? I always thought the flexplate just stayed bolted to the engine till it came out...

 

Right side transmission to block bolts, these are in the same location as the grounding bolts are correct? Looking at the engine, on the right side, about 6 of them total that hold the tranny to the engine?

 

Knocksensor... no idea where it is. Oil pressure, that's the plug in the bottom of the pan correct?

 

This engine is going to be pulled out, it's accessories and timing cover going on my 3500. In the mail is a cam, springs, external crank trigger, throttle body, etc. for the 3500. Along with a Powrtuner and S&S headers . Hopefully the headers fit OK, some people have said they fit fine in their W's but 1 other person mentioned having to cut off the flange on the headers for everything to fit right.

[Brian P]

Yes, the flexplate stays on the engine. What you are removing are the bolts that attach the flexplate to the torque converter. This is where the engine rotation is transferred to the transmission.

 

I forgot the word "bracket" in this, so I added it:

 

- Remove right side transmission-to-engine block bracket retaining bolts (I usually just remove the 2 bolts going into the trans diff cone area, and leave the bracket bolted to the engine block)

 

This is a separate support bracket between the passenger side end of the transmission and the block. If you're looking at the engine from under the hood, the bracket is actually on the LEFT, way below the alternator. You can usually see it if you take the wheel off and look thru the fenderwell.

 

Your knock sensor is next to your oil pressure sensor, which is next to the oil filter. The sensor on the bottom of the oil pan is for LEVEL. Disconnect all that as well.

 

Nice project you have going there. The guy that had to cut his flange to fit has a Monte Carlo. Not a big modification, and well worth it to avoid any issues with body contact. That's something I'd love to do to the Olds as well, but I get the feeling I'll be changing to another cam sooner than later.

 

What cam are you going with?

[slick]

I haven't been around much in the 3500 scene lately, but I know of atleast 1 person with a 3500 equipped Beretta, needs quite a tune though. Has that been pretty much the concensus with all of the 3500 swaps so far, needing badly tuned?

[PCGUY112887]

Since I don't have an oil pressure gauge, I guess I won't have that sensor? I gotta find a place to put my autometer oil pressure sensor on the 3500

 

So these bolts that attach the flexplate to the torque converter, after taking off the starter what will I see? I am just having a hard time visualizing what you mean since I have never taken anything like this apart.

 

I got the 1393 grind cam from Ben, not super aggressive since this will be my DD. I also got the comp cams springs, custom pushrods, a 65mm throttle body, etc.

 

Superdave with his 3500Z and someone else (forgot who! ) I spoke with both said that it ran decent with the stock tune. I am working with Charles from DHP and some members on the Powrtuner forums to try to make a 3500 hybrid .bin file. Basically my plan is to take my stock BIN, then try to copy all of the critical values over from a BIN from say a G6 to get a close tune. After that it would need more work for the cam, etc but at least it would be much better than trying to run the engine as a stock 3100.

[Brian P]

 

Since I don't have an oil pressure gauge, I guess I won't have that sensor? I gotta find a place to put my autometer oil pressure sensor on the 3500

 

You'll still have an oil pressure switch there for the dummy light on the gage cluster.

 

So these bolts that attach the flexplate to the torque converter, after taking off the starter what will I see? I am just having a hard time visualizing what you mean since I have never taken anything like this apart.

 

Once in there you won't necessarily see the bolts. With the starter out, you'll see the back face of the flexplate. You need to manually turn the engine and stop when the bolts come into view. There's 3 of them, 120 degrees apart. I rotate the engine using a 1/2" breaker bar on the crank pulley/dampener bolt. Turn clockwise of course. I don't have a pic of this but I'll look around.

 

I got the 1393 grind cam from Ben, not super aggressive since this will be my DD. I also got the comp cams springs, custom pushrods, a 65mm throttle body, etc.

 

Yeah I was thinking of trying one of those cams too!

 

Superdave with his 3500Z and someone else (forgot who! ) I spoke with both said that it ran decent with the stock tune. I am working with Charles from DHP and some members on the Powrtuner forums to try to make a 3500 hybrid .bin file. Basically my plan is to take my stock BIN, then try to copy all of the critical values over from a BIN from say a G6 to get a close tune. After that it would need more work for the cam, etc but at least it would be much better than trying to run the engine as a stock 3100.

 

I saw your thread on there, I'm on that forum as "Rhedalert". I did a basic tuning method like you suggested, except I went from 3100 settings to 3400 settings. This got me closer. (I have since gone to a 3400 file anyway) I'm hoping we get a 3500 file to view (though I'm just about done with tuning, just curious how the 3500 settings are), but things tend to take a LONG time over there to get anything. I waited over 4 months from the time I purchased the PT to the time I was able to TUNE my Olds. It's tough to get the ball rolling quickly over there if you don't have a 3800, but patience is the key and it will happen.

[pwmin]

sticky?

[slick]

sticky?

 

I'll go ahead and do that. I'll leave it open for discussion for a while.

[Brian P]

Being we'll make it sticky, I'll organize my post later on.

[slick]

We could add this to FAQ later once all discussion is done.

 

If someone wants to do a write-up of dropping the entire cradle for swapping engines, I'll make it a sticky as well.

[PCGUY112887]

Yay now I have a sticky on both forums!

 

Turn clockwise of course.

Is there anything bad about turning it the other way? While I was getting my crank pulley off my 3500 I think I turned it the other way a few times

 

Here is my thread on the Powrtuner forums for those who have access

http://www.powrtuner.com/index.php?showtopic=6093

 

I am basically being told now that my 96 PCM is no good for tuning, and that I can directly swap in a 97 PCM to give me more tuning options.

[PCGUY112887]

Also, is there any way to leave the power steering pump in the car without disconnecting it? I'm not even sure how to disconnect it, one soft line can be undone at the pump and the other is a hard line all the way back till it connects to a soft line through what looks like a non-removable connector.

 

I rather just keep all of the fluid in there since I don't know how to bleed a power steering system, the pump will go right back onto the 3500 since I am using the timing cover from my 3100.

[TurboSedan]

i always leave my PS pump in the engine bay when i pull the drivetrain. just unbolt it from the front timing cover and set it aside.

[Brian P]

Yeah, just unbolt the pump from the engine (3 bolts accessible thru the pulley holes) lift it up and set it aside. Don't disconnect any lines.

 

What's different about the 3500 timing cover? I remember seeing a 3500 in a car with electric power steering, yet the mount for the hydraulic pump was still on the timing cover.

[PCGUY112887]

I have been told that everyone swaps their covers because accessories don't fit correctly on the 3500's (including the PS pump).

 

When everything is out and in front of me, if it looks like it will work then I will use it. The cover had to come off anyways for the cam so no biggie.

[PCGUY112887]

 

 

 

[PCGUY112887]

OK small problem, how in the world do you get the bolts out of the flexplate? I got the starter out and many things unhooked up top, and I see the 18mm bolts and I can get on it, I just don't have any room to wrench it. From under I am pushing up with very little space and there is no way to make enough torque to break them lose, so I try from the top and I have no room to pull and the ratchet head rubs on the oil pan making the whole socket to slip off the bolt if I try to torque it. I can use some extensions and get it out over by the oil filter (which I have not tried yet since the oil is still in it) but that's about it.

 

How did you get those out? Seems like air tools may work too.

[Brian P]

Caught me right before I signed off

 

I used a long 1/2" extension I think it was a 12 inch? that allowed me to put the ratchet around the compressor area. But I have also done it using a shorter extension and being careful not to slip. What I do is as I'm loosening it, sometimes the flexplate will start to rotate, so I let it until the socket hits the edge of the engine block. Then I give it more muscle to get them off. I also always use loctite when reassembling those.

[PCGUY112887]

Ok I will go out and try that. Loctite... check. In fact what other bolts have to have loctite... head bolts?

 

How do you align these holes for the bolts to go back into the flexplate when putting the engine back in? Seems like it would be a huge pain trying to do it the same way I am getting them out.

 

EDIT - Update. I got the bolts out, much easier after pulling the oil filter and oil filter drip guard.

 

I coulden't get the power steering pump out for the life of me, everytime I would lift on it it would hang up on the very edge of the fuel rail and I coulden't move it foward at all. I ended up taking off the entire upper manifold, then fuel rail, then alt to get that son of a bitch out.

 

I got the compressor removed and hanging by some plastic straps.

 

I still can't find what tranny bracket you are talking about

 

All that is left is the magical bracket, downpipe, mount and bellhousing bolts. The mount I THINK I found, I see 2 bolts comming through with nuts on them under the engine, so I will assume those are for the mount and I unbolt the nuts it will be OK. The downpipe, well I am suck there. I can't see any way to reach down to unbolt it, and since I have headers I don't need any of it so I am just going to cut it off under the car. Still waiting on someone to come home so I can borrow their sawzall.

[PCGUY112887]

OK how in the HELL do you separate the engine and the tranny? Everything on the list is done, the mount bolts come out when I start to lift, but I lift and I can't shake the tranny lose from the engine. The bracket is off and all 6 bolts/studs are out of the bellhousing, the 3 bolts are off the torque converter/flywheel, it just don't break lose. I shake and shake, twist, turn, it's VERY stuck. If I keep just pulling up, the axles start to become very stressed at the boot so I have to let it back down so I don't tear it.

 

There has to be some trick to this?!?

[Crazy K]

you got the one that engien to tranny bolt that runs backwards from the rest(from the engine to tranny) at the very rear?

 

there are also the guide/dowl pins that hold them aligned. you need to stick a crowbae and force the tranny and engine away from each other before lifting.

[PCGUY112887]

Where would the best place be to pry? Right now the engine mount bolts are sitting on the cup, not in their holes since the whole thing is twisted a bit. I took a flatbar and tried to pry through where the starter was, but got no where since I can't pull it to the side at all. I can't see it prying apart at all unless I lift the engine, but if I lift the engine then there is stress on the guides you mention and it won't come apart.

 

Oh and BTW yes I did get the reverse facing bolt, I count 6 bolts/studs that I took out and the 3400swap guide shows 6 of them.