91' CS cradle into a 93'?!?! Problems Problems Problems

[RJansen658]

Ok, so I got a 93' Cutlass Supreme yeterday with a bad trans. I also have a 91' Cutlass Supreme with no title, but the engine and trans are good.

 

I thought about this, and technically, it should work.... I think. I know I can't simply swap transmissions because the 91' is a 4T60, and the 93' is a 4T60-E. So I have set out to swap the entire cradle...which I think will work, so long as I swap the entire engine haness and ECM, which really isn't any more work.

 

I have found a few problems, but I think I can deal with them. I noticed that the 91' has flare fittings for the fuel line connections to the fuel rail, where the 93' uses the clip on connectors. There are also differences in the accelerator cable mounting, but easily overcome.

 

This is my first CS, so I am not too familiar with the differences between years. I have thought about what possible differences there are and all I can come up with are:

 

1. Is the wiring at the C100 the same? I know it will mate, but are the wires in the same locations in the plug?

 

2. The rack and pinion shaft is the same right? I can't see them making it a different size, but who knows?

 

3. Is the downpipe the same? Will the 93' exhaust bolt to the 91' manifold? BTW, the 93' has dual exhaust, and someone whacked the cat already but did a mediocre job.

 

4. I haven't touched the 91' yet, did they have ABS? Cuz I am gonna want wheel speed sensors... and tone rings;p

 

Now I don't really care if I swap the motor or not, the 91' does have a LOT less miles tho. But the engine harness for the 91' is damaged where it runs along the bottom of the radiator core support, accident damage. I'd like to use the 93's engine harness, but it contains plugs for the 4T60-E, which won't have anywhere to plug. I am concerned that if I try to use the 93' harness, I'll get codes, and it may not even drive right.

 

It also occured to me that perhaps I should use the original cradle, and just swap the trans and tv cable on. If I did this, maybe I would need to switch the ECM? Would it work with the 93' engine harness?

 

Dammit this is too much to think about...

[Crazy K]

I have found a few problems, but I think I can deal with them. I noticed that the 91' has flare fittings for the fuel line connections to the fuel rail, where the 93' uses the clip on connectors.

use the 93 fuel rail on the 91 motor? OR in fact the lines connect at the fuel pressure regulator, thru fitting on each line. the fittings are between the FPR and the send and return lines, and can unscrew from the FPR. swap them and call it a day.

 

 

1. Is the wiring at the C100 the same?

maybe. no reason exist for them to have changed it between these years. you can compare the wire colors one at a time as a last resort to be certain if you need to. Can anyone else comfirm this?

 

2. The rack and pinion shaft is the same right? I can't see them making it a different size, but who knows?

should be. yes.

 

3. Is the downpipe the same? Will the 93' exhaust bolt to the 91' manifold? BTW, the 93' has dual exhaust, and someone whacked the cat already but did a mediocre job.

same. use whichever is best.

 

4. I haven't touched the 91' yet, did they have ABS?

ONLY if it has a PMIII!!! But your 93 will. now you have an issue. if your 91 does not have ABS you will not having working ABS on the 93 if you use the 91's CV axles the axles you use with the 4t60non-E must have the splines on the outer side for the abs sensor. a source of used axles with the ABS splines can be/include a 92 3.1 Lumina Euro or a 92 3.1 CS with the 4t60... but reman axles can be bought.

 

Now I don't really care if I swap the motor or not, the 91' does have a LOT less miles tho.

if the 91's motor is in good condition, I would just swap the entire drivetrain without ever detaching the engine and transmission. in fact, I would do it with the wiring and ECM attached.

 

But the engine harness for the 91' is damaged where it runs along the bottom of the radiator core support, accident damage.

fix it. use solder and heat shrink tubing.

 

I'd like to use the 93's engine harness, but it contains plugs for the 4T60-E, which won't have anywhere to plug. there are changes related to the tranny, but it may be a headache to correct the difference.. unless it is really shredded, it would be easier to fix the original, plud you don;t have to remove it from the drivetrain.

 

It also occured to me that perhaps I should use the original cradle, and just swap the trans and tv cable on. If I did this, maybe I would need to switch the ECM? Would it work with the 93' engine harness?

choose which ever cradle is in better condition. they are the same.

choose which ever engine is in better condition. they are the same.

YOU must use the 91's ECM with the non electronic tranny.

 

the easiest thing is to:

unplug the C100 firewall connector (located behind the alternator)

leave the ECM/PCM attached to the wngine harness and disconnect the harness from the fans grounding straps, etc etc.

 

remove the full drivetrain with the wiring and ecm/pcm ties and bundled atop the drivetrain itself. I removed the drivetrain out the bottom personally.

 

[RJansen658]

@Crazy K

 

Yea, I thought the fuel lines might switch out near the fuel rail, wasn't sure if the connection was the same there at the fuel rail.

 

So let me get this right, I can't just use the axles out of the 4T60-E to get abs? It has to be out of a 4T60 car with ABS, and the 91' CS didn't have it? Hmmm...

 

I hate repairing wire harnesses... just aren't the same to me after repair. I wanted to use the 93' harness, but who knows what they changed when they added the 4T60-E controls into the ECM. I knew someone was gonna tell me to just repair it.

 

I will be working on it tommorrow, I'll update this thread.

[Crazy K]

So let me get this right, I can't just use the axles out of the 4T60-E to get abs? It has to be out of a 4T60 car with ABS, and the 91' CS didn't have it? Hmmm...

EXACTLY. I know the passenger axles are different. I don't know about the drivers side. donor or reman, you must get one with the abs toothed ring

 

 

I hate repairing wire harnesses... just aren't the same to me after repair. I wanted to use the 93' harness, but who knows what they changed when they added the 4T60-E controls into the ECM. I knew someone was gonna tell me to just repair it.

repairing is fine if you do a professional quality repair. keep in mind I did about 100 under dash splices in my 95 this weekend. hench pics of my car without a dash courtesy of gp1138.

 

how bad is the wiring? some scrapes and exposed wire or complete wiring lobotomy?

 

 

here's what I do to fix wire.

 

strip the insulation, do so without breaking any of the copper strands.

sandpaper the exposed copper wire(for solder adhesion), twist the wire, sand again, and cut to length.

slip heatshrink tubing up the wire.

twist the wire pieces back together.

solder

slide the heat shrink tubing back over it and heat.

 

I use a craftsman 100w solder gun. get a gun and not a solder iron if you have the chance.

I've very sparing in my use of heat shrink tubing, I often cut it down to fit and sometime double coat is high risk areas. in a weather exposed areas I have even coated the wire with rtv which is sealed in by the heat shrink tubing to displace moisture.

I'm also anal and if I have to add length to wires, I dive into a massive collection of scrap wiring taken from cars I have shredded and find wires of matching color.

I've added HUD wiring to two cars added pelnty of power accessories and re built the exterior forwrad lighting in two care where the wires were shredded from vandilism and an accident.

never had an issue once I ditched the basic wal-mart solder iron.

[RJansen658]

how bad is the wiring? some scrapes and exposed wire or complete wiring lobotomy?

 

Not that bad, the car was donated, someone crashed the car in the front, which wrecked the rad, fans, bent the core support. Then they pulled it out a bit, almost straight, and attached what was left of one of the fans with zip ties, cut both fan power wires right out of the harness, like as far away from the fans as they could get for some reason, and wired the fan to a toggle.

 

Never underestimate the power of a determined idiot.

[RJansen658]

OMFG I worked on it until midnight tonight. I got both cradles out, got the 91' bolted into the 93', got the old 93's laying on the floor, and got the 91's carcass drug to the scrap pile.

 

I still have a lot of work to do.... And there were a lot of differences...

 

I did overcome the fuel rail issue by swapping the connector tubes off the fuel rail. This was not easy to do without disconnecting the throttle body cooling tubes, but I managed it.

 

There are also major differences in the way the vacuum supply is connected from the manifold to the brake booster. The 91' was non ABS and had a hard steel line plumbed from the manifold over toward the booster. The connection port on the booster was on the drivers side. The 93' had a nipple on the manifold and rubber hose over to the booster. The connection port is on the passenger side of the brake booster. I swapped on the 93' nipple to overcome this.

 

There was another difference in the way the heater hose was plumbed on the drivers side of the engine. On the 93', it is a hard steel 5/8" nippled tube, with a curved hose connecting it to the heater core. The 91' on the other hand, has a 5/8" hose, that goes onto another extension tube that connects to the heater core. So basically, I have two 5/8" hoses facing each other, I plan to swap the extension tube from the 91' onto the 93', it appears possible.

 

One difference, that appears insurmountable without fabrication, has to do with the wiring for the underhood fuseboxes. Both the 91' and 93' have a fuse box on the passenger side, only the 93' has one on the drivers side as well. The extra one in the 93' is for the exterior lights, and ABS. This is the little box with that post you can jumpstart with. On the 93' the fuel pump relay is housed in the passenger side fuse box. On the 91' the fuel pump relay is all by itself, on a little bracket, that also has the jumpstart post, for lack of a better term I will call this a fuse box too. On the 91' the drivers side fuse box comes out with the cradle, but on the 93' the drivers side fuse box isn't connected to the cradle. Both fuse boxes mount to the same location, and both are meant to have the supply line from the positive battery terminal bolted to their jumpstart post. And I have to have both to have everything work right....

 

I also found a difference in the front cover and lower radiator hose.... the diameter of the lower radiator hose connection on the water pump housing/front cover is much smaller on the 93's engine, and required I use the 91's lower radiator hose. Also near to the front cover, the alternator bracket was *slightly* different in that the 91' used studs which kept the lift plate in place, and the 93' the lift plate comes out with the alternator.

 

@CrazyK - I see what you meant about the axles....there is at least 2 inches difference in the passenger side length. I can verify that the outer ends of the axles are the same, but the inner end differs between the electronic and non-electonic versions. I did swap the strut assemblies so that I would have the wheel speed sensors, but I need axles with tone rings now.

 

In any case, I think I will be done tommorrow, hopefully driving it home....then I can get some pics up...

[Crazy K]

damn good work!!!!!

 

most of the issues you encountered are typical slight changes in design year-to-year... pick and choose what works for you.

 

Now this is of the upmost concern:

One difference, that appears insurmountable without fabrication, has to do with the wiring for the underhood fuseboxes. Both the 91' and 93' have a fuse box on the passenger side, only the 93' has one on the drivers side as well. The extra one in the 93' is for the exterior lights, and ABS. This is the little box with that post you can jumpstart with. On the 93' the fuel pump relay is housed in the passenger side fuse box. On the 91' the fuel pump relay is all by itself, on a little bracket, that also has the jumpstart post, for lack of a better term I will call this a fuse box too. On the 91' the drivers side fuse box comes out with the cradle, but on the 93' the drivers side fuse box isn't connected to the cradle. Both fuse boxes mount to the same location, and both are meant to have the supply line from the positive battery terminal bolted to their jumpstart post. And I have to have both to have everything work right....

I am worried that they may have changed to C100 connector to accomplish that.

 

I suggest the acquisition of a 92 underhood harness if you deem it impossible to remedy the issues with the harnesses you have. Alternatively, Maybe you should use the 93 harness and link the 91 computer to it, and then rewire the trans connector. -hell it might be a direct swap using the 91 ecm.

 

might be time for a seperate post asking for

 

91, 92, and 93 C100 pinouts,

91, 92, and 93 ecm/pcm pinouts.

and 91, 92, and 93 trans connector pinouts.

 

otherwise you can at least sit there and compare the wire colors on the connectors for info.

 

 

@CrazyK - I see what you meant about the axles....there is at least 2 inches difference in the passenger side length. I can verify that the outer ends of the axles are the same, but the inner end differs between the electronic and non-electonic versions. I did swap the strut assemblies so that I would have the wheel speed sensors, but I need axles with tone rings now.

any W with abs made 92 and earlier with the 4 speed auto. so you know wht you need if you go locaye some

 

 

In any case, I think I will be done tomorrow, hopefully driving it home....then I can get some pics up...

I posted pics of my flying vert while I was swaping the engine with frame!

[RJansen658]

Well.... I am so close I can taste it now.... Everything is done.... I think... I haven't tried to start it yet. Just have to add fluids, and hook up the shift cable inside.

 

I suggest the acquisition of a 92 underhood harness if you deem it impossible to remedy the issues with the harnesses you have. Alternatively, Maybe you should use the 93 harness and link the 91 computer to it, and then rewire the trans connector. -hell it might be a direct swap using the 91 ecm.

 

I don't think they changed the C100 connector. The reason I say this is, on the 93' the fuel pump relay does still come out with the cradle only its in the passenger side fuse box. I think its just wired differently.

 

I did however overcome the drivers side fuse box issue. I did it in quite an ingenious way, I'm very proud of it. Upon inspection of the fuse boxes I saw that both used the same teminals clipped into the bottom of the fuse box for its relay connections. I pulled out the fog light relay from the 93' fuse box, and removed the pins from the fusebox, then did the same for the fuel pump relay box from the 91' cradle harness, and put those pins into the 93's fog light relay location. Then i unbolted the wired from the underside of the 91's jumpstart post, and bolted them to the underside of the 93's jumpstart post. Only other thing I had to do was solder one wire for the fuel pump fuse that was housed with the relay on the 91' harness into the 93' fuse box harness. I aslo used the fog light fuse location to accomplish this. The result was the 91's fuse box combined into the 93's in a completely stock looking and professional way.

 

Of course... in anyone ever has to pull the cradle again, they will have to pull those pins out to separate the engine harness from the body harness.

 

The main reason I say the C100 is probably the same, is because after my modifications to the fuse boxes, I turned the key forward and the pump primed, the correct dummy lights came on on the cluster, and the guages did their test sweep. I didn't try to crank it, but I assume if the cluster and fuel pump worked correctly, everything should be fine.

 

I will know tomorrow for sure. I would have to say, it was fun to compare two different model years so closely, I got to see all the little differences... And contribute creativity in the swap, and the best part is, it is turning out great.

[RJansen658]

It is done.... I drove it home today... it drove good, but it has a few more issues I need to take care of.

 

The front brakes pulsate.

It needs an alignment now.

The exhaust is loud.

The trans pan gasket leaks slightly.

No radio.

My digital cluster won't work until I repin the harness.

 

@CrazyK I can verify the C100 did not change. Everything worked perfectly.

 

On another note: There is a HUGE difference in the general performance and shifting of the 4T60 vs. the 4T60-E. This is my first W with a non-electronic trans and the difference is like night and day. The 4T60 seems to react more slowly, shifts happen at the right time, just the actual shift itself seems to take longer. The accelerator pedal also has much more impact on shift points. It's not that the trans is goofy or anything, its just a noticable difference when I have driven 4T60-E's for the last few years.

[Crazy K]

[ns87]

Rjansen:

What you did would have taken me years. You're very determined and make it seem easy. Congrats

[Crazy K]

p.s. what was the final word on axles?

[RJansen658]

p.s. what was the final word on axles?

 

I didn't wind up doing anything there. I put the 93' strut assemblies with the wheel speed sensors on, but used the 91' axles. I also swapped in the digital UB3 which had no ABS bulb in it, so I have no annoying light. I kept the outboard ends of the 93' axles, thinking perhaps I could just get some new outer boots, and swap ends in the future.