RareGMFan Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 So....I didn't use the TGP at all last Saturday (when it dipped down to -10 overnight), and when I went to start it to go to my sister's place for the Superbowl, she wouldn't start. It was cranking very slow, then it just stopped cranking. Even giving it a jump didn't help. So I charged the battery overnight, and same thing Monday morning. It would just crank very slowly a couple times, not fast enough to start it up. Then it would just start clunking when you hit start. Something was also squeaking horribly while it was trying to turn. I gave up and rented a car to get to work. I charged it again overnight, and tried it Tuesday. The cranking speeds varied quite a bit, but it actually turned over, started, and died a few seconds later. Tried it again, started, and stayed running on it's own after feathering the pedal for 4-5 seconds. I locked her up and let her run a good 15 minutes or so while I went inside. I was going to drop off the rental, have them give me a ride back, and take the TGP to work. I shut her down, got ready for work, and then left the apt. to turn the rental in. I thought I'd better double check the TGP. I get in, turn the key, and it's chugging super slow again and wouldn't start!! I was so pissed. I used the rental car again, because I didn't have time to try it again. It's been the same story every morning since, fully charging the battery in it, AND buying and charging a new battery, but it hasn't started since Tuesday. It came VERY close to starting Sunday night, and yesterday morning. It sputtered a bit, but wouldn't maintain the higher cranking speed long enough to turn over. So yesterday, I had it towed to the mechanic before I went to the Chicago Auto Show, still thinking maybe it's the starter, because that's been on its last leg for months (had to tap it with a hammer on several occasions to get it to work), plus several times trying to start it during all this, the starter just spun freely, not catching. I got a brand new starter from Oldskool to throw in. Well, I call the mechanic to see what the status is, and he said he didn't even bother putting the starter on after hearing the noise it was making while trying to start. He said he thinks something's seized up internally!! Maybe a broken crank. Needless to say, I was stunned. Kinda' ruined the rest of the show for me. I have to get the car out of there in the next day or two, but I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it. This makes no sense. How can it go from being a normal daily driver, to something being seized up inside overnight? And how did it start on Tuesday if this is the case, and come very close to firing up yesterday and the night before? My suspicion is that one of the pulleys has seized on the accessories. The belt is very loose, and is splitting, and Oldskool noticed it wasn't turning the alternator while I cranked it (though the pulley seemed to be spinning ok by hand). It had been having tons of random bought of overcharging (dummy lights come on, lights get WAY too bright, etc.) I also know the bearings in the water pump, or one of the other accessories, had been squealing like crazy the last couple of weeks. I'm hoping the noise is related to one of these things, or still an issue with the starter/solenoid somehow (maybe rubbing the fly wheel?). Anyways....I'm having a hard time swallowing the idea that it just stopped working, period. I called them and asked them to try removing the accessory belt when they get a chance, and see if still makes the noise/won't start. Anything else to look for/it could be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psych0matt Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 it sounds to me like what you think. if it wasnt spinning on startup then I would assume you have a seized accessory or something somewhere, my first thought was alternator before you even mentioned it. either way, it sounds very unlikely for it to have all the sudden over night broken something. I would check all your accessories first, and if that fails, then maybe think about intermals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Pull off the surpentine belt and see if it starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted To Boost Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 I say its probably a seized accessory pulley- if something internal was seized, during when you drove it last you would have noticed a significant power loss and/or bad stumbling. Probably an accessory/accessory pulley dragging or seized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockTherapy Posted February 13, 2007 Report Share Posted February 13, 2007 Pull off the surpentine belt and see if it starts. X2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RareGMFan Posted February 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Yeah, like I said at the bottom of my post, I called them and told them to take off the belt and try it. I haven't had a chance to get back to them from work, but I'm going over there tomorrow morning to see for myself what the issue is, and to tow it back home if it's a no go. If I pull off the belt, and it still turns extremely slow/squeals like hell.....is there anything starter related that can cause this? Like I said, I've had to use a hammer several times to get it to start, and quite a few times during this current ordeal (2-3 times in a row each time), it's just spun freely without catching anything when I hit start. And when it did catch, it would usually turn really slow (getting slower as it goes, like a dying battery), till it would just clunk, all the while making a horrible screeching noise as everything was turning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 a few of our work vans have had starters fail in this fashion. the first time it happened to me i coulda swore that it was a battery... till i load tested it. new starter, and it started cranking normally again. do yourself a favor and get a starter for a newer 3100/3400 (2002 impalla w/3400) car it is much smaller and higher torque then the OE one on your TGP. if you are more convinced that it is something internal, pull your pulgs and try cranking it. or pull the plugs and starter and try manually turning the engine with a long screwdriver. and be sure all the accessories spin nice and freely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfangd Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 my friend is having the same prob with his 93 blazer with the 4.3 but it sometimes runs but still wont drive. it has been 2 months and he finally had it towed to a mechanic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5speedz34 Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Starters are easy and cheap enough for these cars that I would start with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 I'm leaning towards starter just from my personal experience...on cold starts on my Lumina I have good putput from the battery, etc, but the car still barely turns over and fires up (if I don't plug it in, I'm talking like -40 degree starts)...just seems like the OEM starter is too weak to turn over a cold motor full of thicker oil from it being so cold. I would assume if your starter is in less than decent condition this would have an adverse effect on the starting of your car. Plus if one of your accessories is frozen that's just an additional strain on the starter - though like everyone else is saying, removal of the accessory belt should help diagnose a frozen accessory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RareGMFan Posted February 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Well, I went to look at the car at 9 this morning. It's been in a heated garage the last couple of days, and it had a jumper/booster hooked up to it (charging since 7, according to them). Still turning extremely slow. The belt wasn't turning at all this time, and every time he tried to start it, whiffs of smoke were coming up from the vacinity of the AC/water pump area. I didn't have the time to mess with taking the belt off. This was all being done while the main manager wasn't around (the other manager allows his mechanics to do such jobs on the side, which is why I took it there for the starter). But the main manager was coming in at 10 this morning, so we had to move the car out of there, and pretend that it had never even been pulled in/looked at. We're just going to tow it home, and I'll deal with it later. Will swap out the starter when the weather gets better out. Right now, I need to get the TSTE accelerating like normal so I can have at least ONE reliable daily driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 It takes 2 MINUTES to take the belt off. All you need is a ratchet! Take the damn thing off and see if that's the problem. It's obvious something is seized since you say you're seeing smoke from down there. Don't even touch the starter until you pull the belt. In fact, the exact same thing happened to my '90. The A/C compressor seized and it wouldn't start about 50% of the time. When it did, it'd smoke, squeal, and make some godawful noises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 I agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RareGMFan Posted February 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Oh I know. Sean's coming down this weekend, and we'll give it a good look over then. I know it only takes a few minutes to take it off, but I was in a hurry this morning. I didn't want to get the guy in trouble. And yeah, something's definitely seized....but now I'm starting to fear that what's seized IS the crank. Though I thought Josh said he saw the crank pulley turning this past Saturday. I don't know. I guess I'll just expect the worst at this point, and be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be one of these other problems. But I'll definitely look into it a bit better on my own time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3WH12-96 Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 It takes 2 MINUTES to take the belt off. All you need is a ratchet! Take the damn thing off and see if that's the problem. It's obvious something is seized since you say you're seeing smoke from down there. Don't even touch the starter until you pull the belt. In fact, the exact same thing happened to my '90. The A/C compressor seized and it wouldn't start about 50% of the time. When it did, it'd smoke, squeal, and make some godawful noises. agreed with the A/C compressor thought ...it has the most "draw" on the accessory system when operating properly but when a compressor locks up you are gonna experience all the things you describe in general sides a starter is not gonna SQUEAL a belt will take the belt off and see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RareGMFan Posted February 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Oh, I forgot to add, they supposedly took off the battery and tried it yesterday (I called them and told them to do so). They said it made no difference, but I'm not taking their word for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Oh I know. Sean's coming down this weekend, and we'll give it a good look over then. I know it only takes a few minutes to take it off, but I was in a hurry this morning. I didn't want to get the guy in trouble. And yeah, something's definitely seized....but now I'm starting to fear that what's seized IS the crank. Though I thought Josh said he saw the crank pulley turning this past Saturday. I don't know. I guess I'll just expect the worst at this point, and be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be one of these other problems. But I'll definitely look into it a bit better on my own time. If the crank was seized, it wouldn't even attempt starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RareGMFan Posted February 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Ok, update on the situation. 99RegalGS just spent the day here, and we took a look at the TGP real quick. First try, it just clunked. Same thing on the second try. Third time, there was just nothing (and from there on after). With a multimeter on it, the battery is still showing plenty of juice, but it drops from just shy of 11 to 7 when I turned the key to start, so I'm still suspecting the starter is toast. We got the belt off, and this didn't help the situation. However, I tried with all my might to turn the A/C pulley, and it would NOT budge. Also, the crank is spinning perfectly fine by hand. So I think we are one new starter and A/C compressor (or bypassing) away from getting her running again. I KNEW there was no way it just randomly broke something internally so severely, that the motor wouldn't even turn over. Stupid freaking "mechanics". It took less than 5 minutes to prove them wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White93z34 Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 you can get a shorter belt to bypass the compressor till you get it replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RareGMFan Posted February 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 I know. Thus why I put (or bypassing) in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Seized ac ? crazy. check the fusible links coming off the starter. You may want to replace them if oil has got to them. mine was shorting out on the starter case... put some nice wireloom on there maybe. when it had that dead short the dash lights and everything was super bright. nothing worked and wouldnt start. but put a fully charged battery on it and the post would heat up super hot. wonder if the ac clutches will disengage once the new starters in? good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaloutsider Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 It's not crazy at all. Both my first-gens had seized A/C compressors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockfangd Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 mine isnt seized yet but it will be soon. Anyone know if i can get a bypass pulley for my ac as they do not make my car without ac so i cant get a shorter belt. I think the compressor is putting a slight drag on my engine. I was told that the compressor gets used with the heat too, Is this true? It is my 94 cutty [attachment deleted by admin] Removed to free up storage space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99RegalGS Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Yeah, the a/c idler is sized tight! Although the compressor itself still turns. lol I KNEW there was something up with the accessories when I saw how bad the belt looked. And the starter being locked up also is probably what confused the other guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5speedz34 Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 3.1 MPFI's don't have idlers for the AC do they? Could it be the clutch on the compressor is stuck on? Or does that only work when the car is running? I would pull or replace the compressor, and then get the idler pulley for non-ac cars. Make sure to get a newer 3x00 starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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