TGP Values

[IRONDOG442]

Nicely wrapped up Irondog442 ! Too bad it had to be such a rough road for everyone just to lay out the ground rules and facts from opinions and preferences . Agreed very much on your reply , can only add (not in a “your wrong†approach as is always a flame starter !),

 

Since this is a TGP Forms, anyone is bound to get a reaction when challenging the pride of these owner’s cars, even just a little but that goes for talking about any owner’s car much. If a TGP owner went to the CV Forum I am sure even small judgmental statements/less than complimenting opinions about the CV would heat things up real quick, and no, worshipping a TGP is not expected just to visit here .

 

 

 

Jeff M

 

 

You got exactly what I was trying to beat around the bush on with out offending anyone here, I know many people get huffy and defiensive and I understand I have a HUGE PASSION for Oldsmobiles and get pissed when someone bad mouths them, the 3.1 liter powered cars are a bazillion times better as far as reliable but somehow lack the value the 3.4 cars have and I dont think its just the dual bucket seats in the back. I can wrap it up by saying I like W bodies just as much as the next guy here, thats why were here in the first place right???

[Jeff M]

Again, totally agree . I don’t think I am alone on this one either, but I so much more enjoy getting along with others, and the far greater opportunity of improving on what I know/learning, yea boring to some and that's fine. I come to forums to gain knowledge, like ways to fix my car, and then from what I have learned here in the past and/or by my own hands, to come on here and help others so they can fix their cars, a way to return the favor for what the forum once gave to me, again too sterile a thinking for some members , but that’s just my personal take. Opinions and experiences can differ, but the intent to share help with others is the same, long as you just let someone have their difference of opinion. Its just self-defeating to any topic to cram an opinion down someone’s throat, especially when it hits home, this is always going result in nothing more than like those days at school when someone yells there is a fight outside and the hallway clears in an instant as everyone leaves, people just love to watch a fight, or instigate one so that others will do the dirty work for them .

 

Its funny, you love your Olds and I respect that, I don’t even have to like them to respect that you do, though I share the same likes in my own way. Respectfully under the skin they are about the same as a Pontiac (or other w-bodies), just different shaped interior and exteriors basically, long as we are comparing like a 3400/auto version of each. Without getting too detailed I can say there are just too many similarities for one to be used to clearly beat down another, at some point its back to the condition of the vehicle if one has to be better than another, but no matter any of those points or opinions, its still personal preference in the end that dictates what you love (or financial budget), or love to hate as some get to . Ummm, and maybe you are right and that’s the reason for me, it might have been the dual rear bucket seats that started me owning and liking the TGP, I do like a rear that has some sort of a dual cheeks arrangement, wonder what that leaves the pass-through as .

 

Jeff M

[RareGMFan]

Just to add a couple things...

 

Ebay is hit and miss all day long and not a good representation of values of anything automotive wise

 

Very true, but to a certain extent. I would fully expect run of the mill cars, like the Intrigue you mentioned, to not get jack. Why go to eBay to buy an ordinary car when they are a dime a dozen locally, where you can take your time inspecting them, come back to look at them again, etc? However, when it comes to more specialty type cars that take some searching to find (GN, TGP, 40th Anniverary 'Vette, etc.), eBay is definitely one of the top places to look for one. Hard to find items is what eBay has come to be known for, so I think it's more than valid for establishing the value of such cars. Granted, even there, all it takes is a couple people that really want something for it to get stupid expensive (like the 40k mile AWD STE me and VassBMW1 went at it for).

 

 

 

Whether Barrett Jackson is full of rich people or not still does not make it a a non good way of determining values

 

It's not that it's full of rich people. It's that it's full of rich people trying ever so hard to show off their money. They couldn't care less what the car is worth. Out of spite, and to say "I've got more money than you", many of the auctions there are run up to something well beyond reasonable in an exercise of vanity, not out of passion for the car being bid on. So if they're not going off guidelines, the auctions are not a very good barometer of value. I'm sure some of the price guides take a look at these auction prices, but they obviously don't give them TOO much credit. I can promise you that for just about any car you look up in KBB, you'll find a multitude of auctions at B-J that went WAAAY over that.

 

 

 

All of my postings are really trying to reflect that the value of either of these cars I feel are accurately represented by the big three (KBB, Edmunds, and NADA) and even they may be a little over inflated. IMO Neither car is a good investment now and there is a bleak outlook for their future collectibility.

 

As I said before, I agree that NADA is SEVERELY inflated, especially on the TGP pricing. But if the big 3 are inflated, what does that make Barrett-Jackson? Why even bring Barrett-Jackson auctions into this when you know they're so much more expensive than the values the big 3 give?

 

 

 

Personally... While I like the way the Supremes and the Turbo Grand Prixs look, I would not collect a Supreme Ragtop or a TGP and think that either of them have any value. To be honest hoping they will have value in the future is a long show to say the least given their reliability and track record.. They look nice but that’s as far as I will go... I was only playing devils advocate here.

 

So this is what it oil boils back down to, eh? The same thing I said from the beginning. Several times, I mentioned that I don't think they're worth jack in the grand scheme of things, just a bit more than average 16 year old cars, and certainly more than most w-bodies. Somehow, that statement got blown into a battle of trying to prove the Cutlass vert is worth more. Which is fine, if one wants to engage in a friendly sibling car debate. I wasn't trying to be a jerk through all this by any means. I was merely trying to have a debate based on factual information, and I felt you were allowing personal bias to cloud your argument. You were wavering all over the place as to what to judge these cars' values on, depending on which optimized the Cutty's worth. Thus, I had to point out all the major flaws in your logic/argument for debate's sake. But none of that was done for the sake of a "my TGP is better than your Cutty" pissing match. I'm WELL aware that both aren't worth jack over all. Hell, I'm the first one to tear up a person asking too much for TGPs, AWD STEs, Celebrity Eurosport VRs, etc. There is only a very small cult following for the cars, which may give them a hair more value from their ordinary counterparts, but is far from making them some highly sought after collectible.

 

I've always said I'd be one weird millionaire, because my car collection would literally consist of primarily late '80s/early '90s FWD oddities ('86 Century GS, LeSabre T-Type, Cutty Supreme pace car, etc). A losing proposition from a financial standpoint, to say the least. But again, I don't care. I love and am fascinated by the off-shoot models of otherwise ordinary cars from that era, and don't really care if no one else is, or if they all end up being worth $1 in 10 years. It's not like I'd be interested in selling them if they became worth a small fortune, anyway. They're sheerly for my enjoyment, and they do that quite well........when I'm not kicking the crap out of them for not working.

[Jeff M]

So we do agree the topic will change direction

 

To start back, though not sure how much else can be said. Rare cars are of value to those who like to be different, those that live in areas like Cali will even feel like a TGP is hard pressed to impress or stand out for you (your wallet) with the many other very unique/custom cars that roam the streets . Owners there compete very hard to stand out from the many other great wheels on the road. I remember test driving my first TGP at a dealer in a very small town outside of Lansing Michigan, the sales guys there were more excited than I was about the car, and I was the one looking to buy one . Then while in bigger cities like Chicago, Detroit, New York, Boston, LA and others in Cali, after a few days on the roads there, a TGP was further back from the pack of unique cars, made me realize the TGP could use some exterior mods to keep me satisfied with its uniqueness, so a tasteful spoiler, smoked headlight covers, better finish on the stock rims or new/bigger/louder rims were needed to see my car better from the glare of so many other shiny cars

 

I also think that previous owners who have had TGPs with less than perfect interiors and exteriors are more interesting in ones that don't need work to restore those areas to new or near new appearance, to have full enjoyment of what the car had to offer, so often times they will spend more on their next TGP purchase. I know that when I looked at getting my cars I picked ones that had good exteriors/solid metal most of all, and good interiors, that since its a lot of painstaking work to fix those areas proper, where as mechanicals are much easier and afford more chances to dress up better, and add more power. But there are owners who are equipped to do exterior work and you get very nice unique looking TGPs like Loren II med-dark gray version, and the purple one though it's not a color for everyone, but it does change the looks of the car a lot.

 

As I have been an owner since 1990, and started hooking up with other owners through magazines in 1991, then on the Internet since 1995, I have talked with literally a few thousand TGP owners, and from their talks have found that the really nice TGPs often stay with the owner, and don't show up for sale very often, hence maybe why we don't see higher dollar ones And maybe too since those owners have friends that have seen these really nice TGPs, and are lined up to snag them when the owner goes to sell (wife is pregnant, need a 4-door I hear from owners quite often), just some other ideas. But here is something different, how about the way the insurance companies look at the TGP verses the Cutty Vert , other than the "turbo" part sometimes being known and the resulting penalty from that insurance company, what does an equally powerful 3400 Cutty Vert compare to a Turbo Grand Prix, just curious, sure its not something I would brag about my TGP costing more to insure than a Cutty Vert , that's like bragging my gas mileage is worse than yours

 

Well, back to work, I have been working in a way for the TGP community by expanding on the info about these cars, so my web sight database is getting much better, and the idea of people visiting my web sight less embarrassing to me .

 

Jeff M

[IRONDOG442]

Condensed version of this entire thread;

 

W-body Cliff's notes if you will....

 

Intellectual Point Scale

 

Jeff M.............+1

IRONDOG442.....+1

RAREGMFAN......+1

 

rest of forum -3

 

LOL

[RareGMFan]

I've always been kind of in between about modifying cars like these. I mean, on the one hand, it would be nice to personalize them in ways I think they should have done from the factory. On the other, I almost feel like I'm disrespecting the car by doing that (taking away certain features that set it apart from its "regular" counterpart). As far as what that does to value, since these cars aren't hardcore collectibles yet, that's kind of an in between thing, too. I think if it's done properly (clean, factory looking), it can actually HELP the value. I remember the black one not far from me in Joliet, IL. Had some engine mods, and the DIC was covered up with a navigation system that fit perfectly. It had some other mods I can't think of off the top of my head, but it actually went for close to $4k, if IRC.

 

The way I personally approach it is, if it is in nearly pristine condition, I don't touch them. Just clean them up real good, and have it be a prime example of what this car was. If it needs decent amount of restoring (like my TGP), I don't mind adding some personal touches to the car. I wish I could have the time to work on that damn car, because I have SO many ideas about how I'd like to dress it up, though I think Kuntzie already beat me to my idea of a charcoal gray leather version of the interior I was going to put in (that interior has been sitting in storage for about 2 years, now). *shakes angry fist* Oh well, I'll get to copy his blueprint for an 11 second TGP.

 

As to current value, I still stand by the evaluation I listed a bit earlier. If you'll notice, there is a decent discrepancy between average condition TGPs with average mileage, vs. the "OMG that thing is MINT" price. And that $5+ plus figure was being very conservative, because as we've seen, they can hover right around the $8k marker (like the $8,500 '89 I referred to earlier). The majority of that is because of what Jeff stated, though not just the pain of restoring them. These cars aren't exactly cheap to restore, either. Look at the 2 most common problems alone: The ABS mastercylinder, which is $800+ to replace at the absolute cheapest, and the crossover pipe, which is $400+ even with the Jeff M version. You're already at over $1,200 IF you're going to do this yourself, much more with labor costs involved. Then you have to worry about the health of the turbo, clogged cats, bad injectors, etc. So medium to rough conditioned McLarens go for a lot less than the low mileage, extremely well kept ones. It appears that TGP fans, and rare car collectors alike are willing to pay more to just start out with one that needs virtually nothing done.

 

As for insurance....mine just show up as a Grand Prix SE & STE (shhhh ), so my insurance is dirt cheap on both.

[Garrett Powered]

wouldnt they be quick to total it out if the value is less?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Condensed version of this entire thread;

 

W-body Cliff's notes if you will....

 

Intellectual Point Scale

 

Jeff M.............+1

IRONDOG442.....+1

RAREGMFAN......+1

 

rest of forum -3

 

LOL

 

hey.....

[GOT2B GM]

I've always been kind of in between about modifying cars like these. I mean, on the one hand, it would be nice to personalize them in ways I think they should have done from the factory. On the other, I almost feel like I'm disrespecting the car by doing that (taking away certain features that set it apart from its "regular" counterpart). As far as what that does to value, since these cars aren't hardcore collectibles yet, that's kind of an in between thing, too. I think if it's done properly (clean, factory looking), it can actually HELP the value.

 

The way I personally approach it is, if it is in nearly pristine condition, I don't touch them. Just clean them up real good, and have it be a prime example of what this car was.

 

It appears that TGP fans, and rare car collectors alike are willing to pay more to just start out with one that needs virtually nothing done.

 

 

 

I agree 100%

[Jeff M]

I think I got a point for mass of reply content , see if this gets me another point, or a negative for being too wordy .

 

To stay in a more neutral territory I can offer some insight on the crossover pipe and ABS unit. First and easiest, last I checked when GM offered the crossover pipe, the retail was over $1,600 with tax, nasty, fortunately addressing the problem areas is not impossible nor that expensive, required welding is not so common but can be done by a qualified welder, and as I have seen, many TGPs that show up on ebay already have their pipe’s fixed, so a bonus when shopping (or selling) if this is done! As for the ABS, I blame owners more so then the ABS unit. Yes, and I would like to also add credit to this type of braking unit, one that is not run off engine vacuum! But first and I only add it here first (typically add it where its more applicable) so that I can fend off the quick reactions some can have to a concept they don’t like hearing or can disagree with a portion of the statement without first reading all the info and then deciding their thoughts…….and yes there are turbo cars with vacuum power assist brakes, more on that later . Alright, we need engine vacuum to give vacuum brakes their power assist, that’s a given, but toss in potential problems and it’s not always the best approach to take. What if the check-valve for the vacuum source gets gummed up by the oil mist from the crankcase evacuation system, or collects moisture and freezes up during colder temperatures? Though it might not be common (if it was real common there would be a lot of law suite) it is still a potential condition, I mean condensation is happening any time there is a differential in temperatures as with in an engine bay. Then there is the vacuum source as it is coming from an engine, that is not only traversing from cold to warm after start-up (condensation time), but also exposed to the outside weather as in a humid or rainy day. So moisture can come into play and even if it’s not common, manufacturers do not want to take a risk on anything that can backfire, if they can avoid it and without too much expense.

 

Then there is the vacuum capacity of the brake system, it can run out if there is not enough new vacuum happening to keep up with the demands, as in a turbo engine that is boosting/causing the vacuum brake line check-valve to close/no more vacuum…….yes that sounds like an unlikely condition but listen to Syclone and Typhoon owners and you will find the condition does occur. My Typhoon has had times during street driving/playing where the power assist/vacuum supply runs down, and it’s a scary feeling when your brakes change their mind and don’t want to stop and you freak out and mash the pedal to save your ass. Also check the web sights, SyTy owners have a long detailed list for the best launch of a high-hp engine setup, that includes the all important part of revving the motor briefly to get enough vacuum for the brakes to do a decent hold when doing a brake-stand or brake-torque however you like to name it. This happened to me once when I was out in a remote industrial district racing a 10 second Grand National, I forgot to rev (get enough vacuum for the brakes) before brake-torquing up the boost, and I creeped off the starting line before the flag went down, had to back up and do the starting sequence over .

 

So like everything in life, pros and cons everywhere, important part is learn them so that you can decide which ones you can live with, yea it sucks at times, so what .

 

Now as to the brakes used on the TGP and TSTE, no vacuum related brake concerns with this boosted engine, a blessing that I hope will now be seen ! And this arrangement is not that uncommon, Buick Turbo Regals, T-Types, GNs and GNX have a similar setup (though runs at a lower hydraulic pressure than ours), as well Turbo Lotus Esprit that had the same Powermaster III the TGPs had back in those days, there are probably others. And again just for those……yes there are other turbo or forced induction engines that use vacuum brakes that work just fine, there are ways to design-out less of these concerns, but going the route like the TGP and others avoids all this, cost more?, well the ABS is part of the cost too with the “brakes†you get (dual part there), and like all technology, its gets cheaper costing and better over the years, back in 1989 this was a good technology and with some care it can last just fine……..

 

Why others complain about it most often, well, its not “most often†really, its only because of forums being around that we get this idea with the brakes being a pain, or the TGPs costly to own and fix, bull!!! Other than it’s a 17+ year old car with an average of 100+k miles, but think about it this way, (many have heard me say this before, sorry, needs repeating again): how often do we get owners that come here just to say: "my TGP runs great, thanks for asking, goodbye!" eh?? Why do most people come to any car forum, to get help fixing something, meaning it’s mainly the ones that are having a problem that post here and cause the perception of broken TGPs all the time. Total up how many TGP/TSTE owners we have here that post compared to how many TGPs there are out there and I know there is a huge difference, seldom do people come here without a problem. We do often get the new owner who is all revved up to make his car perfect, and often times has not worked on cars much (young maybe) so they do need a lot of help getting up to speed on turning a wrench, and knowing the workings of a W-Body, and to some extent the differences with the TGPs workings, those 3 categories are fricking huge to master :exclaim:, let alone be just capable at, I have been working on TGPs since 1990 and I am still learning new tricks, new ideas, new troubleshooting. Often times the frustration while we are still learning results in bitchen about our car; damn TGP, damn walletmaster III, and I can feel the same way too don’t get me wrong, but I don’t want to miss the opportunity to change my perception in the way I am trying to present here so that I can get to liking my car again, everyone would rather like their cars then hate them, any car.

 

Last (take a few days to read this if you don’t like long posts, or just ignore it, I won’t know if you do ). Powermaster III is a great unit, I base this from being on TGP forums since 1996, then talking to way more owners in emails over the last 12 years, and working on cars here, their failures can 90% of the time (big number I know) be shown as a lack of proper care, seriously, and I hope anyone that has a PMIII will take this perception the right way, that your car/brakes is not prone to eating your wallet to death. So, first up, we have a wear item, it’s the accumulator, replace it every 4-6 years and avoid the following; fried contacts in the pump motor relay caused by excessive on-off cycling from a failed/low-charge accumulator; worn out PMIII internals from the excess metal filings running around that are built up from the pump motor cycling all the time from a failed accumulator, filings that runs around with the brake fluid chewing up the unit’s seals. Granted some filings will show up with proper care and over time, but its nothing compared to letting the pump motor cycle all the time from a failed accumulator. Since we do have an amount of metal filings from the pump’s gears floating around in the brake system, clean and flush it out of there now!, don’t wait till it wears the internals of the PMIII unit, repair of this unit is the most expensive of any part in this braking system, if a flush is done as a regular part of vehicle maintenance (every 4-6 with the accumulator thereafter), then there is no reason the PMIII cannot last a very long time, saving you money, saving you headaches, saving you from hating for the car which often times results in it later showing up on ebay for $500, and as we have all seen: “ABS Light On but brakes still workâ€Â, or “pump motor won’t shut off†(relay contacts welded shut from excessive pump motor cycling). Yea I am repeating myself here, hoping one of my approaches/perceptions will take hold and everyone can feel better about their brakes, and their car.

 

Last, I promise, but I wanted to be as fair as I can to owners, the condition of your car is not totally yours to blame, unless you are the original owner , you know what i mean, it's the past care that we have to deal with too, can't change the past, but we can change its future.

 

Alright, nuff said, and then some.

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

I've always been kind of in between about modifying cars like these. I mean, on the one hand, it would be nice to personalize them in ways I think they should have done from the factory. On the other, I almost feel like I'm disrespecting the car by doing that (taking away certain features that set it apart from its "regular" counterpart). As far as what that does to value, since these cars aren't hardcore collectibles yet, that's kind of an in between thing, too. I think if it's done properly (clean, factory looking), it can actually HELP the value.

 

The way I personally approach it is, if it is in nearly pristine condition, I don't touch them. Just clean them up real good, and have it be a prime example of what this car was.

 

It appears that TGP fans, and rare car collectors alike are willing to pay more to just start out with one that needs virtually nothing done.

 

 

 

I agree 100%

 

YES, totally agree 100%, nicely said too

For me and just me, I don't sell my TGP/TSTE so I don't mind changing things from stock.

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

Since 89gpse has not complained, yet , going to go off-topic a bit here. Did the 1988 Cutty Vert (Indianapolis?) 500 Pace Car have the first HUD unit? I know they used the production 1989-90 TGP to "test-run" them to prove a reliable technology for future cars.

 

Shawn Linn knows these cars very well so he might have said something about this before?

 

Jeff M

[RareGMFan]

 

Last, I promise, but I wanted to be as fair as I can to owners, the condition of your car is not totally yours to blame, unless you are the original owner , you know what i mean, it's the past care that we have to deal with too, can't change the past, but we can change its future.

 

Well that's what I was getting at concerning values for these cars. Sure, much of the damage could have been prevented, but in most cases, it wasn't, thus leading to costly things like replacing the PMIII, etc. And this is precisely why many people are willing to pay top dollar for those that WERE well maintained.

 

 

 

Since 89gpse has not complained, yet , going to go off-topic a bit here. Did the 1988 Cutty Vert (Indianapolis?) 500 Pace Car have the first HUD unit?

 

I'm a huge fan of this car, too, so I've tried to pick up as much info and photos as I can on it. Yes, they were the first car to get the HUD.

[RareGMFan]

 

Intellectual Point Scale

 

Jeff M.............+1

IRONDOG442.....+1

RAREGMFAN......+1

 

rest of forum -3

 

According to NADA, my posts are worth at least a +4.

[IRONDOG442]

Thats only High Retail though and I don't list those when its not benefitting Oldsmobile.

[RareGMFan]

Well played!

[Dave Bodley]

I gota few pics of our 89 TGP They are located at http://azauctionservice.com/tgp1.JPG Numbers 1 thru 13 Sorry i did not get them posted but i could not get them to load on ythis site I will try to enter the vin number in a day or 2 .............Very interesting, After reading all of these posts I am glad to see all of the talk on the Values, I do plan on putting my 1989 TGP in the Jackson auction in the next few years I bought it planing on holding it for 20 years, I have put about 4500 miles on it it is still like new inside and out. I am pulling it out side tomorrow for its yearly checkup I will take some pictures of it for the site, Time will tell us the price, its not just what it brings at the time of the sale its also how much you enjoy the auto while you own it Thanks for the site, Dave Bodley

[futuretgper]

dont' forget to post those pics for us! take lots!

[Addicted To Boost]

x2 take lots of pics!

[Jeff M]

It would be hard for me to part with, or even just park/garage such a pristine low mileage TGP, but maybe if I had one that nice it would only have 4,500 miles as it would only have limited prime fun-time on the road, maybe some car shows and such. And, to each his own on whatever the choice is on what you do with "your" TGP .

 

Before I go further and in case you don’t already know that about me, I love these cars, have since 1990, own 3 now and 2 will die with me. Just would like to offer some other thoughts on what might lessen its recognized valuable-rare potential to the masses. Also this is just “forum info†and is not all directed at any one person .

 

One challenge is the TGP did not have a huge list of options, I see common old muscle cars going for massive bucks just because of it having one option that was hardly ever ordered (exp: 3 made in puke green ), not even a cool or valuable option, just "rare" from that one option as compared to others of the same model/year. I think this has also killed a great many late model cars, none offer much in options any more (maybe 2 engines, 1 tranny, 1 rear-end), typically "Option Plan" A, B or C, big deal , cheaper for the manufacturer to build but still shoots them in the foot, but it is what fuels the aftermarket (I support SEMA ;-). Also the lack of the initial FWD Grand Prix as having much of a heritage or awareness development hurts matters, its hard for it to claim much to its RWD version being that both were so very different from each other. What, a seasoned RWD owner is going to take to a (performance) FWD with no doubt or hesitation ? FWD cars in general did not have at that time much of a performance impression as the RWD cars did from the 40+ years they had been around and stomping the ground, how can you compare to that, even if you could, it would be a long time coming! And it’s far more that American muscle cars are looked at for their unique options (and as valuable collectors ) then something like an American luxury car or truck of that same era, so it hurts that the TGP was the new performance “FWD†from that perspective. It was good to see a few F-Bodies had some very rare options, over the years those faired much better in value then their lesser brothers, and other late model cars, so having more options available (especially good ones ;-) lends to a car having more of a valuable/rarity potential.

 

There is one respected voice that lent itself to the TGP being rare, and valuable (2 different points there!!!!!). Collectable Automobile’s printed article on the TGP pops up on ebay quite often, if you know which one it is, and BTW, I would not kill each other every time one shows up, there will be another!!

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1988-1990-PONTIAC-GRAND-PRIX-TURBO-4-page-Article_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34232QQihZ020QQitemZ300085467851QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

 

Best of luck with your taking the TGP to the prestigious Barrett-Jackson, I think pictures (even video) of such an event would be very valuable . And I would work hard ahead of time to try and overcome the lack of awareness on this car, so that a collector (or someone with bucks to spend) will be informed enough to know its true worth as a rare and/or valuable collector car, I mean there is one red TGP in a museum in Michigan and a proto-type in Vegas, not bad for a FWD car .

 

Jeff M

[mfewtrail]

I mean there is one red TGP in a museum in Michigan and a proto-type in Vegas, not bad for a FWD car .

 

Which museum would that be Jeff? Is it just a standard TGP or a prototype?

[Addicted To Boost]

It's a prototype. I don't remember the name of the museum though...

[Jeff M]

I mean there is one red TGP in a museum in Michigan and a proto-type in Vegas, not bad for a FWD car .

 

Which museum would that be Jeff? Is it just a standard TGP or a prototype?

 

Planing to visit, or live near Michigan? Not sure what others heard but I was told it was a red TGP in full dress meaning complete like we own, but no mention of it being a proto-type version.

 

The one in Vegas was a test-bed or proto-type version.

 

Jeff M

[futuretgper]

he lives!!

[Pontiac6KSTEAWD]

he lives!!

 

No doubt, good to see you again Jeff M. Hope you are feeling better and can return some of those emails!

[Addicted To Boost]

No doubt, good to see you again Jeff M. Hope you are feeling better and can return some of those emails!

x2