TGP Values

[GOT2B GM]

 

Good debate......

 

 

Well I'm going more off what I've seen actual TGPs go for, both on this board, and on eBay. Even junkers/parts car TGP/TSTEs go for around $500. Half way decent condition ones (would take some work, but is restorabie) fetch $1,500 - $2,000 (I watched a TSTE very similar to the condition of mine, except with 175k miles and no leather end at $2,200). Closer to mint go for $2k - $4 (watched an 8x,xxx mile, nearly mint TSTE end at just over $4k). And then the occasional, "omg, it looks like it just rolled off the showroom floor" fetches $5k + (Larry M just bought one with 62k miles for $5,100).

 

FWIW I paid $5K CDN for my TGP which had 64K mi on it at the time so that sounds about right.

[IRONDOG442]

A 95 Cutlass Supreme Ragtop just sold for $22,000 at Barret Jackson still a bad investment considering the car probaly cost $27,000.. Probably more than a Turbo GTP will get for a while .Lets own up to the cold hard reality that cars in general are a bad investment.

 

 

[kuntzie]

my bet my 2010 alot of tgps will be worth 10k + (even with 100k + miles)

 

mine on the other hand will never be worth anything to a serious collector as really i have "butchered" a rare car still to the right buyer i could sget some good $$ but still i got too much money into it now

[RareGMFan]

A 95 Cutlass Supreme Ragtop just sold for $22,000 at Barret Jackson still a bad investment considering the car probaly cost $27,000.. Probably more than a Turbo GTP will get for a while .Lets own up to the cold hard reality that cars in general are a bad investment.

 

Well, I know Barrett Jackson prices can get outrageous, because it's usually a bunch of blow-hards flexing their financial muscle in front of each other. But even at that, if that $22k figure is indeed accurate (not saying it's not true, but I'd love to see details on that auction), that is BEYOND rediculous for ANY gen I w-body, unless maybe if it was Samuel L. Jackson's beater while he was trying to "make it" to the big screen. And even if it DID go for $22k, that doesn't mean anything until we can get a TGP or TSTE up there for comparison. There has to be a level playing field if we're going to keep this fair.

 

I just don't see any reason a Cutty 'Vert would go for even 1/4 of that, or go for more than a TGP. You're talking about a run of the mill car versus something with limited production, and a sense of great history behind it. The original TGP actually ran Pike's Peak. The TGP was a pace car at the Daytona 500. Said pace car was also featured in Days of Thunder. There was also an issue of Collectible Automobile magazine which flat out declared it a collectible (they did one on the AWD STE, too). Not to mention, they ALSO cost $27k....years before the Cutty 'Vert cost that much. So while I love them all, the turbo edition GPs are in an entirely different league from any other gen I w-body. I mean, we're talking about a rare, specialty car vs. an average version from the same platform. Oh, just to clear up, it's not a Turbo GTP. It's actually an SE that was converted to turbo by McLaren, and had the body kit put on by ASC. It was simply known as a Pontiac McLaren Turbo Grand Prix, thus why it's referred to as a TGP.

 

But yes, it all comes down to what I originally said. Unless you're planning on keeping them for many decades, cars are a bad investment.

[89GPSE]

....Even junkers/parts car TGP/TSTEs go for around $500. Half way decent condition ones (would take some work, but is restorabie) fetch $1,500 - $2,000 .......Closer to mint go for $2k - $4 .......And then the occasional, "omg, it looks like it just rolled off the showroom floor" fetches $5k +.......

The single best easement I have ever read on TGP values^

 

And IRONDOG442........

......... more than a Turbo GTP .......

You should be banned for that. TGP TGP TGP TGP TGP

[IRONDOG442]

Details: http://www.barrett-jackson.com/carlist/cardetails.asp?In_AuctionID=221&In_LotNumber=329

 

 

It was lot # 329

329 1995 OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS CONVERTIBLE $22,000.00

 

Link to results page

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/appstest2/carlist/carresults.aspx?auctionid=221&startrange=300&endrange=500&numberperpage=300&orderby=2&showfinalprice=true

 

 

GM made 4,000 1995 Cutlass Convertibles and are already recognized as colllector vehicles as the last Oldsmobile convertible ever produced. and in 1988 The w-bdy 'vert also paced the Indy 500. I don't think the TGP has made that status yet. NASCAR pacer and Days of Thunder apppearance or not. I also have a window sticker from a 1992 Cutlass Convertible which MSRP was $27,395. I love them both too but I don't think that the TGP has the market that the W 'verts do right now.

 

[kuntzie]

the TGP was a REAL pace car

[IRONDOG442]

So was this....

 

and don't forget back in 1990 NASCAR had nowhere near the following it does now. INDY was where it was at in the 80s and early 90s

 

 

[kuntzie]

TGP's are gunna be like the "little sleeper" in the future...some millionaire will buy one and it and then the value will go up a shitload. like everyone knows about cutlass supreme verts.. shit i brought my tgp back to canada and people could belive there eyes, not the condition of the car or anything just the sheer WtF is that, theres no way what your telling me is true, that has to be aftermarket.

[IRONDOG442]

Least we not forget it only had 205 hp and a year later in 1992 GM dropped in a DOHC (timebomb waiting to happen) with 10 more hp a year later. With that car as an owner you will always have to say, "yeah it's fast FOR a V-6" but it has really cool seats and look the glove box has a combination pad on it !!!!

[Garrett Powered]

olds should have put more of those turbo dorc quad 4s in. I think the quad 442s and more w's should have had snails and theyd be more fun for people. 'bout the same HP but WAY more torque at lower rpms.

[RareGMFan]

I realize they both had real pace car editions (though I'm not sure what the popularity of Indy vs. Daytona has to do with this discussion). I LOVE the Cutlass pace car. Problem is, the production models were NOTHING like the Indy Pace Car. The pace car had a 250hp/250tq intercooled turbo 2.3L, while the regular production ones (if you can call 250 cars that) had the ordinary, n/a 3.1L. They also only converted 50 to convertible, of which, all 50 were recalled. Now I'm sure there are still some of those floating around out there. In fact, I'm pretty sure someone tried to sell one on here a while back. THAT, I could see going for $22k, possibly even on eBay. And the original one that Chuck Yeager drove AT Indy? That's what I'd consider a true collectible, and possibly being worth more than the original price tag (if there even WAS one). I'd put that right up there with the original Pike's Peak TGP as far as collectibility and value.

 

It takes more than a modern car being rare to be a collectible. There has to be something special about it (better performance, different body parts, etc) that sets it apart from regular models/versions, and of course, desirability. Otherwise, there were only 4,225 Z34's made in '94, the last year for the gen I Lumina. Does that make them a collectible? There were only 3,704 GPs with a GTP package in '96, 442 6000s made with the SE package in '91 (last year of the 6000), and only 5,261 6000 wagons made from '86 - '90 PERIOD. Guess what. None of those are collectibles. Not even the 423 6000 wagons made in '90, in spite of being what I believe are the last station wagons produced by Pontiac. Yet, that being said, any one of those could go for $30k at Barrett Jackson if the right freak decided he/she had to have it for whatever reason. That's why I disregard BJ prices (alright, no lame jokes, you bastards) when establishing the value of a car. BJ is the equivalent to NADA; grotesquely over-priced. EBay/message boards are like KBB; closer to realistic values. I have no doubt in my mind that a 100% mint, 3k mile TGP with all the original paperwork would fetch some SERIOUS money at BJ, while that same $22k convertible would only get around $5k on eBay. Granted this may be guess work, it's educated guess work based on 4+ years of watching MANY of these cars sell, and not just one high dollar example, which can easily be tossed up to being a fluke. All in all, both these cars lack the desirability aspect that would consistently earn them big bucks, but there is no question the TGP has better potential at fetching more.

 

And yes, it only had 205 hp, and the DOHC had more, but on average (average being the key word), the TGPs are faster. Most owners that have dynoed their bone-stock TGPs have put down way more torque at the wheels than there was supposed to be at the CRANK. Then there's the fact that one simple chip, which won't affect the value since it's a very simple swap, puts these cars deep into the 14's. That puts you right there with the modern, larger displacement, blown L67s. Even IF the performance was weaker, that wouldn't make them undesirable. The AWD 6000s were slower than the FWD models, since they did nothing to beef up the motor (though they were the first cars to get the 3.1 to try and compensate for the extra 300 lbs). I still fully expect them to be collectibles in another few years just because of their significance in Pontiac history.

 

So in spite of some of its short comings, the fact still remains that these were highly specialized cars produced for only 2 years in very low numbers (less than 5k total, including TSTEs) that took a decent amount of work to convert, being compared to 26,194 rag top versions of a regular production car. Now as I said eariler, I mean absolutely no disrespect to the Cutlass. I love ALL the w-bodies. I'd take any of them over most of the newer cars out there right now. But, there is NO contest in current, or future value between these 2.

[Euro]

and because they can go for 350 k miles on the original motor.

 

thats why people buy TGPs???? news to me...so the LG5 is the the only motor in a w=body that can go that high?

[IRONDOG442]

But, there is NO contest in current, or future value between these 2.

 

 

Let's see what 3 of the most popular used car appraisal authorities have to say to support your claim;

 

Kelleys Blue Book

 

Retail Values at excellent condition with 10,000 miles and all options

1990 TGP Excellent $2,545

1990 Cutlass Convertible Excellent $3,840

1995 Cutlass Convertible Excellent $6,660

 

NADA

 

Retail Values excellent condition

1990 TGP Average Retail $6,250

1990 Cutlass Convertible $4,100

1995 Cutlass Convertible $6,062

 

Edmunds

 

1990 TGP High Retail $2,072

1990 Cutlass Convertible $1,777

1995 Cutlass Convertible $3,959

 

The experts thus far seem to disagree with your summation, in fact in Old Cars Weekly out of Iola Wisconsin and Hemmings Motor News (the standard consumer evaluators when it comes to classic or collector's cars) both recognize the 1988-1995 Cutlass Supreme Convertibles as collectible cars already but both fail to list the 1989 and 1990 TGP as a collectible cars.

 

[Garrett Powered]

and because they can go for 350 k miles on the original motor.

 

thats why people buy TGPs???? news to me...so the LG5 is the the only motor in a w=body that can go that high?

 

only turbo motor...

[RareGMFan]

Well let's look at what these "expert" numbers are actually saying. For starters, the '95 Cutty 'Vert ranges anywhere from $3,959 to $6,660. The TGPs range from $2,072 to $6,250. Wow. That's quite the range. Seems like these "experts" disagree with each other as well as me. Oh, and I noticed something interesting on the NADA results. For the TGP, you listed the average retail price, yet for the Cutty, you listed the high end retail price. Why is that? You didn't do that because the $9,500 high end retail price on the TGP blows away anything the experts say the Cutty is worth, did you? Though as I said earlier, I still think that $9k value for the TGPs is ridiculously high, regardless of what the "experts" say

 

Based on perfect condition with 3,000 miles:

Complete NADA Cutlass results

Complete NADA TGP results

 

Secondly, I'm going off what I've actually witnessed both these cars sell for REPEATEDLY over the last few years on the boards, and on eBay. I find that to be a wee bit more important. That's where I gathered my assessment from. But hell, don't take my word for it. Here are some more recent examples:

 

Turbo Grand Prix:

157k miles with bad ABS and cracks in leather driver's seat - $2,000

142k miles with torn front seats, weak details about car, and bad feedback seller - 2,500

62k miles, '89, much nicer car. But again, early negative feedback hurts seller. - $3,500

93luminaz34 paid $5k for his 64k mile TGP - $5,000

Larry M paid $5,100 for his 62k mile TGP. Just about mint, but no leather. - $5,100

 

Cutlass Convertible:

151k miles, rough interior, some mechanical issues. Reserve not met - $1,170

143k miles, but very clean (garage kept in winters). Shakey feedback again, though. - $2,995

71k miles, nearly mint, 2 year warranty FL car - $3,550

The precious '95. Only 72k miles, absolutely MINT, very thorough description, perfect feedback. - $3,950

 

The last Cutty is a prime example to back up my statement. It was sold by someone who knows what they're talking about, and from his description, it sounds like there were people waiting/hoping it would go up for sale some time. He was the former president of the Southern Cali chapter Oldsmobile Club of America, so that makes sense. Pristine condition, low mileage, CA car. Great detail on the 'Vert's history, too. He's also not new to eBay, but has maintained perfect feedback. Yet, all it could fetch was $4k. So as you can see, what the "experts" seem to think, and what the real world results are contrast greatly.

[IRONDOG442]

That last car was hacked and not the original paint and done to this jagoffs tastes and his reserve was not met at that, thats like a salvaged title basically, until you can show me a TGP that sold recently for anywhere near $22,000 I win this round.

[Euro]

and because they can go for 350 k miles on the original motor.

 

thats why people buy TGPs???? news to me...so the LG5 is the the only motor in a w=body that can go that high?

 

only turbo motor...

 

lol whatever you say

[krenzy]

Wow...you know there's this great vibe in here right now. Like daddy just hit mommy and we're all trying to finish eating dinner. Lol...Sorry, nothing to contribute to the real discussion.

[RareGMFan]

*stares blankely, trying to determine if Irondog's last post was a joke, or not*

 

That last car was hacked and not the original paint and done to this jagoffs tastes and his reserve was not met at that, thats like a salvaged title basically

 

Ok...I agree it's not original, which would hurt its value from a collector's standpoint. You're absolutely right. But....salvaged title? Now you're getting down right silly. It's not even close to being "hacked". Hacked requires dramatically changing something that can't be easily changed back. He just painted it a different color, and stuck the newer Olds logo on the front. That's it. How did you get "worthless hacked piece of sh*t that should have a salvaged title" out of that? And the reserve being met is irrelevant. We're trying to find out what people are willing to pay for them, not what the owners want for them.

 

What about the Cutty right above it in extremely similar condition with LESS miles? Not to mention, had it gone for the $7k buy it now (which would have been a bargain, since you feel these cars are worth ~$20k), they would have given the buyer a 2 year nationwide warranty! That's worth a decent chunk of change by itself. But instead, it only reached $3,500.

 

 

 

 

 

until you can show me a TGP that sold recently for anywhere near $22,000 I win this round.

 

Irondog....I thought we went through this already. It seems like this whole debate got started because a Cutty 'Vert sold for $22k at Barrett-Jackson. That's the only "hard fact" you've reverted to time and time again. As I said earlier, the problem with that is (as anyone who's serious about cars already knows), Barrett-Jackson is a place for rich people with over-inflated egos to try to show one another up. It certainly is no way to try and prove what a car is worth. Come, man. You said you consider yourself a collector, so you must already know this. Otherwise, a $22k car wouldn't be selling for ~$3,500 on eBay. If a TGP sold for $40k at Barrett-Jackson, I'd say the buyer was on crack, not "OMG! The TGP is worth $40k!!!!" I certainly wouldn't use it to prove my point in this discussion, even IF it sold for DOUBLE what the Cutty went for.

 

And again, we have to have a level playing field if we're going to keep this fair. So unless you can show me what a TGP in equal circumstances (mileage, condition, etc) goes for, the Barrett-Jackson example is inadmissible. You can't build a case on one piece of "evidence". You need to give multiple examples of fair, head to head sales comparisons before your opinion of what the Cutty is worth has any merit. I flat out took all the TGPs and Cuttys sold on the "completed listings" search. No trying to twist the facts in my favor, no leaving out the most expensive Cutty, etc. Just a straight up evaluation of what the last few cars went for, and in what condition. Unfortunately, you're not returning me the same courtesy. For example, you never addressed the issue I brought about why you compared the NADA average retail value of the TGP to the high-end retail value of the Cutty.

 

Your arguments have some monumental flaws in them. For example, you tried to throw what the top appraisal authorities have to say about the value of these cars in my face, implying my figures were too high. There's 2 problems with that. First, the absolute highest value on these cars in the opinion of those experts is in favor of the TGP by nearly $3k. Second, if you're going to use those experts to say my figures are too high, then those same figures have to apply to the Cutty 'vert, too. You can't just use them against me when they best serve you, and then disregard them when they best serve me. And these experts say that your idea of what these cars are worth is off by at LEAST $15k.

 

Anyhow, I want to keep this a civil discussion, but it's become apparent that it's personal for you. If you're going to continue skewing things, misrepresenting facts, and bringing up statements that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand just to suit your claims, then there is no point in continuing with this debate. It's best we just leave the table mutually agreeing to disagree. This has already veered away from the topic of what a TGP is worth, to a competition between TGPs and Cutlass convertibles.

[kuntzie]

i bet the TGP 'vert would go for over 25k..

 

end of story TGP's Win

[IRONDOG442]

Much to your surprise you did not hit a nerve... Cutlass Convertibles are junk considering the abortion gone wrong (the LQ1), their leaky tops, their heavy body roll and flex around turns, their disposable valve bodies in the transmissions, and their inadequate braking systems that list of problems and their $28,000 price tags are a contributing element of Oldsmobiles falling from grace. I have owned about 10 of them so I know a little bit about them. I did the same thing I am doing with Aleros and intrigues and Auroras now a few years ago...

 

I only hope the TGP is a better car than the Cutty, but knowing how consistent GM is they probably aren’t.

 

Ebay is hit and miss all day long and not a good representation of values of anything automotive wise especially Oldsmobile values... I have already bought an Intrigue for $900 and sold it the next day for $3,500 and just gave it a bath and drove it home from Pittsburgh so either that was a $2600 car wash or ebay is not a good way to see how much a car is worth.

 

Whether Barrett Jackson is full of rich people or not still does not make it a a non good way of determining values, in fact auction results of collector auctions (Barrett Jackson and Kruse Auctions e.g. Auburn Indiana) is one of the way how valuable or collectible a certain car is and many of the Price guides consider those auctions results to compile their database and accurately to gauge desirability. Remember in the early 90s when our economy was in the shitter and there were Japanese investors coming to America to buy 1959 Cadillacs and 1970 Superbirds rather than investing in our stock market. These books used the auction results to represent the values of those cars specifically then and still do the same today. FYI The value if a '59 caddy went from $135,000 in early 90s to $40,000 in the mid 90's.

 

Personally... While I like the way the Supremes and the Turbo Grand Prixs look, I would not collect a Supreme Ragtop or a TGP and think that either of them have any value. To be honest hoping they will have value in the future is a long show to say the least given their reliability and track record.. They look nice but that’s as far as I will go... I was only playing devils advocate here. My name is IRONDOG442 for a reason, its because I own and collect and love 442s they have value now, will have in the future, and have had in the past my favorite year is 1967 and they are now starting to eclipse the already absurd values of the 1970-1972 442 w-30 values.

 

 

All of my postings are really trying to reflect that the value of either of these cars I feel are accurately represented by the big three (KBB, Edmunds, and NADA) and even they may be a little over inflated. If they made a TGP convertible on the other hand given the universal popularity and appeal a convertible tends to offer that may be a different story as to their current or future values. IMO Neither car is a good investment now and there is a bleak outlook for their future collectibility.

 

[Addicted To Boost]

end of story TGP's Win

x2

[Jeff M]

Nicely wrapped up Irondog442 ! Too bad it had to be such a rough road for everyone just to lay out the ground rules and facts from opinions and preferences . Agreed very much on your reply , can only add (not in a “your wrong†approach as is always a flame starter !), reliable is a reasonable factor for those that plan to drive/end up having to work on a car, or plan to sell/need to fix it so the problems won’t hurt the resale value, though anyone dropping some serious coin would like everything proper But often times there are collector types that will get a rare car even if its not reliable transportation (but they don’t run up the auction ramps very well LOL), most cars are not really reliable, especially if there is any age to the vehicle, and/or ownership neglect, and as I am sure you have seen, total rust boxes that are ground-up-restored into very nice cars for the owners, or sold with the hope their time and material costs are recouped, or profit if possible, happens from time to time.

 

I never really hate a car all the way other than like a Ugo (hey, “you-goâ€Â, I just got that ), all have some merit, keeping an open mind like this had me at the first time really seeing a nice condition Cutty Vert/CV being totally impressed, having no preconceptions allowed the car to have a chance to show its stuff, it was a gorgeous car; red/white convertible, it looked way more “fun†then the more aggressive looking TGPs, and I own and love my TGPs, but I like the TGPs for their aggressive stance, and the CV for its beauty (and top-down!), both have merits in their own right! I even think those Cutties were the last great looking larger cars Olds had (other than the 90-92 Toros), till it struggled with the Aurora brand idea/following, those could have done well for Olds, but it was too late, really too bad, owned many Olds in the past (late 60s-early 70s Cutties mainly ), hated to see GM blow that brand . As for problems with a TGP or any car, oh yea, past ownership care hurts the most for any car, but proof things can go good are there are owners I know with over 260-280k miles on the turbo 3.1L motor (original engine/tranny/turbo) so contrary to past fears, turbo engines do not have to be thought of as more troublesome. As for other non-turbo 3.1L lasting this long or longer…………sorry , no Diss here, they can last just as long if properly cared for .

 

Since this is a TGP Forms, anyone is bound to get a reaction when challenging the pride of these owner’s cars, even just a little but that goes for talking about any owner’s car much. If a TGP owner went to the CV Forum I am sure even small judgmental statements/less than complimenting opinions about the CV would heat things up real quick, and no, worshipping a TGP is not expected just to visit here .

 

Well, thankfully 89gpse who owns this topic started it with an open-question, or we would be guilty of totally hammering his topic to death with 4 pages of these going-ons, though I will still say; sorry 90gpse if your topic went too far off or nasty on you !

 

Jeff M

 

[Addicted To Boost]

OH...MY....GOD IT's JEFF!!!!!! WOW long time no see!