PMIII swap

[White93z34]

alright, i was contemplateing how hard it would be to swap out my poor Theives IV master cyl and ABS system for a complete PMIII setup, aside of re routeing the brake lines in the rear, does anyone know how the wiring would work for such a system?

 

and overall how possable would it be to make it all work.

[Crazy K]

why would you do that?

 

I did the opposite to great chagrin! I suppose i could have used on non-abs mc but then i would have wasted the abs sensors (shrugs)

 

abs is great when it works right. If only it were reasonably possible to diagnose faults with it.

 

personnally I would add an enable/disable switch...

so i can look and say "ooh snow!"

[digitaloutsider]

Ah I was waiting for that. Someone to go "O WEL IT SUX Y WULD U WANT THAT?!"

 

Have you ever owned a car with a functioning PM3 system? It blows ANY other first-gen braking system out of the fucking water. I'm not how serious Chris is about the swap, but if I say, had a parts car with PM3, i would have no problem putting it in my car. It's saved my ass more times than I can count.

[Guest TurboSedan]

Ah I was waiting for that. Someone to go "O WEL IT SUX Y WULD U WANT THAT?!"

 

and i was waiting for someone to say that to the 1st person that replied to Chris

 

i have a feeling he's not actually serious at all. i think this thread was just to spite Ken

[White93z34]

sorta kinda, while i doubt that i'll ever be able to track all the parts down to do this, i DO want better brakes... i've almost been in WAY too many accidents with these brakes. and i've been looking around at other GM cars in hopes that there is a better master cyl out there. i don't think that doing the "ususal" brake upgrades are enough.

 

i mean my brakes work how they should, they just don't slow down a 3300lb car that well.

[Guest TurboSedan]

if you really want the wiring i can probably pull it out of my TSTE before it goes. i don't have the PMIII itself or the computer though.

 

i'm pretty sure the firewall plate would need to be swapped as well. i still have that too.

[Crazy K]

I have the abs computer. it's yours if you want.

 

however... Have you considered just upgradiung to heavy duty pads, in addition to the rear 94+ upgrade?

[GutlessSupreme]

I also have the computer laying around somewhere. I refuse to part with my spare MC's though I don't have any spare lines or the prop. valve either though, sorry. May have some wiring if Josh doesn't come up with it.

 

I have the abs computer. it's yours if you want.

 

however... Have you considered just upgradiung to heavy duty pads, in addition to the rear 94+ upgrade?

 

It's not the same. I'll agree to say my PM3 stopped a 100x better than my Cutlass. The other MC's just don't compare with gripping power.

 

And, I like the weird pedal feel

[94CutlassXtreme]

FUCK the PM3 and all the GM engineers who thought it would be cool to make that system, and I'd bet they're the ones responsible for OBD 1.5 too.

[White93z34]

any more intelligent replys?

[Crazy K]

I'd like to ask what makes you think your abs IV unit sucks? what does it do that bothers You?

 

My fleet 94 and 95 CS have awesome braking compared to my 93 down cars, even with the upgraded rears. baffles me to no end!

 

p.s. I slammed the brakes hard enough while drivng in Jersey to make them screech fierce in my 93 vert. I imagine near lock up, but not enough to activate the ABS.

 

does the abs bother you or even the non-abs acticity?

[White93z34]

i plain out DO NOT STOP how any mid size car does, every gen one i've drove feels the same way, panic stops make me panic!

 

the abs works fine, its the overall poor brakeing that sucks. and i know that PMIII has very good all around brakeing.

[digitaloutsider]

FUCK the PM3 and all the GM engineers who thought it would be cool to make that system, and I'd bet they're the ones responsible for OBD 1.5 too.

 

And when you own a car with this system, people might actually give a shit what your opinion of it is.

 

If you have owned it before, my apologies, I'm just sincerely SICK of people bashing engines, braking systems, transmissions, etc. that they've never owned and/or have had any experience with.

[Crazy K]

well I did own one at least, and ripped it out by it's routes after puzzling over it for a month.

 

Chris. i want you to upgrade your rear brakes before you consider going PMIII

 

trust me I felt a hugh difference!

 

If you remove the abs IV I want the parts.

 

p.s. I drove my 93 vert about 100 miles on the old rears and it felt exactly like you describe. i inspected the calipers and they were fully functional not bound or anything, and the pads were good. They were just weak as a kitten.

the upgrade makes the rear stick to the road. It felt like the rear raised up when i applied the brakes with the old calipers (wtf?) the struts are sensitracks, and yea they are good.

[White93z34]

IF i remove my ABS IV system parts are not for sale, i keep everything.

 

my present brake system works just as it should, i have a hard tim beliveing that JUST rear brakes will make that large a difference when the car feels like it stops as it should. i'm prety convinced that the master cylender is too small for the car. i'm just looking into alternative ways to get decent brakeing.

[Crazy K]

Edit: of the edit: I was really confused for a bit i saw chris post as digital outsider, and then delete and repost under the correct username. had to make fun of them for a momnet.

 

and back to serious talk.

 

please do not lock this thread

[White93z34]

Edit: out of respect for the love affair that one of our members may be having I removed my post.

 

waaaatt???

 

ok, i think this is safe to be locked now, it went downhill real fast. i know who i need to contact to get good information on this if i decide to do it.

[Crazy K]

my present brake system works just as it should, i have a hard tim beliveing that JUST rear brakes will make that large a difference when the car feels like it stops as it should. i'm prety convinced that the master cylender is too small for the car. i'm just looking into alternative ways to get decent brakeing.

 

it comes to mind that weak feeling brakes can be due top a few things. glazed pads and rotors, spongy brakelines, malfunctioning calipers. etc. etc.

 

I wonder if you could bore out the MC slightly to increase the volume it could push? and i wonder if GM may have done the same on later MCs!

 

Chris, when you return from CA, I recommend the brake upgrade, and inspecting all other stuff. At that time continue this thread. I never knocked it, I simply was perplexed and was asking why.

 

P.S. is your company still hiring? I'd be doing the same thing just about for someone possibily better. do they lay you off much?

[White93z34]

this topic is done, this thread has run its course, poorly at that.

 

bottom line is: i know my options, and i know who to contact on whatever route i do/don't go.

[GnatGoSplat]

1. No W-body has Teves ABS IV. The 92+ cars have a Delco ABS VI system.

2. The master cylinder is not the problem. It's the vacuum booster. The 94+ booster is much bigger.

3. PM III is not a smart way to go. Being non-integrated, the ABS VI system itself is far superior despite the weak booster. It hasn't won awards for its design for no reason.

4. Rear lines proportioning valve, firewall plate, those are all things you would have to swap.

 

You would also be surprised at what a difference pad material makes. Copper metallic pads from O'Reillys (COP376) stops a million times better than semi-metallic. Semi-metallic pads on the same car felt downright dangerous. I could actually lock the tires on my 89 with the copper metallic pads. Many may be saying, "yeah right", but the difference was HUGE. I don't use them anymore, but they were really grippy pads. Only drawbacks was they seemed to last only 10k miles and they kicked out a TON of dust. The front wheels would be almost completely black in a couple of weeks. I now use Wagner Severe Duty carbon metallic pads which are much better than semi-metallic, but don't have the gripping power those copper metallics did.

 

[Crazy K]

I didn;t even think of that. i have little to no idea of what the teves is. But I did see a caravan that had a PMIII type system installed, but know little about it could be a teves?

 

You are indeed correct Gnat, the 94+ does use a bigger brake booster, which will unfortunately not fit in place of the 93- one (due to at a minimumn the enigine size on the 3.1 models). which leads me to ask, might CHRIS find if possible to install a larger booster in a car with the 3.4 motor?

 

Myself, I have been using autozone duralast gold brake pads and feel they are decent but not neccesarily great. I also have recycled a few rear brake pad sets, as I got a good fresh "I got a brake job and totaled my car leaving Midas" fresh pads. But the autozone ones come with a warrenty so I replace them when they look worn enough but not completely shot.

 

I firmly stand behind the upgraded rear calipers as a major safety improvement... and again I implore you... having messed with many many used W body rear brakes, having looked at 30+ sets of rear 94+ ones, I have only encountered 5 bad rear 94+ ones, three of which malfunctioned due to servicing errors.(two of those being installed upside down!). I have only found two properly functioning 93- used ones ever. These were the set mounted on my 93 vert when i purchased it, and have no repalced with the upgraded 94+. Every other caliper I have ever seen(probably 40+ sets) was bad.

 

CHRIS, Don't let you being disappointed in the lack of positive response to the PMIII upgrade stop you utilizing this thread. At least, I know you would be the right one to do it if anyone.

[94CutlassXtreme]

FUCK the PM3 and all the GM engineers who thought it would be cool to make that system, and I'd bet they're the ones responsible for OBD 1.5 too.

 

And when you own a car with this system, people might actually give a shit what your opinion of it is.

 

If you have owned it before, my apologies, I'm just sincerely SICK of people bashing engines, braking systems, transmissions, etc. that they've never owned and/or have had any experience with.

 

Yea I had an 89 Cutlass Supreme Int. with that system. It was the reason why I lost 800 bux on my first car, so my rage is justified.

[GnatGoSplat]

You are indeed correct Gnat, the 94+ does use a bigger brake booster, which will unfortunately not fit in place of the 93- one (due to at a minimumn the enigine size on the 3.1 models). which leads me to ask, might CHRIS find if possible to install a larger booster in a car with the 3.4 motor?

 

I don't know that I agree with that, the 3100's had the bigger booster so I would think it could work on a 3.1 as well.

 

[Crazy K]

You are indeed correct Gnat, the 94+ does use a bigger brake booster, which will unfortunately not fit in place of the 93- one (due to at a minimumn the enigine size on the 3.1 models). which leads me to ask, might CHRIS find if possible to install a larger booster in a car with the 3.4 motor?

 

I don't know that I agree with that, the 3100's had the bigger booster so I would think it could work on a 3.1 as well.

 

gnat, I think you misread what said! You contradicted me and said what I said differently. The 3.1 do not have the space to accept the 3100 booster.

further more... I could go outside and measure, I think the booster may be offset more to the right in the 3100, to clearance for the left strut struture.

[GnatGoSplat]

gnat, I think you misread what said! You contradicted me and said what I said differently. The 3.1 do not have the space to accept the 3100 booster.

further more... I could go outside and measure, I think the booster may be offset more to the right in the 3100, to clearance for the left strut struture.

 

Oh, you mean physical space?

I don't see why not, the 3.1 is no larger than the 3100. I don't think it's offset any differently, there should be room on the firewall with the false firewall removed (if applicable).