Advise on turbo instalation.

[STE1991GrandPrix]

To start I have enough money saved up for this project so its finally time to get started. I realize the time and fabrication that this project is going to take and i'm willing to do it. I no longer have my 1991 STE but have a 1990 SE.

 

I'm looking at either the GT28RS or the GT3040R (GT3082R). Both are made by Garret and are ball bearing turbos. Here is the specs on the turbo(s). What turbo would perform better on a 3.1?

 

Ball Bearing GT28RS:

.60 A/R Exhaust.

.63 A/R Compressor.

.67T compressor wheel (capable of .59Lb/Min airflow)

Ceramic Ball Bearings.

Oil and Water Cooling.

Internal Wastegate 12-16 PSI.

 

Ball Bearing GT3040R (GT3082R):

.63 A/R Exhaust (84 trim).

.70 A/R Compressor (56 trim) (4 inch in. 2.5 inch out.).

Ceramic Ball Bearings.

Oil and Water Cooling.

External Wastegare required.

 

Fabrications.

 

Crossover pipe.

Take the stock crossover pipe and weld the existing exit shut. Measure multiple times on the angle and location I will need the turbo flange and cut the crossover pipe and weld a new flange on (depending on the turbo, a flange for a 50mm wastegate if the GT3040R is used). My plan is to bring the turbo flange out from the crossover pipe to about 5 inches to the passenger side of the stock air filter location and have the turbo sitting there.

 

Intercooler.

I'm not sure on the size of the intercooler I will be using yet but I know for sure i'm going to use one with the same side in/out for easier routing of the intake tubing.

 

Blowoff Valve.

Not sure of the exact blow off valve that will be used yet but most likely a Greddy sequential fire system.

 

Oil Lines.

I plan to pull the feed line from the oil pressure sensor location (usuing a T fitting) and just returning it to the oil pan.

 

Next for the upgrades to the engine.

 

Nitrous:

Not for inside of the engine. Intercooler spray mount bar (makes the intercooler more effective by reducing the temp with the nitrous without the nitrous ever entering the intake).

Camshaft:

Currently undecided.

Fuel: (Ungrading and replacing everything with alcohol in mind (E85) 105 octane to ruduce the chance of detonation)

MSD inline fuel pump 43 g.p.h. at 40 psi (282lb/hr).

Barry Grant braided stainless fuel lines to and from.

MSD 96Lb/Hr fuel injectors.

RCI circle track fuel tank (16 gallon) (Mounted in trunk where spare tire used to go).

Heads.

Combustion chamber balancing (I'm planning on removing 1.4 cc of combustions chamber space and then balancing.)

Flow match.

New valves, springs, retainers, 1.6:1 rocker arms.

Port and polish.

Pistons.

-1.3cc Forged 90mm. (not sure on manufacturer yet)

Gapless rings. (not sure on manufacturer yet)

Oil Pump.

High flow/pressure. (not sure on manufacturer yet)

 

Questions I have.

What Computer should I use for this setup, would a stock 1990 GTP computer work. Also what sensors will have to be changed to deal with running boost over vacuum?

What would be an ideal camshaft for a motor with the turbo running that much psi of boost. I understand that overlap is a big mistake due to the backpressure caused by the turbo, but what is the ideal lift, durations, and timing?

With taking 1.4 cc out of the combustion chamber, running -1.3 cc pistons, intercooling the intake charge, and running the E85 (105 octane). Would this be enough insurance if it were your motor to push a minimum of 12 psi to a maximum of 31 psi of boosted air into it or should I look for some bigger dished pistons to reduce compression even more (the pistons are most likely going to be custom ordered so the dished area can be changed to more -cc's if necessary)?

 

If there is anything I've forgotten or any advice please let me know,

STE1991GrandPrix (Actually now SE1990GrandPrix)

[slick]

Those injectors will be wayyyy too big.

 

An extra fuel tank isn't necessary, as the stock one with an upgraded fuel pump will suit you just fine. If anything, upgrade the fuel pump wiring to a heavier guage wire.

 

Oil pump, I believe everyone is using a Walboro.

 

You can use the TGP computer, wiring, map sensor, etc.... but obviously a custom tune for your vehicle would definately be required.

[z284pwr]

Those injectors will be wayyyy too big.

 

Ain't that the true my god!!! 96lb/hr!!!!!

 

Oh go with a GT28RS....

 

Oh and are you starting with a 3.1 or a 3x00?

[95oldsVan]

Maybe the 96 lbs was a typo..maybe he meant 36 lbs? I know the GN 3.8 turbo engines used 38 lbs per hour(if my brain isnt gone yet)

 

[pwmin]

get a T3/T4 and plumb in the nitrous to cool and to spool. lucas 42.5 lb injectors. at least get the T3. and, walbro fuel pump.

[STE1991GrandPrix]

Sorry about the 96lb/hr injector, it was a typo I'm going to use the 50 lb/hr injectors (explination bellow). Today after getting some sleep I went through and ran the calculations, I've come up with a manifold absolute pressure of 32.5413 lbs to achieve the horsepower i'm looking for.

 

As for the existing fuel tank. I hate in tank fuel pumps, and rather then spending the money to convert all the lines to alcohol compatable and then do that I might as well put a new one in during the process. I'm going with a circle track tank because of safety and if my alcohol is in the trunk with no filler neck then no one is able to steal it (I have a problem with this, even locking caps don't work they have sliced my filler neck tube 4 times to get my gas out so this is better for me). I'm also running braided aluminum fuel lines, inline fuel pump, and a Berry Grant fuel heat sink setup.

 

I'm not going to use the nitrous to spool the turbo and cool it (though I have thought of this). The GT4294R will have a intake gas temperature of almost 550*f before the intercooler, i dont want to take any chances of warping or damageing the turbo by doing this. As far as spool times I'll just live with them, if someone takes off on me when i'm not expecting it it will only take about 1.1 second to have the turbo spooled and at 20 psi so catching up and passing them shouldn't be a problem unless they are forced induction also.

 

As far as calculations;

2.16 Pressure Ratio.

32.5413 Manifold Absolute Pressure.

34.99 -to- 56.1 lb/min of Air.

 

This is making me wonder about my original ideas of the GT28RS and the GT3082R are both too small, the GT3082R would be slightly to small (crossed the choke line).

 

By looking at multiple compressor maps the GT4294R would be the best suited with room for improvement (also running a 79% efficiency) on both ends of the map by about 10 lb/min air to the left and 15 lb/min air to the right of the range, by choosing this turbo it would allow more psi of boost to be added if i'm not satisfied with how it turns out (the reason for the slightly oversized injectors). As it sits it will be at about 19-20 lbs of boost pressure to achieve 500 horsepower (this is the goal that I have set knowing that this rarely happens it will chalange me.

 

About the 500 horsepower mark that I set because I know it will be questioned. My father thinks that everything I do I fail at or it is never good enough for him, so with no one else (correct me if i'm wrong) having a 500 horsepower LG5 he will have absolutely no room to tell me it isn't good enough.

 

 

[slick]

Thats a pretty high number to shoot for.

 

As for the larger turbo (GT4294R), you may have some serious lag issues in the low end, unless your power breaking at the line to spool up the turbo a bit.

 

500 hp is feasible, no doubt. But, for a FWD car like these, you may break a lot of stuff on the way.

[digitaloutsider]

500 hp is feasible, no doubt. But, for a FWD car like these, you may break a lot of stuff on the way.

x73243743

[z284pwr]

500 hp is feasible, no doubt. But, for a FWD car like these, you may break a lot of stuff on the way.

x73243743

 

x 11ty billion!!!

 

What kind of transmission do you plan on using that will hold 500 HP? Oh and what miracle solution do you have for hooking it up....

 

[mfewtrail]

500hp = good luck. If I were you, I'd choose a RWD platform to put it in.

 

 

PS: You might want to look here for some ideas.

http://www.turboz24.com/

 

Curtis has a niceeeeeee 3.1 there. He dyno'd 310whp on 7psi and has ran up to 16psi, so his car should be capable of producing near or over 400whp(~475hp @ the crank).

[STE1991GrandPrix]

I know that there will be a serious lag issue at the lower rpms (bellow 2800) but i'm just planning on having the transmission settle this.

 

I'm having a 4T65HD built for the car. I'm looking at the goodies for this right now and by the looks of it i've found race clutches and bands, high torque axles, LSD differential, high torque chains, and a transmission brake. I'm also having a stall converter built with a 3000 rpm stall. I'm hoping that with the stall and the transmission brake I will be able to spool the turbo (If not have it in the spooling process) before the lights go green.

 

I'm looking at a 27 psi wastegate, even though 20 psi is all that is required for the 500 horse power mark (flywheel), I'm considering that there may be a loss of 2-3 psi of boost, also at 27 psi it should hit over 500 horse power at the tires.

 

And the miracle solution of hooking everything up :

I've decided that the GT28RS and the GT3040R would have been small enough to mount under the hood, the GT4294R is too large to fit under the hood (The GT4294R is about the size of a basketball). So i'm going to have to build new exhaust manifolds and a new crossover pipe (Everything will be mandral bent).

The manifolds will be a 3 to 1 design exiting in the center of the manifolds not the driverside like stock, the crossover pipe will come up over the intake manifold and meet it the rear center of the hood (6 inches to the front of the rear). The turbo will sit sideways with the exhaust turbine towards the rear of the car And the compressor at the front of the car.

The downpipe will have to be custom built to go down from the turbo running beside the crossover pipe to a cleared and recessed area of the firewall (for clearance) and will consist of 4 inch mandral bent exhaust piping down to the exhaust location, (The body will be cut and 2 recessed tunnels will run the length of the car) dual 2.5 inch pipes running the length of the car with a crossover pipe (X design) about where the seats are and then consisting of 2 exits at the rear of the car, As far as mufflers i'm not sure what design I will use because in my opinion a turbocharged V6 with flowmasters (or like muffler) would sound like shit, I'm thinking some kind of Greddy dual chamber mufflers.

The intake filter will come forward and pull air from the hoodscoop enterance only (A barrier made of alluminum will seal the air filter off from the turbo/engine temperatures, basically a true cowl induction system, a Harwood Tri-Aero Overall: 33.5''L x 11''H Base: 30''L x 14''W Part number 487-3183 will be used to house the turbo, downpipe, and air/filter) with the compressor outlet aimed straight down at the intake.

Plumbing for the intercooler will be the hard part Routed at a 90 degree turn above the intake but bellow the hood then routed to the passenger side front of the car to enter the intercooler. From the intercooler it will come up where the battery used to be (the battery will be trunk mounted) And to the throtle body.

The blow off valves will be located in the area where the battery used to be (there will be 2 due to the sequential fire system i'm going to install).

As far as the oil lines i'm not exactly sure as of right now where i'll pull the pressureized oil from, but i'll return the oil to the oil pan.

The coolant lines will be a little easier I'm going to pull the coolant directly from the water pump and the coolant returning from the turbo will be inserted at the water neck.

As far as the fuel lines they will run from the tank in the trunk to a fuel pump (trunk mounted also), then transported to the driverside of the car where the stock tank used to be and then run where the stock line used to about mid way up the car (about the driverseat location) the heat sink will be installed then run up to a fuel pressure regulator then to the fuel rails, the fuel return line will just be run to the driverside of the car and the parallel to the feed line.

 

 

[Guest TurboSedan]

you're crazy for starting with the 3.1 IMHO. i would seriously consider a 3400.

[mfewtrail]

you're crazy for starting with the 3.1 IMHO. i would seriously consider a 3400.

 

Ditto, or *at least* a 3400 top end swap. I would personally use 3X00 heads and weld up a custom intake manifold if I were shooting for those power levels.

 

A modified 4T65-E HD will still need to be "freshened up" every so often if you plan to seriously race the car(using slicks at the track) w/ that much power. Just something to think about...

[z284pwr]

One more question....

 

Why a Grand Prix?

 

Why not get a car that actually is working with physics like Curtis is considering doing now.....much smarter idea....why not get a V6 Camaro or something and put it in there

[RJansen658]

I say put it in whatever car you want man, you have obviously thought a lot about it. I think its a great idea, a 500hp FWD GP. Why not use a FWD car? All of our W's are FWD, this is the W body forum lol. We are all limited to what parts swappability GM has given us. I want to put an L67 into a 92 Lumina, people have told me its a waste of time. I don't care. If you want a 500hp FWD Turbo GP then make it. We all agree it CAN be done, do it.

 

One recommendation. If you are gonna spend all the money to do it... spend the money for good heads too.... the best you can buy. I do agree that the 3400 heads are much better stock with even better porting options. Put in the biggest valves you can, but heads are tricky.... find a true proffessional. Someone who puts as much time into cylinder heads as you put into planning your car.

 

Again... make the car you dream about, no matter what anybody says.

[digitaloutsider]

How do you plan on controlling the powertrain?

[STE1991GrandPrix]

turbosedan:

Thanks for the opinion but a little to late... i've already paid for the heads, so i'm stuck unless you want to buy them from me?

 

z284pwr:

Honestly, because of what you just asked... who will suspect it? My thought of a grand prix that has a body kit, buzzing mufflers, and a hood scoop for a funnycar would be.... just another ricer, mone money on the body, just a cold air intake and exhaust, then think about it... it would fucking fly, thats why. I have only been to the strip 4 times in my life but only 1 time driving. All of my racing is done on the streets for money... its all about what people will think about it and keeping what is under the hood an absolute secret (especially the one part of the motor this board will never find out the specification on... the camshaft (aka the heart of any motor)... good luck finding it on a web site, its a custom grind . I'm just deciding on the lift amount right now everything else is settled.)! I've learned this the hard way, had an elcamino ss at one point in time with a Steve Morris blow through carb small block...after people saw under the hood they wouldn't race me "its a professionaly built drag motor, I know I'll loose, that probably cost more then my car...", way to much power at 16 i'll admit that (over 1100 at the flywheel, who know what at the tires) and that is why I fucked the car up (its fun to show off, but you don't do it all the time like I did with the car) I ended up going through 3 rear ends, 11 transmissions, and when the motor went i sold the car.

But I have stuff to show for my racing... Cars, Guitars and Amplifiers, constantly about 2000 in my wallet, and a nice sized bank acount, Nice apartment, Just about every cop in town knowing my name, High insurance costs, and a long fucking police record... but its all worth it in the end, that is what life is about. Having fun and i've figured out the big secret of life, money is everything, with money you can buy partial happyness, after that find a woman that makes you happy and supports you.

 

RJansen658:

Thanks for the support! Like I think, I've planned and planned again and again and again on how to make it work... I've even gone as far as the making a blueprint to the exhaust manifolds, crossover pipe, and downpipe on a 3-D C.A.D. program. I've already got the heads back (stock 3.1 with every goodie possible ... I'm not joking either) so I can't really change them over to the 3400, like I want to... unless someone wants to buy them from me for the price they have cost me (if you really want to, they come in a pair and will be 8273.46 USD + shipping and insurance ).

 

Digitaloutsider:

How do I pan on controlling the powertrain? Um.... pure fucking luck basically. This is the only thing i'm still working to figure out. Any sugestions?

 

As far as an undate: The block is at the shop, the heads are back, and i'm almost finished with the specs on the cam. The turbo has been ordered, and i'm going to start assembly soon (when the block gets back... they gave me a date of when I should have it back... 32 days, the countdown has begun... but as far as everything else goes... is there a computer that will just controll the ignition, and the fuel injectors... that will fit in the car (even if I have to wire it myself)?

 

And just to clarrify I am a street racer, I will admit to it, but I will not admit to racing with the public on the street. I make sure they are closed and no innocent bystanders or drivers are around. Just remeber that before you lecture me please. I was caught once here is the list of some tickets I recieved that night: Wreckless Driving, Public Endangerment, Exibition of Speed, Exibition of Power, Speeding, Non-Steet legal tires, Not emmisions legal, Engine modifications, Transmission modifications, Lowered Suspension, Illegal lights, Illegal body modifications... ect that night I signed 116 pieces of paper (all together 18530 dollars of tickets) and lost my freedom for the night and part of the next morning. I had to see a judge for all of them one week later, Lost my freedom for 16 days, Lost 1000 hours to community service, I lost my license for a year, year of supervised probation, court issued curfew, raised my insurance prices (for just my grand prix my insurance is 290 a month and thats just liability), lost my car (permanent impoundment, but they made me sign the title in court so the fuckers could sell it). But in the end I still won, I still have most everything I gained for the races i've been in. And yes I did learn my lesson so here it is, drive safe with the innocent public around and everyone is caught a few times, but no matter what it was worth it.

 

Eric

[Guest TurboSedan]

how many thousands of dollars did you spend on the cam?

[STE1991GrandPrix]

Um.... not a penny, yet. But I'll let you knw when I order it.

[J]

did u make a typo with $8273.46 USD heads? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[mfewtrail]

did u make a typo with $8273.46 USD heads? :eek: :eek: :eek:

 

If it isn't, then you got jipped! If I had that kind of dough to throw around on heads, I'd source some from one of those Ryan Falconer 60* engines or any other racing 60* that was built years ago...

[88Regal Limited]

And just to clarrify I am a street racer, I will admit to it, but I will not admit to racing with the public on the street. I make sure they are closed and no innocent bystanders or drivers are around. Just remeber that before you lecture me please. I was caught once here is the list of some tickets I recieved that night: Wreckless Driving, Public Endangerment, Exibition of Speed, Exibition of Power, Speeding, Non-Steet legal tires, Not emmisions legal, Engine modifications, Transmission modifications, Lowered Suspension, Illegal lights, Illegal body modifications... ect that night I signed 116 pieces of paper (all together 18530 dollars of tickets) and lost my freedom for the night and part of the next morning. I had to see a judge for all of them one week later, Lost my freedom for 16 days, Lost 1000 hours to community service, I lost my license for a year, year of supervised probation, court issued curfew, raised my insurance prices (for just my grand prix my insurance is 290 a month and thats just liability), lost my car (permanent impoundment, but they made me sign the title in court so the fuckers could sell it). But in the end I still won, I still have most everything I gained for the races i've been in. And yes I did learn my lesson so here it is, drive safe with the innocent public around and everyone is caught a few times, but no matter what it was worth it.

there is a racing form for track aqnd street you know.

 

vand one ?, you will be snapping axles like toothpicks, how will you prevent this?

[FastSE2DR]

Why would you even consider running a GT42r when you only want 500 crank hp? That's WAY too big. I'd say go with a GT3076R. Good enough for 500whp and you will spool damn quickly. My buddy gets 25psi on his EVO before 4k, and you have a V6 to spool it. Don't over do something that doesn't need to be. Unless you have nitrous on the line, you will burn out your tranny trying to get that 42 to spool anyway. Ask the Supra guys about it. I may not be able to tell you something by compressor maps etc, but I've seen so many setups fail or work that I consider the real world knowledge a lot better. I've seen people go WAY too big and realize they were wrong and had to stick their tail between their legs and buy something else. I'm not saying you are one of these guys, but make sure you REALLY know what you are doing. A GT42 is not a childs play turbo at all. If you want something thats a T4 why not just get a T4/T61 or something. For comparison, the Supra motor is a 3.0L as well, and the T4/T67 is considered the "sweetspot" turbo because it is nice and linear and isn't violent like the T61 when it spools up. I have no idea how well 3.1s flow at all so I don't know how closely this can be compared, but just going by the size of the motor, you won't want anything bigger than a T67. T67's are good to about 700whp, while still spooling in the 3k's. Another turbo I would suggest looking into is the Borg Warner S200. It flows 55lbs/min and was good enough for 552whp@30psi on my buddies Integra GSR with full boost in the 4k's not tuned for spoolup on stock head. Spools just like a BB turbo(debateable whether or not BB actually helps) but it's about $600 cheaper. I didn't read through this entire thread, but I really hope you know what you are getting yourself into, and not just someone who knows "theory". Theory can only take you so far in life. A lot of people on here know I have done some stuff with a few of my cars in the past and can get a little cocky, but that's not what this is about, me knowing more than you. I just want to make sure you REALLY understand what you are doing. I think it seems odd that you picked a disco potato and a GT3040R. There's quite a big difference between those two and there are turbos in between that you should be looking at. And like I said before, I am by no means an expert, but working at a performance shop and being around high HP cars my whole life, I have seen more real life examples than most people.

 

Tony

[slick]

The 3.1's flow like hell. But, thats N/A. I dont' know the specs of his heads that he's having done, but it's probably no where close to what the 3.0 flows.