RedZMonte Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 Well I decided to say F**K it and just build one for my car. I don't know if its leaking and i have to rip the hole top end apart and reseal everything so i am going to fix my x-over. I found a flex that will work so i am building a fresh 1.75" mandrel bent X-over and jetcoating it.. What gains do you think i should see out of it? here are my thoughts. * Faster Spoolup (mandrel bent should help increase flow) * More top end power (again better flow means more flow) * Jet coating should keep gasses hotter and underhood temps lower RedZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J. Posted April 23, 2003 Report Share Posted April 23, 2003 Your best benefit will probably come from the simple fact that it will no longer be leaking off pressure. There is a flat spot in the power band at about 4000 rpms, which I believe Jeff M. attributes to a leaking crossover. Mandrel bends will probably be negligable since some restriction can actually increase velocities. Since the stock crossover is covered in a heat shield, the Jet coating will probably about equal the heat shield. All in all if you can do it yourself, great. You should pull some solid power without a leaking Xover. This is all IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Mike is actually right-on in more ways then than he is given credit for. Shane, the amount of length the stock pipe has with a few angled bends and size of the stock exhaust manifold all play into the flow characteristics, enough that a mandrel bend though better might not yield as much of an improvement as we would like for now. Backing up some, it is really the entire flow in and out of the engine that has to be looked at, and first off with the stock heads flowing so poorly on the exhaust side, exhaust upgrades elsewhere are not going to show any real gains yet until at least that is improved upon (besides the stock T25 will spool up to pure tire smoking power in less than 1 second, it does not lag like other turbo engines most people gain their understandings on). Take an example like this, if you upgraded the heads, intakes, TB, turbo, exhaust system but left in the stock air filter, no gains as there is still one item in there effecting your improvements. Turn this around in any way such as leaving in the heads being stock/restrictive, or the small A/R of the turbine housing, or anything that is part of the total flow that affects it and any of those will negate the benefits made in other areas. To do it right means to take a look at the entire flow system from air in to air out, that includes the air filter, air inlet pipes, TB, upper and lower intakes, heads, cam, exhaust headers, crossover pipe, turbo, downpipe and exhaust pipe/cat and mufflers. Flow and test each to find those most effecting/restrictive to maximum air flow and go from there. Many TGP owners over the last 13 years have tried exhaust upgrades, only to find minimal improvements, my tests showed less torque and a tiny gain in higher rpm hp from major exhaust upgrades only (no other engine/turbo mods done). Your work sounds great, it is well focused for sure on those looking to run a bigger turbo but would also need better heads and other air flow improvements to the entire system for max gains, they sound good so keep at it, you have the time and resources to get a few more guys taken care of that want T3 or T4 packages, we need more American FWD solders to compete (friendly) with the Asian crowd :-). As for the chip someone has mentioned here, I think a lot of the great guys we have on here would be disappointed to see it being purposely partnered with and released after someone/original programmer has put much effort into it over the years. Don’t do yourself a injustice to all your great efforts to date on the stuff you are doing by getting associated with this gray-market chip, just my suggestion and I am entitled to that. I think of it this way, we are all here to help each other, and if you were to spend a great deal of time and money on these upgraded exhaust components researching and testing the proto-type and production products, only to have someone get one of yours, copy it at a local shop using lesser quality parts and assembly, then offer it for less and say its better, well I think you know what I mean. An example of the greater side of the forums here and elsewhere regarding helping others and treating everyone with respect, that I believe the Owners/Moderators and Forum Members are here to support can be best be explained with a recent topic I was involved in; in a reply to a questions I received from a member on the other TGP forum regarding chips by Fastforwardperformance, and if I would be able to make chips like those too for Normally Aspirated 3.1L. My reply was that this guy has already invested a lot of support to those wanting to talk chips for those NA cars, the gains they would get, other mods that would work with it, fixes needed to the engine and such to get the full gains from his chips, and in him testing these chips and offering them for sale. My reply on that board, and would be the same in a PM or email was that I respect that it is his hard earned chip tuning area and I will not go there in making chips for other/non-TGP engines! We are just small DIY guys trying to help others, get some pay for our efforts if possible, we are not big companies that make millions and compete ruthlessly for the cash out there. These forums are also the same, we all freely devote our valuable time in helping others get fixed and faster and such, and maybe I am the only one that wants to see it continue this way. But as always, good luck on your end, more power to you and all of us! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZMonte Posted April 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Jeff M: X-over: My mandrel one is going to be the same ID piping as the stock. Any increse in flow will allways show imporvements especially on trubocharged cars. If anything it will gain top end power, where mine stick falls on its face. If i get to the point where i upgrade everything but the heads then i do also have a hookup on porting. I am going to check on porting the stock manfiolds and jetcoating them. in conjunction w/ the mandrel X-over and a 2.5" downpipe/catback that will have sufficent flow for most my needs. If i get to the point where the motor needs a rebuild then the headwork is going to be done and possibly honed/ported inake manifolds. I have had Allot of eperience w/ turbo imports and N/A domestics. so this again is a learning experience for me. but anytime you can increase flow (especiallon a turbo car) you will make noticeable gains. Also the X-over comes out nice i am going to be making malibuolds a T3 setup wich will definatly need some extra flow. Chip: I am in now way trying to make my own chip to distribute. I am basicly to the point where everthing i make for my car bores me, I want to start understanding how the code works. I am comparing a modified chip and a stock to see what changes are made and the results from thoes changes. Possibly try to get a chip for Fuel/timing mangement on my monte so i can ditch my FMU. I would not feel right sending out any chip that would effect your business. LETALONE a chip made by me who knows Jack about chip tuning that could cause damage to a persons car. I am looking for something to occupy my time. And if i blow my car up in the process, its my own dumb ass fault. I have no interest in providing a chip for anyone due to the sole fact i have no experience tuning them. I might be doing a 5spd conversion anyhow.. There where some metal shavings in the tranny pan and it shifts much different then both my other cars. so it might be on its way out. hope this clarifies things. RedZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Shane, thanks for reply and your shared respect, I think we already shared some in the PMs we have had too, also makes for an enjoyable time on this message board (check your PM, I need something from you :-). ) On your engine and such, sounds nice and well laid out the approach to your engine mods, I must insist that your great efforts on the pipe or exhaust will still not give you their all until the rest gets uncorked, sounds like you got that covered too though. As for porting the intakes, my research and studies have shown 2 sides to the coin on this engine and its torque-rich long intake runners. First is to allow the stock small high velocity long runners make the low end torque small engines are not known for, then let the turbo/larger turbo blow to get you your higher rpm horse power, it’s a great combo for a long fat power curve. If you port the intake runners too much, air velocity will slow at low rpms, turbo might help but the stock cam will limit you there, it is set to take advantage of the long runners and the torque they make, a custom cam change out would be necessary to make use of the intake manifold port work, something along the lines of the 3100 but not quite that far as their runners are quite a bit shorter (the change from long to short was only to allow GM to brag the hp numbers of their newer 3100 since most people believe hp is what makes a car go fast instead of it really being the torque, hp is torque over time and without torque, there is no hp). On the chip, thanks for the honest reply, and for mutual respect, to that I have had many people email me for a crossover pipe for their turbo project, but since I cannot part with my pipes without a core return, have had to turn them away, but now that you are going to take care of that area, will have to look through my emails for those and send them your way, after you are ready! TGP chip tuning support just got dropped, too bad because it’s the service after the sale that makes all the difference with money well spent, and the software that was out there caused too many people problems/buggy, that pissed the programmer off enough that I believe is why he dropped it. You sound right-on about accepting a learning curve, chip tuning can be learned and you sound like you have had enough background to approach it safely and properly, making a change is easy, what it does and if it’s good is another matter all together. In tuning this TGP for several years now, I have found what other tuners have said to be true of their V8 or SyTy chips, that even if the table says it does something does not mean it does, or works the way is should, then there are errors that take some serious knowledge to correct, these errors may not show up as much with a stock engine but change that engine or the injectors and oh-boy, and having someone who has never tuned a TGP tell you how to do it is flat scary. I have seen revealed now with the 29 lb injectors I have that the chip is tuned in such a way to really throw the intentions of the tables out the window, after some time their approach can be understood, but tuning now becomes much more than just a little adjusting of the Injector Constants, Injector Linearization tables, Base Pulse Constant, Boost fuel Mult, PE, AE, DE etc but much more, enough to make the tables look crazy, but if you understand what GM did in the first place, it all falls into place, but it’s a long learning curve. Thing to is each of those fueling areas have to be fixed in their own realm or without that, changes to fix the other fueling tables will be unsuccessful. Since the SyTy chip has much better tuning support, and a host of busy tuner gurus working on it for the last 8 years or more, and it is a chip that is much more straight forward to work with, many have just swapped over to it and done quite well, guys with all types of turbo V6s to supercharged/turbocharged V8s, even the 3 bar map versions has been honed to be very effective in that sense. The SyTy chip has a few areas the TGP does not, making some tuning areas easier, though the TGP chip is more extensive and affords the chip tuner greater power and flexibility in tuning, it just takes a lot longer for those end results. Well, continued luck with your projects!! Don’t forget to check your PM :-). Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted April 24, 2003 Report Share Posted April 24, 2003 Wow Jeff you are sure welcoming possible competition with open arms!! I guess it is true....keep your friends close and your enemies (competition) even closer!!! It is funny that you were so closed to secrecy when another TGP enthusiast approached you with questions and ideas to better the performance of his TGP...but when the chips fell you were no-where to be found unless a check book was open... :shock: I am going to try and do my own, way better than yours, urrr urrr (Tim Allen sounds)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Not sure I know or care what that was. So anyways, someone mentioned Tim Allen, that reminds me of when I was still living in Michigan. I had gotten my second 93 Typhoon and was looking to….you know, stoke up the fire some since all-wheel-drive takes all you can throw at it. Well after 3 months of research I had my groundwork to understand things proper, and to ask the final/most fun questions. But instead of me tackling the work I ended up looking to have this guy do the engine work, a fellow named Jim Stokes, his knowledge was so amazing I skipped taking on much more of a learning curve and just had him do me up. We did a Chevy 4-bolt racing block, a set of heads that were only one of 4 made in the world, huge T-69 turbo, 55 lb injectors, air-to-air intercooler, custom cam, JE coated forged pistons, Oliver Forged Rods, Billet Steel Crank, total coating project from High Performance Coatings, tons of stuff that this guy knew like we take to walking. While I was helping him we had debates on engine design and theory, tuning you name it and I was lucky to win a few of those debates, but it was all for fun, learning can be fun :-). After we got it all done (way more space than I want to take up with all the final details and parts and mods) we dyno’d it and got 655 hp, but more so like the 60 Degree V6, torque on this 4.8L 90 Degree was to the tune of 759 lb ft at only 3,200 rpms, right where my converter stall was (Jim knew that, smart ass :-), what a stump puller, wow. Now I am not so into my possessions or myself that my truck is better than anyone’s so, will be more than happy to tell you this is the smallest engine Jim does, he has done 700, 900 and a 1,350 with 1,795 lb ft in a 4-wheel drive Syclone, what a real monster. Upon first starting that monster motor that had $35K into it there were some explosions, freaking everyone out who was their to witness this thing come to life, come to find out the exhaust pulses were so strong they blew out 3 of his fluorescent light bulbs, raining down on us making us all happy it was just the bulbs exploding. The 900 hp Syclone was clocked on the Autobahn at 223 mph by a Twin-Turbo AMG Hammer with a certified speedo, Jim was flown over to find out why the brakes where activating the ABS at these speeds, so took the opportunity to split some wind, and while the Hammer was along side hit the brakes, well the Baer Brake upgrade was so good it was nose diving enough to lift the back end of the truck off the road, which allowed the rears to lock causing the ABS to kick in, this is freaking cool shit. But back to Tim Allen, while Jim was doing his magic to the power side of my truck, I was showing him how to fix, redesign and upgrade the rest of the truck, these Typhoons have some really bad gremlins and things like a horrid personality on the road trying to steering and brake. Jim like my attention to detail and the end results, so when he was approached by World Of Wheels do to some performance mods to Tim Allen’s 92 Typhoon for an Xmas present, he also enlisted me to fix the rest of the pains with these trucks, that was the nicest complement for him to share such an opportunity, specially since I already showed him how to do all this for his other customers. So we got Tim’s Typhoon, did a bigger turbo, custom chip that was kept secret so no one grabbed fame for it being on Tim’s truck, but the SyTy chip gurus that did the work with me were more than satisfied I wanted them to be involved and that they had their chip on Tim’s truck (and one programmer got a ride too). I did all my stuff to it and Jim and I got her running perfect with the rest of the mods, Baer Brakes, custom one-off billet aluminum rims, and then, yep we got to deliver it, and explain all the work to Tim Allen. He is even more fun than he looks on the telley, pure fun to be around, a smart man with a great sense of humor. We got to check out his warehouse with the 40+ cars he owns, could of spent a few days there, that was a total rush. Not to leave Jim out, a little on Jim Stokes is his background was originally with his father building NASCAR race engines (that is how I wanted to grow up, silver metric wrench in my mouth ;-), then went to work for GM specialty group doing show cars and show-off cars, unlimited budget and resources to make anything, do anything. After that he was taken in as a chief engineer at PAS/TRIAD, the PAS side did the Turbo Trans Am, and of course the Syclone and Typhoon (and beat out a bidder offering the great 3.8 Grand National Motor as the Syclone’s setup). PAS passed on soon after the Typhoon, can’t talk about it but World of Wheels/WOW bought it. WOW does some stuff that I can only dream of (but get to do a very small amount once in a while) is super custom rides modifying everything and anything for high-profile customers, Senators, Lawyers, Movie Celebs, Rock Stars, you name it. TRIAD still exists and is a major software system supplier for auto parts inventories, billing management etc, boring stuff for GM and other dealers. I miss living in Michigan, but when I take my Typhoon back to Jim later this year will also be taking some contacts at McLaren up on letting me see their folder on the TGP, they promised but I first want to get something done to my web site, never have time for it, and get my 350 hp TGP some time slips before I go visit our creators, then taking a few of the posters I have to be signed by Wiley McCoy who was president at McLaren during the TGP and TSTE’s inception (Mr. McCoy drove a white TSTE for 4 years and really liked it, they had to keep it there in case there were any driveability or emission tuning problems as the TGP was not listed as a Pontiac, it does say ASC on the cars stickers). So thanks for reminding me of Tim, Michigan has some great people there, quite a few TGP owners have talked with me over the years from MI, but that’s enough for now, thanks for listening. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBuick Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Great story and info Jeff, I enjoyed reading that. -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalor Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 http://www.syclone.freeserve.co.uk/jeffmiddaugh.htm That's one BADASS Typhoon!!! ______ |___|__\___ |_/-\__/-\__| _ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 Glad you liked reading it, as I get older I am getting like the old folks I used to enjoy hang around with, hearing them tell some of their greater moments in life. As for that link on my truck, I did not even know about it, nice of someone to do that without being asked, going to have to thank those guys. I just took a look and see it was linked to my 10.89 quarter mile time, that 7 people have bested, cool, and there are some bad looking trucks at that web site too. I knew a lot of the original founders of that site and a few of the other ones that first came out, you talk about a passion, never have I witnessed such as with these guys, a real close virtual family too. Thanks again for listening, and for the link. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBuick Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 you talk about a passion, never have I witnessed such as with these guys, a real close virtual family too. I'm getting involved with the LS1 guys since buying my Firehawk and let me tell you, these guys are INSANE!!!!!! Similar, I think, to these Typhoon guys. Passionate, close knit, and extremely knowledgeable. Two weekends we installed a Head/Cam package in 12 hours (with the help of a NASCAR engine builder from the area who has a 1000+HP Grand National). I never thought the Firehawk would seem wimpy but after seeing some of this stuff in person it really humbles you. Seeing it on the net and reading about it is one thing, but in person you just sit in awe (at least I do). The feeling of the ground rumbling under your feet from these tuned LS1s is nothing short of amazing. -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 That’s sweeeeet, I know what you mean, big power pounding your blood hard enough to boil it, what a drug!! You got a Firehawk eh, nice!! Those are very special built cars, their option list was the last REAL option list GM offered on any of their cars, roll cage, carpet and radio and AC delete if I recall correctly (some of that might have been the 1LE stuff, been a while), aluminum driveshaft and more REAL go fast and drive fast around the road course goodies. Those rims on the Firehawk were from ROH of Australia, loved them enough to get the same for my Typhoon, funny uh? Some words I heard about those rims were GM had intended to put the same ROH 5 spokes on the RWD Impala SS, but when GM did their typical egotistical arrogant approach of “sell them to us for cheaper, even if you don’t make any money, we are GM and you should beg to serve usâ€Â. So ROH told them to blow themselves, and GM had to make one on their own, in the same typical style of a rental car level of wow. So that Firehawk was when things were good everywhere, GM High-Tech Performance Mag did a lot of great articles on that car, the Hawk was kind of like a Callaway C8 that you could afford. Unless you got them, I would check on eBay for back issues, wait maybe GMHTP still has some, I can check my selection, I have everyone they put out, and see where your Hawk was featured. Well, we better quit walking on Shane's topic here regarding crossovers, finish up your reply if needed and I will end here. Well, power on. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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