Garrett Powered Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 165 amps of "clean power" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 That's the spirit, "play with it" don't let a "used car" get you down, every car on the planet has some issues, no escaping it, and I know of plenty that blow our little issue away so, do keep your positive rolling, that will help keep you rolling . Lots of great fun things to think of doing but for sure a used car will need some attention to serve you well FIRST. Also never assume, I would get new plugs and plug wires right off, PCV valve, Crank Sensor, others, do these and you will me amongst the many here who know how to avoid issues that will happen later and keep you ahead of the curve, or you will hear us say we told you so later . My chips all come with a 9 page packet that has been called the FixAll of common issues and maintenance items, though there are still other things, it’s the best start at knowing of these and most of all, being able to understand them and that is your most powerful tool when troubleshooting. Yea crossover pipe and o2 and turbo oil drain line, put them on the list. Service Manual, there is a 1990 Grand Prix 700+ page on for sale right now for a lousy $10. 150k is par, we have had a few with 180k and more as well as one who did 260k plus on original engine, tranny and turbo . It is known that a 4T60 tranny does NOT LIKE high speed runs, back a few years ago there were a few owners that ignored that alert who later came here with the dreaded locked-up dead tranny post , so try to avoid it for any length of time, maintaining over 80mph on hot days and for sure 100+ runs are very risky, drag runs to the 90+ is a short stint and not such an issue, but its time spent at speed that causes issues. The stock turbo is a little small, but GM wanted no lag, and once a good chip is installed there is no lag, and brief stop light races are ours quite often, but we do miss a little at the top end, that is why most know to let the tranny shift and to not hate their motors by revving past the normal tranny shift points and out of our motor/turbo’s power band, there are Syclone and Typhoon owners that run 12 and 11s with some that don’t rev past 4,000 rpms, they got a torque motor similar to us, let the gears to the walking and the motor do the talking though once you get chip’d/filter the turbo sound will be slapping a smile on your face . There is a lot to know and learn and enjoy about this car, and like any car that is a rare one, worth the time, so take some time to look back over the past posts here, and on Kenny’s Web site, and also check out the links off my web site to owners web sites, lots of good info there as well!! If there are some new web sites owners have I am missing let me know, if you want a link. Well, timer is getting short, only a few hours to get everything ready to be on our trip away. Be nice to your car, until you know more about it, hate to hear something came off or blew before you nosed around and found it out first!! .......hey duffus (Garrett Powered), no posting pics of awesome parts (alternator) without some info/part number/maker that should be a new rule nice piece Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPnewb Posted May 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 ok cool im loving this. i would love to know how much that alternator ran u>>> i want one need it cuse im getting ready to put another 2 channel amp for my alpine 6x9s in the rear and my two 12s arnt getting the power they need aswell. just a quicky so is the 180 worth getting? how much better is the 160 in the power area. i already seem to have a jeff m x-over pipe so im happy there. just want to get some good traction. gonna eventualy get some BF Goodwrench gfore T/As on my car maybe some wheels to donno yet if i like the gold ones oh and i want a 450hp TGP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPnewb Posted May 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 so what would be the next thing to get after a chip eh? besides an alternator how much hp and tourqe does the everage chip give to u on average has anyone figured it out yet? also what are yalls 0-60 times now I love speed hate the cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Replace ALL sensors Cross-over Fuel injectors Chip Bigger turbo FMIC better heads and intake cam etc etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 yea, kenny but first things first before you replace any of that....straps... ground straps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 the new alt will do you no good if you got corroded green ground cables like the stock one pictured above. I will build you a set of cables if you want. I will be pricing out the supplies needed soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPnewb Posted May 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 well i do need to replace my O2 sensors bah i think i can get ground wires pritty easy lol but i want to know how much that alt cost u... and the bigger turbo... well what do u have? how much lol ouch bad question lol should i get bigger fuel injectors? as for the rest im sure ill figure it out around when i have the money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPnewb Posted May 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 lol well sounds like i need to go find an oil field so i can buy all this stuff Lmao what injectors are u using??? so invasion1 im guessing ur chip is tuned for them injectors huh i aslo took a look at the t vavle and it looks fine i cheked and it works just fine so it must be something to do with the tranny well another thing to add to my list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 well if you want to get the best bang for the buck, I would first drop the tranny pan. save the rubber gasket and reuse it, and drop in a new filter; then go get it flushed with a snap-on tranny flusher and that specific one because it runs the car's tranny pump to syphon the fluid and it pulls in the fresh until it changes 99 percent of the fluid. thats the only machine I will use now. Oh, and I wanna hear how good it downshifts when you get that new hydraulic motor mount . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 yep, evry turbo car I have seen has vents in the hood too so heat can escape. YOU however are an exception with your high tech wraps that send all the heat down through the exhaust. different schools of thought I guess. well, only time will tell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPnewb Posted May 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 this car = $$$$ how much for the motor mount? now im runing out of questions and how much for that alternator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossman429 Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 this car = $$$$ how much for the motor mount? now im runing out of questions and how much for that alternator You don't have to buy everything at once! It's a steady process. You are probably going to get the most bang for your buck with a chip, though. That is definitely the first thing I would buy for a TGP if I had one. My TSTE had a TG160 in it when I bought it (lucked out big time!!!!) so I can't even imagine how a stock TGP runs without one. I bet ya it's not nearly as fun though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick5638 Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 How do you know that TGP doesn't have a Jeff M. chip in it already? What TGP owner wouldn't spend the extra money and get a chip when doing the crossover? I guess some might not but I couldn't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 I gave PM Alternater $400 to custom build and hop up a CS-130-D 160 amp "super bee", 1 PMGR GM starter overhaul, and some fusible link wires. alt- $295 starter- $125 fusible links- $10 discount- $30 you could do it way cheaper, my car is spoiled. I already got another starter almost as nice by trading a pizza at the J/Y. The alt you could get used and have a shop hop it up with a bigger stator and whatever else they do. probably like $200-$250 if you get lucky. they might have to re clock the chassis and grind it down on the pivot mount. motor mount; thats a dealer item, maybe $60 thats my guess. I have a condition...CRS cant remember shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPnewb Posted May 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 How do you know that TGP doesn't have a Jeff M. chip in it already? What TGP owner wouldn't spend the extra money and get a chip when doing the crossover? I guess some might not but I couldn't see it. thta is a good point... what does a TGP feel like without a chip and with a chip. i actually might have a chip allready but she still is slow to me.. maybee its from riding in my dads ls1 Z/28 for to long i might just be looking for something to throw me back in my seat when it this car cant? lol i think that i still am gonna invest in invasion1's chip just to be on the safe side oh and here is some downers my brakes feel hard to push just wonderin if that was typical im gonna look at my master cylindar this weekend an im gonna replace my brake pads aswell. oh and my air stoped comming out of my vents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 oh and my air stoped comming out of my vents Simple vacuum leak. Look at the hard lines coming out of the firewall passing the turbo. Most likely you dropped a line on the turbo. If not trace it down to the vacuum accumulator all under the drivers side fender between the front tire and the front bumper. Make sure the line is intact and not cracked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 16, 2006 Report Share Posted May 16, 2006 only thats the least likely place for it to leak. it will most likely be leaking out of all the other fittings and tees and elbows. 16 years old and any time driving with no blanket on the turbo will shrink all the lines and crack all the rubber. but only in the hot engine bay, not down by the canister, thats the only spot on my car the lines were all soft and pliable. oil and grease will destroy rubber especially if any amount of heat is applied. vacu-tite brand connectors are BETTER than stock, and the Jeff M chip is all you need until you trace down all the leaks. I took like 3-4 years before getting all that straight, and I know if you try to build a custom chip for a car that has any leaks in the lines aint gonna be shit, and total waist of time. everything on this car is vacuum controlled so it can be a nightmare if your a newb. take it slow for best results and drivability. you will find that leaks in different areas mean certain components (cruise control, vents, boost) dont work right. takes time to trace it, but it will never work right for long unless its perfect. mine was fuel cutting (big jolts at WOT) all the way up until I got the tinyest leaks taken care of. Jeffs chip is great to have if you are interested in actually restoring the drivability of the car. THEN you want to go with a fine tune chip for your car if its not enough to get into the 13s. Trust me, I was totally impressed with the way I sunk back into the seat after FINALLY getting all the kinks worked out, and now it only gets better for me when I have a reliable platform to bolt on power adders with peace of mind. anyone can geek around with chips and crap, Its a whole nother game restoring a TGP in that condition (yours is in perfect condition to be restored!!!!). I can tell you where I think the ponies are locked up if you keep asking lots of questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 Oh ho, and spend a life time answering all of them questions, only to reset and start all over when the next newb comes . Just a little fine tune of your very valid points, fine tuning won’t get 13s, might get close with the faster stock TGPs but not with stock turbo/engine. To add right there with you on those points , I am going to be so bold as to say no one can fine tune a car they are not driving i.e. having someone else keep sending you chips to try and try and try. If you take 2 identical LG5s with the same perfect maintenance over the years (HA!) but for sake of discussion lets say its so, and all known good sensors and grounds and alternator/battery in top condition, same brand injectors and turbo and exhaust and air filter and many other factors, there will not be a fine tuned chip from one that will give the same results for the other! Giving some other examples here when someone is further tuning up a chip; the chip has Injector Linearity Tables, and for a very good reason, injectors are not linear, 70% Duty Cycle is not 70% of rated output, same for every Duty Cycle percentage ran, it’s off from what is though to be an accurate (now assumed) commanded value. Same for voltage supply influence, an injector told to be at 70% Duty Cycle with a 12.2 volt source is not the same as when the battery is at 13.1, or anywhere your alternator and/or battery are running things at from 11.5 on shitty parts to a 14.4 full fill (or there-a-bouts) on good parts. So in our chips there are tables to help the ECM process a more accurate fuel command while having these other variables (injector non-linearities). Now the important part (that was not it ), the values in those tables are derived from actual testing that is not something RC Engineering or pretty much most companies are capable of providing for an injector, and all injectors have different characteristics/non-linearities so there’s no cheating or very good guesses. Our stock 22lb Multecs will not have the same characteristics as a 22lb from Accell or Bosch or whoever, and the differences could be small to significant depending on the voltage level and commanded duty cycle, which changes all the time as an engine runs and it is hard to record all those many areas to verify the level of influence. This is info I have read in a few books and articles but also something I have run into it like a brick wall when I was testing 29lb injectors. First all was well when I entered in the injector linearity values for the 29lb injectors I had, and they were quite different than the values for the stock 22lbs. But when I swapped to a different 29lb injector, the brick wall appears, these 29lb injectors ran like shit everywhere, did not like starting, too rich cold too lean warm, and that’s just the cranking fuel part, when the air was cold the car would ramp up boost like we all know our cars can do (though this is a T3 60mm compressor) but literally dragged its ass forever when the air was hotter in the summer months. Now there are some that have been able to get away with injectors other than the stock Multecs and thank god the chip was not fine tuned beforehand as the slight leeway a safe chip is setup with can help out and maybe save your ass, by allowing such changes or variations, but no guarantees how far that will go, there are limits to any amount of luck one can have. Oh yea, and lets not forget the fuel pump, if a chip is tuned on a car with 70k miles on the fuel pump and that chip goes into a car with 130k miles or more the results will be a car I would not want to test even with all the right gear, it won’t be right period. Even if the fuel pump was new/recently replaced on the 130k mile car, it would again no longer be “fine tuned†since it would be on the extra rich side as compared to the chip tuned on a 70k mile engine. I had an example of this with the first 29 lb injectors installed in my TGP, that had a fuel pump with 60k miles, where I copied the same setup (chip for sure) into another TGP that had 130k miles on the fuel pump, oh wow, that 130k mile TGP ran like an LS1 V8 at higher rpms, and as we checked the readings found our A/F Ratio was way into the lean area, an area that would not allow for any “chancesâ€Â. So only 50k miles difference between fuel pumps and a world of difference in the resulting A/R Ratio. So what are those “chancesâ€Â, those risks, those differences that exist with all engines other than the condition of a simple fuel pump/filter, injectors characteristics??...the list is long, here are a few; During a test run in Detroit, 75% of the gas stations tested failed the octane stated on their pumps! So do you ever know when you are getting the same high octane?? One engine can have a small amount of combustion chamber deposits while another can have a larger amount, and having a lot of deposits will increase your octane requirement to stay away from knock (read on ORI literature, there is tons of good info there!). So a chip that was good for the first engine, is not so good for the last, and there is no way to reasonably measure the amount of build-up, and fudge a value in the fuel tables to compensate. If you have a new engine or one that has run mainly on a quality gas and has had good maintenance practices then deposits will be minimal (I inspect mine with a boroscope from time to time). If you have a healthy engine with some miles on it that passes some oil (rings and/or valve seals) and has often ran a cheap brand of gas then you have a good chance of considerable deposits. ALSO, excess oil (not necessarily a smoking engine) blowing by the rings and/or leaking in from a valve seal will bring on detonation and there is no amount of fuel or timing adjustments that can make up for that, this is one of those finds I read from many trusted sources. And…….yea its goes on and on, cheap oil, and any oil that is getting too old has a better chance of getting by the rings. Condition/accuracy of the sensors. Even new sensors are not all perfect nor are they all matched the same or even testing to tight tolerances. I have seen a number of MAP sensors have varying readings, the first new one I put into my TSTE (by memory) shown mid 30kPa’s at idle and sure enough, with that high of a (false) load reading I was getting a rich command of fuel for what it thought it needed. I swapped in another new GM Map Sensor and got the mid-high 20 kPa’s I was use to seeing, and it idled like it should. We just had a TPS funk-up with dbtk so I got these 2 easy ones here to show examples but sensors are not all the same and a chip tuned with one set of sensors might not reflect as well in another engine’s set of sensors. Ignition side; taking ohm readings as some have on the plug wires, you can find a huge difference there, GM always blows away the majority out there other than the better aftermarket such as MSD and Magnacores, but all the supposed “Premium†and “Performance†ones on the shelves of local shops never compare as well as GM stock, often times coming apart when handled the next time and having very high resistances/ohm reading out of the box (resistance increases the more you handle a spark plug wire too). So higher ohm plug wires will resist the energy that the spark plug needs to ignite the proposed finely tuned fueling. Something too that not many people try is to ohm out the spark plugs, and surprise is no 2 spark plugs are the same even 2 stock R42LTS let alone 2 of the same of the many other brands out there, so there is another factor that will effect how well the fine tuned fuel is burned. I have already said a lot about different injectors but even if starting with new ones, over time the quality of the spray pattern can change and the quantity as the injector gums up mainly after heat soak shut down. Both of these will effect the quality of the combustion burn, so fueling and timing will change to match the age and condition of the injectors. Turbo wheel condition. I have pieces of 8 TGP turbos here, as well have seen a few dozen when worked on for a pipe install or whatever, and from those opportunities I have seen compressor wheels and turbine wheels that have lost some mass. Its bad enough the critical balance is gone and the turbo does not spool as it should, but that loss I saw was small to medium sections of the wheel’s blades missing, hard to get full potential output, or compare a good turbo and its finely tuned chip to one that is missing pieces of its wheel’s blades! So, looks like a lot of info but its not, there is more to quote but no need and I have been up for another 50 hours and the screen looks funny to me so I am ready to stop typing . Also I know there are guys on here that have heard all of this before and have read more about it in their books so not sure why they were wasting their time even reading all this . So to conclude, even if there was not significant inherent differences with 2 identical LG5 motors such as casting shift that effects intake runners, head ports, combustion chambers, cam, crank and bore alignment, as well as port/gasket matching during assembly and such, there is always the many more differences for an engine from its components such as fueling and ignition as well as age/mileage and sensor variations, and actual octane, quality of oil and others, but worst of all is ambient conditions, which is the most difficult for your typical Speed Density System to address with great detail that realized (or at least talked about much), but its not like we are giving up 20 hp that could not be more easily gained elsewhere (plus more) with a set of great flowing heads, turbo upgrades, intercooler upgrade, etc, items that always pay back the owner’s time and money invested. And last (I promise) and as it was said, none of this matters if your spark plugs have 50k miles on them an a sloppy .050†gap, with leaking vacuum lines and leaking intake hoses bleeding off boost, and such items that all need to get done first, make it run right before you make it run faster, has to be done that way, that’s not my law, just my interpretation based on experience and common sense. Jeff M ps, "location 6 hz" I caught that Garrett pss, Jud asked for something to read so that is why I typed so much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 I am starting to think its time for another look at the motor. runs soooo good, cant believe its running so rich. for those that dont know, I got all new: turbo,x-over,egr tube so rule that out. but I also got 177,xxx miles, a questionable cam with a lot of hard miles, and stock exhaust with cat gone. It dyno'd at 185 hp at 4850 rpms, 228 tq at 3800 rpms, (wheel power). I can tell you where I think the ponies are locked up if you keep asking lots of questions. i don't think you've found them ponies yet but keep looking they gotta be somewhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 my car has seen some hard miles bro. Im trying to keep one of the two running at all times unlike you, cause I got a business and TGPs are the grocery getters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 i just think that TGP newbs should be leary of taking advice from people who only think they know what they are talking about is all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 I must have put almost 60,000 miles on a TGP in the last 5 years. thats about 60% on the city street pavement. bought the car off the auction block with 119,000 miles bone stock. so nobody really cares about either of our credibility anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPnewb Posted May 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 O....M....G.... that was almost to much reading kinda confused about what that was all about lol i was driving my car yesterday when i noticed that i had a 160degree thermostat and i realizided that i porbably have a tg160 chip. now this makes me kinda angry and happy but now that i do i can focus on getting the little things takin care of like heatshielding and so on. i dont know what to get after all this really. im thinking that im gonna do the ac fin removing ... what size are those washers what size hole and whats the daimeter of the washer? so much stuff...but i like toying with things i was also wondering about the 5 speed swap. how much would it run me for all of the parts and how "easy" is it to install? is it worth the swap? do u get more power down with it? besides it makes it more fun to drive right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted May 17, 2006 Report Share Posted May 17, 2006 yeah! make a ton more power with that old 150 k motor and experiment on it with chips and lets see if we can blow it up like the majority of the people I seen here the last few years, then we can have more rebuild topics and pics of LG5 internals and grenaded blocks to gawk at! I cant wait I will be frying off a couple sets of Z rated tires in the months it takes to rebuild a motor. if anything, you other tuners should be thankful there is a good safe chip to go off of besides the stupid factory chip so then when the time comes their car will still be hanging in there and the owner doesnt prematurly blow their motor before the backup motor is ready. that can take years of saving and replacing parts AROUND the motor (if you can still get the parts)before its time to drop in the freshy. Hurry up and get the drivability parts, then if you get lucky like I did (less luck involved when you get a tg160 chip) then if thats not enough, upgrade and tune. Newb, I got a whole box of the washers because a box of 20 was the same price as 8 singles at the hardware store. I got a ton of that peel and stick heat shield and a few feet of firesleeve. It should be enough to do your car and my new car. I will give you a good deal if you are really interested. but then you gotta change your user name after that tranny filter, oil, and motor mount come first though. so no hurry. keep in touch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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