intercoolers!?

[futuretgper]

anyone upgrade yet (just curious)?

 

anyone come up with a set dimensions/setup that will work but just don't have the funds right now?

 

these look nice and have decent prices......found em on ebay......top to bottom bar and plates.....

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/INTERCOOLER-Turbo-Supercharger-1200HP-Procharger-BMD25_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQitemZ8056888718

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/INTERCOOLER-Polished-Turbo-Eclipse-Supra-Mustang_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQitemZ8056888752

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/INTERCOOLER-SIDE-MOUNT-Eclipse-MR2-Twin-Turbo-Chevy_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQitemZ8056888768

 

only thing is im pretty sure (even if they fit dimensionaly) they are over-kill to say the least (accept maby the last one which doesnt seem much bigger than stock....it is 3.5in thick though and rated to 500hp by the guys who list it)

 

 

[herb427sc]

Inlets and outlets are wrong location .

Are you planning on relocating the IC???

[Guest TurboSedan]

i'm really liking the 2nd one...alot like the Spearco i had my eyes on. that's exactly where i would like the inlet/outlet....just route the pipes through the window where the stock IC was. i probably wouldn't bother with the 3rd since it's smaller....but then again it is cheaper. the 1st one would be pretty tough/expensive to plumb. my brother was just showing me that 3rd IC awhile back as a possible upgrade for his R/T.

 

i'm probably going to upgrade the turbo before the intercooler just so i don't have to redo any plumbing. all the mandrel bent pipe, silicone couplers/reducers and T-bolt clamps can be pretty expensive.

[Garrett Powered]

 

you can see the top of the intercooler in this pic. yes its stock, but its a damn good intercooler. I laugh at people wanting to "upgrade" the stock one as it would be hard to do without creating annoying turbo lag. with a little heat shielding, a naked intercooler, and a naked turbo, you will feel the upper intake pipe and, no joke, the thing will be ICE cold. Even after running it hard, it just gets colder. I was going to add alcohol spray nozzles for chemical refrigeration but the intercooler doesnt get warm enough to matter.

 

The real trick to it though is to not suck in warm air from the top of the engine bay...not one of these concepts are my idea either. old school gurus jeff m and turby came up with it, I was just reading along.

[TGPilot]

For the little T-25 running less than 12PSI yes the stock intercooler is sufficent for medium bursts of boost. If you have a logger and watch the MAT sensor counts it will heat up pretty fast if you are at 12PSI for more than 20 seconds with stock fueling. Change the fueling to a better A/F rather than flogging your engine with gas too cool the combustion chamber and the heat transfer from upper engine to intake happens quite fast.

 

Now if anyone plans to run a larger turbo with any substantial boost pressures...the stock will be over-run in a matter of a few seconds.

 

The second one looks sweet...the core is the major concern for me. It will depend on how efficient it is at high boost pressures. Having a top down and the piping running through the old intercooler spot like Josh said is the shortest route for sure. The problem lies with the A/C condenser being in the way. Someone who goes to the salvage yards alot should look at something that is narrower with the same location for inlet and return for the refrigerant. There is PLENTY of frontal airflow for a FMIC on our cars as long as you can find one that is Thick, Short and Wide with top to bottom flow. End to end will cost more for mandrel bending hard pipe than the system is worth!

 

Why would a FMIC cause more lag? If you short route the piping and have an intercooler with less than a 2PSIG drop from inlet to outlet you will not notice anything different. Also why do you have insulation on your lower pipe out of the turbo? If you have your intercooler fan running and you have done the A/C fin mod you are actually keeping more heat in the charge pipe during boost than if it was open to air because of the lack of cold air blowing across it. The compressed air will be LOADS hotter than what is coming in and across your intercooler cooling the charge pipe. Just wondering.

[Guest TurboSedan]

who needs A/C

 

i really doubt a large FMIC and/or long IC pipes will cause any noticeable lag. you should see the intercooler setup on my brother's Omni. the intercooler is wayyyy bigger than those listed above not to mention his charge pipes are rather long & 3" diameter. a quick stab of the throttle and he's at 17psi like NOW.

[TGPilot]

Yeah...if you want to minimalize the effects of more volume to charge you want to go as short as possible. The DSM I had had more than 4' of 2.5" piping and there was only lag because of the larger turbo that was put on the little 4 banger.

 

Does he have a VHT (I think that is what Dodge called them) turbo on the Omni? Does it have long or short runners going into the head? I forget how they were setup.

[iTurbo]

Turbos are high volume/low pressure air compressors. As long as the core has a low pressure drop, the additional voume of the core and charge piping will not increase lag. The turbo will fill the additional volume in a few nanoseconds.

 

Here is an intercooler I'm looking at for my Spirit R/T:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/INTERCOOLER-Turbo-Supercharger-1200HP-Procharger-BMD25_W0QQitemZ8056888718QQcategoryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

The end tanks are on opposite sides so airflow through the core will be more evenly distributed. The additional plumbing required probably won't make it worth it though, so I'm looking at this one instead so the plumbing won't be so expensive.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/INTERCOOLER-Turbo-Supercharger-1200HP-Mustang-BMS25_W0QQitemZ8056888709QQcategoryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[br]Posted on: April 20, 2006, 02:44:25 PM_________________________________________________

Does he have a VHT (I think that is what Dodge called them) turbo on the Omni? Does it have long or short runners going into the head? I forget how they were setup.

 

It is a Chrysler "Turbo II" turbocharger on my Omni (and Lancer too). It's a Garrett T03 with 50 trim (T3) wheel and a stage I/.48 turbine housing. Good for about 250-275 wheel HP.

 

On my Omni, I went from NO intercooler to the big NPR setup with about 4 feet of 2.75" mandrel bent aluminum pipe and didn't notice any more lag than no intercooler.

[Guest TurboSedan]

 

Does he have a VHT (I think that is what Dodge called them) turbo on the Omni? Does it have long or short runners going into the head? I forget how they were setup.

 

it's actually VNT (variable nozzle turbo). it doesn't use a wastegate. that's known as the Turbo-IV engine...which is really just a Turbo-II with a small VNT-25 turbo.

 

i'd say the runners are pretty long. this is a pic of the Turbo-II engine just before i put it in my old GTS. it uses the same intake that my brother's Omni does though:

 

http://www.turbosedan.com/lebaron/DSC01357.JPG

 

you can see the runners are fairly long.

[Garrett Powered]

For the little T-25 running less than 12PSI yes the stock intercooler is sufficent for medium bursts of boost. If you have a logger and watch the MAT sensor counts it will heat up pretty fast if you are at 12PSI for more than 20 seconds with stock fueling. Change the fueling to a better A/F rather than flogging your engine with gas too cool the combustion chamber and the heat transfer from upper engine to intake happens quite fast.

 

Now if anyone plans to run a larger turbo with any substantial boost pressures...the stock will be over-run in a matter of a few seconds.

 

The second one looks sweet...the core is the major concern for me. It will depend on how efficient it is at high boost pressures. Having a top down and the piping running through the old intercooler spot like Josh said is the shortest route for sure. The problem lies with the A/C condenser being in the way. Someone who goes to the salvage yards alot should look at something that is narrower with the same location for inlet and return for the refrigerant. There is PLENTY of frontal airflow for a FMIC on our cars as long as you can find one that is Thick, Short and Wide with top to bottom flow. End to end will cost more for mandrel bending hard pipe than the system is worth!

 

Why would a FMIC cause more lag? If you short route the piping and have an intercooler with less than a 2PSIG drop from inlet to outlet you will not notice anything different. Also why do you have insulation on your lower pipe out of the turbo? If you have your intercooler fan running and you have done the A/C fin mod you are actually keeping more heat in the charge pipe during boost than if it was open to air because of the lack of cold air blowing across it. The compressed air will be LOADS hotter than what is coming in and across your intercooler cooling the charge pipe. Just wondering.

 

 

well, I LOVE flogging my engine with too cool air. ,and yes, the a/c fin mod is huge for keeping cool, I have taken Jeff's advise on that too.The blanketed short pipe need not be naked or blanketed but should have a metal deflector welded to it to deflect all the hot air constantly blown through the mid section. you werent supposed to see that till I got done . as of now it only deflects part of that heat as well as all the radiant heat from the x-over/header.. thats less than 1 inch from the lower charge pipe. so in my opinion, you want something equal to putting on a bigger turbo, then take your turbo blankets off and use some chevy wire to wrap it around your lower charge pipe.

[futuretgper]

well, I LOVE flogging my engine with too cool air

is this sarcasm? the internet always presents communication boundries...any way if it was

 

no intercooler, no matter the size/efficiency, is going to make your intake charge TOO COOL!! we drive our cars here in MN down to -45F in the north so i don't think the intake temps are going to be a danger if that is what you imply (i reasoned that you may be implying this by your use of the word: flogging = beating with a whip or strap or rope as a form of punishment)

 

sorry in advance if this isn't what you meant

 

TGPilot (or anybody):

 

do you think there will be any problems with over heating, associated with larger front mounts, like the bigger two i originally posted?

[Guest TurboSedan]

TGPilot (or anybody):

 

do you think there will be any problems with over heating' date=' associated with larger front mounts, like the bigger two i originally posted?

[/quote']

 

i had kind of wondered about that. i have no AC anymore so i'm not too worried about it myself (same as my brother and his cars). i think as long as the intercooler isn't so damn big that it covers the majority of the frontal area of the radiator it should be fine. luckily the TGP radiator is a nice thick 3-core unit. one thing that should definately be done when adding a FMIC is to block the area that the stock intercooler was in so air is forced through the intercooler & radiator and not around it. it would be a little tricky to do with pipes running through there but not too difficult. you'd probably just have to make a piece of aluminum with holes cut out of it so the pipes could run through them. otherwise i've heard really good things about Redline water wetter...might be something to try if cooling becomes an issue after adding a FMIC.

[futuretgper]

turbosedan could you explain further on your idea to "block off the area where the old turbo was" im not quite sure what this accomplishes...i just imagine a void where the old intercooler was (stock location) and i cant see what you mean exactly...thanks!

 

yeah ive also heard you can run 50/50 distilled/redline!! supposed to be huge difference and the redline water-weter protects against corrosion still! but this is still only a band-aid solution if your running hot....new be-cool rad with a built in tranny cooler would be pretty sweet!

 

also on a side tangent would anyone know the horesepower limits of our injectors?? and to jeffm or anyone who knows.....what is the injector duty cylce running (% wise) at peak with the TG160?? and lastly what is our baseline fuel pressure and wot fuel pressure??

[Guest TurboSedan]

turbosedan could you explain further on your idea to "block off the area where the old turbo was" im not quite sure what this accomplishes...i just imagine a void where the old intercooler was (stock location) and i cant see what you mean exactly...thanks!

 

not the turbo...the intercooler. obviously if you upgraded to a FMIC you'd be getting rid of the stock SMIC which would leave a huge open space next to the radiator. this would give you a great area to run the new intercooler pipes through from the turbo and to the throttle body....although it would also let alot of the incoming air pass around the radiator instead of through it. by blocking off the area around where the new intercooler pipes would be the air coming through the grill/front of the car would be forced to pass through the radiator like it should and not around it. i guess i would just use a piece of aluminum the size of the old SMIC with two 3" holes cut in it for the pipes to run through. and heck for that matter you might just cut three holes in it and run another pipe for CAI...have a K&N cone behind the grill instead of underhood. of course, those keeping AC would need to find a shorter condensor to be able to do this....or just ditch AC completely. otherwise plumbing a FMIC would be a nightmare. you could run them around behind the driver's side fender (like the turbo L36 guys are doing) but the pipes would be really long and that means much more expensive/difficult. you could route them under the radiator but i think ground clearance would prohibit that.

 

i see what you're saying about the Redline water wetter but i wouldn't go so far as to say it's a band aid fix. it would basically do the same thing as what a newer/nicer radiator would do only differently. if the end result is that it keeps the engine temps down that's all that matters really. i guess another alternative might be a bigger/more powerful aftermarket electric fan.

[TGPilot]

You make a good point Josh. The air will flow through the point of least resistance and with a big gaping hole I think it would move through the hole a bit more than we would like. Now with the stock intercooler in place how much goes through there rather than the radiator...I have no idea.

 

In the EVO and DSM world I do not think I have ever heard of overheating or cooling being an issue with a FMIC or larger unit installed. It will still flow a ton of air across it...I don't think you are going to effect the amount of cooling flow across the radiator with a FMIC installed. I have not had personal experience on a TGP, but did on DSM's and never had an issue with engine cooling ability.

[Garrett Powered]

well' date=' I LOVE flogging my engine with too cool air[/quote'] is this sarcasm? the internet always presents communication boundries...any way if it was

 

no intercooler, no matter the size/efficiency, is going to make your intake charge TOO COOL!! we drive our cars here in MN down to -45F in the north so i don't think the intake temps are going to be a danger if that is what you imply (i reasoned that you may be implying this by your use of the word: flogging = beating with a whip or strap or rope as a form of punishment)

 

sorry in advance if this isn't what you meant

 

TGPilot (or anybody):

 

do you think there will be any problems with over heating, associated with larger front mounts, like the bigger two i originally posted?

 

I dont know what Kenny meant by flogging, thats why I said that, sorry for the confusion. I thought he was on to something. no sarcasm intended, I do have a unique way of communication I just realized . I have used water wetter too and it should probably only be used in summer weather. Unless you want to flog your motor with too cool coolant

[futuretgper]

haha...yeah i typed turbo instead of intercooler...oops! i think i see what you mean now turbosedan! thanks for the clarification!

 

garret powered im confused! you were the one that came up with the flogging statement weren't you? when did kenny say it?? or is your name kenny and you like to speak in 3rd person!?!

 

i think i get what you mean now (i re-read the statement)....you don't mean the intake charge...you mean the air that would flow in through the hole left by removing the a/c condensor and stock intercooler, hitting the engine maby? even then i don't think it would be a problem really would it? i thought it would be a good thing to keep air flowing through the engine bay...

[Garrett Powered]

nO my name is Rick. I am the tall dude in Jeremy's cartoon . Bud I think you ARE confused. read back last page again. Look, all I am trying to say is the stock SMIC is and will always be superior to anything you try aftermarket. Go figure, it was designed by Mclaren. I got a mechanic friend who is trying to go huge on everything with 3 inch charge piping and massive fmic with a fan sandwiched in between the intercooler and radiater. pretty tight actually, but we will soon test drive it (its a early 90s supra with a 30k turbo motor from japan) the turbo has a 2 inch outlet then mushrooms out through a giant airspace where its supposed to be able to "make boost" with no lag in what someone said is supposed to be a nanosecond. we'll see. he has a greddy fuel computer wired into his harness so tuning should be easy.

[futuretgper]

gotcha garret...

 

well today for the hell of it i mocked up this intercooler: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/INTERCOOLER-Polished-Turbo-Eclipse-Supra-Mustang_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQitemZ8056888752

 

using foam board..... its would be exremely tight with the secondary fan where it is...it might not even fit with it i cant tell exactly cuase i can't get it in the opening thats how tight it is.....

 

also if you remove the a/c compressor (if you were to remove the a/c system to make more room for a FMIC setup) what do you do to keep the belt in contact with the pulley for the water pump??

 

 

[Guest TurboSedan]

i bought the non-AC pulley from the dealership. it was around $23 IIRC.

 

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC01668.JPG

 

it bolts to this hole in the timing cover:

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC01678.JPG

 

installed:

http://www.turbosedan.com/cutlass/engine/DSC01679.JPG

 

you need a shorter belt too. i just bought a belt for a non-AC equipt 2.8 '88 Corsica. if you have the FFP underdrive pulley i'm not sure what length belt you'd use but there is probably one available.

[futuretgper]

oh wow thats cool i totaly forgot that a/c was an option back then....i don't think any cars today come w/out a/c do they??

 

anyway thanks turbo sedan!

[GutlessSupreme]

oh wow thats cool i totaly forgot that a/c was an option back then....i don't think any cars today come w/out a/c do they??

 

sure do.. lots of base cars today have no A/C, both import and domestic.

[twalt13]

Not trying to hijack thread

 

When I get back from Italy and have my TGP back in the states I am planning on a FMIC to go with my bigger turbo. Was planning on using a 3.4L radiator that will bolt right in taking up all the space created from removal of the TGP radiator. The other option is an aluminum Griffin one from summit. Dual fans from Ramchargers, or what I can find in a J/Y. For the FMIC was going to find a ISUZU NIPR.

 

Just sharing.

[futuretgper]

the whole idea of taking the a/c condesor (condenser??) off was to free up a "hole" for piping to run through.....twalt where are you gonna plumb it??

[twalt13]

I am going to keep it there, the beauty of using a 3.4 DOHC radiator is that it bolts right up and the AC condensor fits perfectly since it is all GM. Will run one IC pipe the hole where the intake was the other will be cut in somewhere on the drivers side.

 

Will probably replace the AC Condensor with one that is not modified for the TGP I/C mod.