dbtk2 Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 So I go home (to my dads house in MI) over the weekend and when I got home (~9:30 Thursday morning) I decided I would take the STE for a little drive. So I start the thing up and drive it around the subdivision for a minute and all seems good so I pull out of the subdivision and get on it a little, and it seems to be running healthy and trans is shifting good and whatnot. So I get down the road and turn at the next intersection. This is a two lane road and its basically in the middle of nowhere. There is no traffic so I pull onto the road and just lay into it. I get a big grin on my face and thought to myself "damn this car is running really well!" So since it was running so well I just left my foot in it. So it reaches about 105-110mph and I decide double the limit is enough and I let out of it. To avoid having to drive a few more miles out of the way I get on the brakes fairly hard so I can make the next street. So I turn onto the street and as soon as I step on the gas the thing is just sputtering, it has no power at all and is barely moving. I get on the gas like halfway (would normally get like 8psi boost and light the tires up at the speed I was going) and it is barely moving. I can hear that it is running like shit and it literally felt like I was on the brakes, I was suspecting a trans issue at first (something was dragging acting like a brake) but quickly ruled that out. So I duck into my subdivision the back way off this road and go home. I put it in park and let it idle and the thing is idling very rough and sputtering and it hesitated when I tried to rev it and whatnot. I shut it off and look around. All the wires are on and look good, replaced the coils like 4k miles ago so those should all be good, I was confused. So after looking around for a few more minutes I noticed my 02 sensor is not plugged in, the damn dealer didn't plug it back in after going my tranny. So oh shit I think to myself, the 02 sensor wasn't plugged in so the car ran lean and popped a piston or possibly multiple ones. So I start it back up to try to figure out more and the car isn't smoking at all, with a popped piston it seems like it would smoke like crazy. So I start pulling plugs and I take the front plugs out and they all look like they've never even been used before. (put them in ~3k miles ago when I did the topend swap) Gaps are perfect, there is nothing wrong. So I pull the fuses for the coils and injectors and did a compression test on the front 3. All of the front cylinders tested EXACTLY the same, 147psi. So I put the plugs back in and the wires back on, nothing I can really do. So I pull the back wires and plugs. These plugs looked good, but they didn't look clean and new like the front ones, they had definately been firing and were black from fuel and whatnot on them. So I do a compression test on these cylinders and oddly enough they all also tested EXACTLY 147psi. (I've never in my life seen all of the cylinders test exactly the same number) So I throw the plugs and wires back in and start to put everything else I tore apart back together. I plug the 02 sensor in, and I start putting fuses in. As I put the fuses in I notice one of them is blown! Hell yeah, I though. Turns out one of the injector fuses was blown and the whole front bank wasn't firing. So the car was running on 3 cylinders which explains lack of power and horrible idling and whatnot. So, since I didn't have any extra fuses, I pulled my A/C fuse from the fuse box in the glove box and put it in place of the blown one (my A/C doesn't work anyways). Started the car up and runs like a champ. Idles fine and runs awesome! I'm still kinda wondering what caused the fuse to blow, but you wouldn't believe how glad I was that it was only a fuse. I was expecting the worst, as it usually is with this car, so a fuse is definately quite a relief. I'm wondering if somehow my injectors being maxed out and running constantly (100% duty cycle) would make them draw more than 10A and blow the fuse, thats all i can think of.. I then spent the rest of the day driving the car around and beating the crap out of it. The trans needed to be broken in properly. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 I was expecting the worst, as it usually is with this car that's to be expected if you beat on the car the way you always post that you do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 The following is going to sound like I am nagging you...but honestly...I AM!! You are brave or just stupid to drive a car on it's repair maiden voyage to 100+ MPH after someone else worked on your car. How do you know if they bolted everything back together? How do you know if they put everything back together right? Obviously they didn't and you didn't check on their work with something as simple as an 02 sensor not plugged in. That shows me right away that they did not take it for a test drive/shake down after it was done. Have you ever experienced a FWD lock-up from an exploded tranny? Kinda freaky to turn the wheel to try and control it and she just goes straight! Oh well. I thought you were talking about selling this car? Not a good sales ploy if you still intend to sell it saying and showing you are beating her up after a "new" tranny was put in. Ok...nagging finished...continue on with your normal life! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuntzie Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 i doubt the car could hit 100 mph on 3 injectors.. im willing to bet on it... even at an idle on 3 injectors the car would be running terrible. ( like what the fuck did you do to my car terrible)... unless it blew when you were driving it i guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted April 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 The following is going to sound like I am nagging you...but honestly...I AM!! You are brave or just stupid to drive a car on it's repair maiden voyage to 100+ MPH after someone else worked on your car. How do you know if they bolted everything back together? How do you know if they put everything back together right? Obviously they didn't and you didn't check on their work with something as simple as an 02 sensor not plugged in. That shows me right away that they did not take it for a test drive/shake down after it was done. Have you ever experienced a FWD lock-up from an exploded tranny? Kinda freaky to turn the wheel to try and control it and she just goes straight! Oh well. I thought you were talking about selling this car? Not a good sales ploy if you still intend to sell it saying and showing you are beating her up after a "new" tranny was put in. Ok...nagging finished...continue on with your normal life! I drove the car about 75 miles before this. Everything seemed to be okay, the car just wasn't running 100%. (which I couldn't figure out why but didn't take the time to figure out why) I even had it on the dyno before this. (and was also stumped by the low numbers) Its not like the trans was completely brand new. I've had it back from them for a few weeks now. (got it back the 1st) i doubt the car could hit 100 mph on 3 injectors.. im willing to bet on it... even at an idle on 3 injectors the car would be running terrible. ( like what the fuck did you do to my car terrible)... unless it blew when you were driving it i guess It was obviously running on all the injectors until either right before I let off or after I let off, because it was running just fine. For some reason the fuel injector fuse blew. That is why it stumped me though because it didn't seem like a time that would happen. It had been running on all 6 cylinders up until this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SigEpCutlass Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Maybe it's just me, but I don't think most any logical person would go WOT to over 100mph if they knew there was a possible significant issue under the hood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted April 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 Maybe it's just me, but I don't think most any logical person would go WOT to over 100mph if they knew there was a possible significant issue under the hood. I didn't think there was any significant issue. The car didn't seem to be running 100%, but it was running pretty well, wasn't missing, etc.... It just wasn't making quite as much power as usual, if I had even begun to think it was an 02 sensor I wouldn't have been driving like that for sure. Honestly I don't even know how I missed that it was unplugged because I had to tighten down my upper I/C pipe because they stripped out one of the clamps and since its right next to the 02 sensor I should've seen it but apparantly wasn't paying attention. One of the reasons why I was actually going WOT from 0-110 was so I could see what my boost was to adjust it to where I wanted because the dealer had screwed that up as well, I was only gonna get up to like 60 or so but I was enjoying it so I left my foot in it a little longer. I was trying to tune it to 100%. I do agree that it wasn't the best idea ever, but after driving my GT for the last 2 weeks I really needed a little excitement...that L36 is a turd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z284pwr Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 I would strongly suggest getting new injector if you know they are running that close to max and you continue running 100+ MPH or you will blow it up, detonation and running lean under boost and lots of load is bad times. They are obviously drawing to much power, I would suggest an adjustable fuel pressure regulator or new injuectors definitely. All that work would be a shame to go to waste when a piston makes a new peep hole through the cylinder wall for you You do have some balls running that thing past 100 full throttle after the first full run, well even 100+ as it is, I don't think my car has ever gotten over 85. It is good to know it was just a fuse though, definitely keep an eye out on that, if you do attempt to do it again and it blows again, I would definitely go for new injectors and make sure everything is good there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted April 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 I would strongly suggest getting new injector if you know they are running that close to max and you continue running 100+ MPH or you will blow it up, detonation and running lean under boost and lots of load is bad times. They are obviously drawing to much power, I would suggest an adjustable fuel pressure regulator or new injuectors definitely. All that work would be a shame to go to waste when a piston makes a new peep hole through the cylinder wall for you You do have some balls running that thing past 100 full throttle after the first full run, well even 100+ as it is, I don't think my car has ever gotten over 85. It is good to know it was just a fuse though, definitely keep an eye out on that, if you do attempt to do it again and it blows again, I would definitely go for new injectors and make sure everything is good there New injectors are easier said than done though, because that requires me to do work to the chip. Since I don't have any of the equipment to do that its a PITA. When I can come up with the money to do that I will be all over it. Believe me, its not like I don't want to. I have a set of 8 24lb. injectors and 6 33lb. injectors here, just can't put either of them in because it runs like crap with either set. It would be nice to be able to run more boost than I am right now. (I am running somewhere around 8psi, I dropped my boost gauge and its off now so I can only get an idea right now based on how far off the gauge is when the car is off) Basically right now, I just hook up my scan tool and raise my boost until my 02's are in the 900mv range at WOT, I usually tune on the freeway in 2nd and 3rd gear from ~55 to ~110 depending on traffic and whatnot to make sure that everything is okay under conditions I might see. Its not often I top 110 in it so tuning up to that speed should be plenty. The chip is commanding more fuel but the injectors are running maxed, but where the 02's are right now is where i want them and where i tune my dads GTP to be, i feel that the almost 1000mv 02's the chip likes to see is way too rich. In all honesty, the biggest thing this car needs is a chip tune. Because if I could put my 33lb. injectors in it, and then tune the chip for them, and all the other problems it has, this car would run and drive 1000% better. You do have some balls running that thing past 100 full throttle after the first full run, well even 100+ as it is, I don't think my car has ever gotten over 85. The car had ~75 miles on it before I did this since I picked it up from the dealer. I had gone WOT a few times before this, just not for that length of time, and I did 2 dyno pulls with it too. (and ended up with lower numbers than it made stock, mostlikely partly due to the 02 sensor) Its not like that was the first time I had got on it at all or anything. I had enough driving time before this to feel safe that it wasn't just going to lock up on me or fall out from underneath or something. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z284pwr Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 New injectors are easier said than done though, because that requires me to do work to the chip. Since I don't have any of the equipment to do that its a PITA. When I can come up with the money to do that I will be all over it. Believe me, its not like I don't want to. I have a set of 8 24lb. injectors and 6 33lb. injectors here, just can't put either of them in because it runs like crap with either set. It would be nice to be able to run more boost than I am right now. (I am running somewhere around 8psi, I dropped my boost gauge and its off now so I can only get an idea right now based on how far off the gauge is when the car is off) Basically right now, I just hook up my scan tool and raise my boost until my 02's are in the 900mv range at WOT, I usually tune on the freeway in 2nd and 3rd gear from ~55 to ~110 depending on traffic and whatnot to make sure that everything is okay under conditions I might see. Its not often I top 110 in it so tuning up to that speed should be plenty. The chip is commanding more fuel but the injectors are running maxed, but where the 02's are right now is where i want them and where i tune my dads GTP to be, i feel that the almost 1000mv 02's the chip likes to see is way too rich. In all honesty, the biggest thing this car needs is a chip tune. Because if I could put my 33lb. injectors in it, and then tune the chip for them, and all the other problems it has, this car would run and drive 1000% better. Shawn You know, I'm suprised more people haven't done this as a secondary idea until they get the tuning..... If you want a possiblity to have it fixed for a bit, check out http://dtcc.cz28.com/ Ryan Gick does the chip tuning, he has done the chip for my TGP. You get unlimited reburns for a year, $40 is it. I'm sure he could help you out considering what he has gotten out of my chip. I have only had to send it back to get another burn once, thats it. Considering he has already done one, I'm sure he could just use the settings for my car, tweak the fuel a little bit and you would be on your way. Plus, if you have another chip, you can still drive the car while the chip is off getting another burn. I have run my car 6500-7000k with ZERO knock or timing pulled out, hell he has even advanced it. If you can datalog it, you are even in it better. If you have $40 laying around, you may want to check it out. Yeah its not all refined and killer driveability like the Jeff's chip, but hey, it gets the job done for me and I do drive mainly around town all the time, with very little problems at all. Just an idea to toss around though.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 WOW...that guy tunes the infamous 1991 Turbo Grand Prix??? 1990-91 Pontiac Grand Prix 3.1L Turbocharged Tuning your own car is not difficult with the right tools! Now $40 to properly tune my TGP? I would love to see it! Sorry for being so pesimistic....but in anything I have found over the years...you get what you pay for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted April 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 WOW...that guy tunes the infamous 1991 Turbo Grand Prix??? 1990-91 Pontiac Grand Prix 3.1L Turbocharged Tuning your own car is not difficult with the right tools! Now $40 to properly tune my TGP? I would love to see it! Sorry for being so pesimistic....but in anything I have found over the years...you get what you pay for. Exactly. Doing it yourself is not that hard, you just have to have the stuff to do it. I woudln't trust someone who doesn't have the car there to do it with, especially for $40, I just can't see how he can get it close without the car there to test it on. Like you said, you get what you pay for. Not only that, but I don't really want to send him my $300 topgun chip and have him screw the thing all up. Plus, while I do have my stock chip, I very highly doubt the car would run using it. If it did it would be very poorly. Even when there was nothing done to the engine it barely ran on the stock chip. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z284pwr Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 WOW...that guy tunes the infamous 1991 Turbo Grand Prix??? 1990-91 Pontiac Grand Prix 3.1L Turbocharged Tuning your own car is not difficult with the right tools! Now $40 to properly tune my TGP? I would love to see it! Sorry for being so pesimistic....but in anything I have found over the years...you get what you pay for. Well, either my car is just wierd or something but I got just as much performance and driveability from a $40 chip with 1 reburn as I did from a $300 chip that was tested like crazy..... Plus, I also got my increased rev-limited, increased timing and fuel, as well as removed brake torque boost removal and removed transmission ramp rates, oh and just as good fuel economy plus idles just fine and dandy, starts just fine when its cold, cooling fans run at killer time. I'm satisfied with my chip and hell, to me thats all that matters I guess. Yes tuning the car with the right tools is easy but I don't have the time to do that is the biggest problem, oh and the fact I have a Haltech in the Beretta so I guess I kinda got spoiled on ease of tuning and don't really want to mess with the burning, erasing, etc. etc. Plus the fact I drive the car maybe 3 times a week, its really not worthing messing around with it all that much, considering for $40 I got pretty much everything I wanted, yes, I did get what I paid for, $40 of good stuff. Oh and no I'm not bashing Jeff's chip, it is a very nice chip with some excellent stuff done to it. It's just well, tuned for a STOCK engine, which I don't have. I got quite frustrated with the stock rev limiter is the main reason why tried it out and for $40 I figured hell, why not, its worth a shot, if it doesn't work so well, oh no, I'm out a whole $40 You are right though, you do get what you paid for, I have also learned this too, many times the hard way, which does suck, oh how I learned the hard way..... But oh well, I was just throwing another idea on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted April 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Out of curiosity, what exactly did you have done to your chip? What are your limiter settings and whatnot? Do you know everything that he changed? I mean, for $45 I could send my stock chip to him and have him use your file with a few modifications to it and see how well it works I guess, but theres no way I'd be sending him my topgun. Also, what is done to your car? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Plus, I also got my increased rev-limited, increased timing and fuel, as well as removed brake torque boost removal and removed transmission ramp rates, So you spin your 3.1 above 6975 RPM? What valve springs and cam did you go with? Transmission Ramp Values? What or where is that in the chip? Didn't know our 4T60 could have those values changed with it being a non-electronic tranny. Are you talking about TCC values? I am not razzing you...I am honestly curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z284pwr Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 Out of curiosity, what exactly did you have done to your chip? What are your limiter settings and whatnot? Do you know everything that he changed? I mean, for $45 I could send my stock chip to him and have him use your file with a few modifications to it and see how well it works I guess, but theres no way I'd be sending him my topgun. Also, what is done to your car? Shawn Yeah, sending the TopGun chip was a no-no, its tucked in the closet all nice and dandy for when I need it I don't know ALL of what was changed, however, he did have a special request thing for what I did want changed, so here it goes: Cooling fan #1 on at 165, #2 at 185. Idle is 1200 cold and 900 warm *This engine idles MUCH better at the high idle, I discovered this when I had the Haltech running it*. Rev limiter is set at 7800. Top Speed set to 150. I had him remove any Boost Ramp maps that are in the chip. Set boost to the normal 12psi, which I don't think it runs anyways, none of the chips I have do. I had the timing all the way through the RPM range uped, especially below 2500. After a reburn, he modified the cool starting maps so it started better cold, idle/part throttle fuel maps were modified so it runs at pretty close to 14.7. So you spin your 3.1 above 6975 RPM? What valve springs and cam did you go with? Transmission Ramp Values? What or where is that in the chip? Didn't know our 4T60 could have those values changed with it being a non-electronic tranny. Are you talking about TCC values? The trans ramp values I think I should have put Boost ramp values. From what I understand, the chip has a boost ramp that controls boost at lower RPMS to help with transmission life....Or atleast from what I understand from the TopGun chip? So to answer yours and Shawn's at the same time.... Yes, I have spun the thing past 7,000. *Thanks to the damn transmission that won't hold/shift gears at top end* It can spin that high anyways, when I had it in the 5spd Beretta, I spun it 6500 all the time no problem plus had pretty good power. For whats done.... Its a '90 3.1 Lumina engine with '91 Lumina heads. '90 Crank Crower Sportsman 5.7" SBC Rods with the smaller wrist pin diamter for 60*V6 pistons J&E Pistons Custom Grind Crower Cam. *The guy designing the engine, good friend, had it ground with a turbo in mind* SI Valves ARP Head Studs *Used Iron Head 60*V6 studs so the heads have been chopped up a little* O-Ringed Block Ported Heads and Lower Intake I'm not sure about what valve springs were used but they were definitely not stock, obviously Plus balanced assembly So yes, the engine was built, it was an expensive little shit too. Its okay though, it will definitely last a good bit of time.... The poor turbo is the one that doesn't like the higher RPMs, well, the trans too.... I will mention however, the more top end paid the price with the lack of bottom end, it makes pretty crappy power below 2500 RPM, even the Desktop Dyno shows this. However, that problem won't be much of a concern as I stumbled across the 3K stall converter. So this, plus Mr. Mitchell with the turbo Cutlass was at one point going to let me take the Auto 4T60-HD off his hands after he swapped his TSTE for a 5spd, which we were going to rebuild to run with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 Have you ever dyno'd that setup? I would be very curious to see what the torque and HP curves look like. With a T-25 I do not think any of the LG5s produce torque above 4500 and the HP I have seen seems to be flatline peaked above 4500. Spinning so fast is pointless with all the backpressure and lack of exhaust flow we are cursed with thanks to the Tiny Tim T-25! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 plus Mr. Mitchell with the turbo Cutlass was at one point going to let me take the Auto 4T60-HD off his hands after he swapped his TSTE for a 5spd, which we were going to rebuild to run with it. yeah it's all on hold right now. i was going to be doing the swap this spring but i still don't have everything i need like clutch, flywheel and pedals. then again one of my cars will be going bye-bye soon. not sure which one it will be yet but it's going to be replaced with something alot newer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted April 20, 2006 Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 Maybe he was just having a bit of fun with his own car and the 16 year old fuse fried. Not that I know it was an original fuse or anything. I know most of my car is original. The durn PMlll is still 100% original, shouldn't be...but is. I know a temporary patch for a leaking rear proportioner valve (assembly). The big nut with no line coming out started squirting fluid. Some tailored rubber and a big hose clamp and...tada. Serious braking still makes it leak by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted April 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2006 Maybe he was just having a bit of fun with his own car and the 16 year old fuse fried. Not that I know it was an original fuse or anything. I know most of my car is original. The durn PMlll is still 100% original, shouldn't be...but is. I know a temporary patch for a leaking rear proportioner valve (assembly). The big nut with no line coming out started squirting fluid. Some tailored rubber and a big hose clamp and...tada. Serious braking still makes it leak by. Pretty much all of the fuses in this car are original, or at least appear to be. It looked like an original fuse. This is why I am going to see if anything like this happens again and then investigate into it, although I'm pretty sure my static injectors caused the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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