Oil article in latest High Perf Pontiac Mag

[88GPSE]

Not sure if you guys read this or not... It's about camshaft lobe failure over the past 12-18 months in flat-tappet cam motors since the new API service classification with motor oil. Very informative read.

 

Here's a link: http://highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_0606_understanding_motor_oil/

 

The short of it is the new API and ILSAC classifications call for less Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate (Zinc and Phosphates, aka ZDDP)) be blended into oil. These elements are anti-wear additives believed to cause catalytic convertor failure, so they are being reduced, without a good viable alternative developed yet. With the reduction of ZDDP, flat tappet cams are failing, and comp cams has even issued a disclaimer with their new cam shafts. Roller cams seem to be unaffected.

 

But many of our "stock" motors are flat tappet cams... and as HPP has documented As insurance, I added a bottle of STP 4 cylinder oil treatment, which has a higher content of ZDDP, according to the label. The 4 cylinder treatment isn't as thick as the old blue bottle... might try the blue bottle with 5W30 oil. The sad part is that all synthetics, in order to conform to the new classifications, also have less ZDDP in them as well.

 

It looks like yet another attempt to get older cars off the road. Just curious to see what the enthusiasts think about this one.

[pitzel]

The short of it is the new API and ILSAC classifications call for less Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate (Zinc and Phosphates, aka ZDDP)) be blended into oil. These elements are anti-wear additives believed to cause catalytic convertor failure, so they are being reduced, without a good viable alternative developed yet. With the reduction of ZDDP, flat tappet cams are failing, and comp cams has even issued a disclaimer with their new cam shafts. Roller cams seem to be unaffected.

 

One way of getting around this problem is to use a diesel-engine rated oil ("HDEO") in a viscosity appropriate for one's car. These oils do not have reduced levels of ZDDP. Common brands include Shell Rotella, Chevron Delo, Esso/ExxonMobil XD-3 Extra, Petro Canada Duron, Mobil Delvac, etc. Marketed towards diesel-engine users they are, but don't be fooled -- they also carry ratings appropriate for petrol engines.

 

 

But many of our "stock" motors are flat tappet cams... and as HPP has documented As insurance, I added a bottle of STP 4 cylinder oil treatment, which has a higher content of ZDDP, according to the label. The 4 cylinder treatment isn't as thick as the old blue bottle... might try the blue bottle with 5W30 oil. The sad part is that all synthetics, in order to conform to the new classifications, also have less ZDDP in them as well.

 

GM Engine Oil Supplement (EOS) is rich in ZDDP and doesn't contain the thickeners like the STP stuff does. As for synthetics, you can purchase diesel-engine-rated synthetics that still have high levels of ZDDP. For instance, I personally use Esso XD-3 0W-30 full synthetic, which in many tests, generates less wear than Mobil-1, and costs almost half as much in Canada from bulk Esso lubricants distributors. Mobil Delvac-1, and certain Chevron Delo viscosities are also synthetics.

 

 

It looks like yet another attempt to get older cars off the road. Just curious to see what the enthusiasts think about this one.

 

The origins of the rules are kind of dumb. Phosophorous contamination of gas path instruments and catalysts occurs primarily because of oil changes occurring too frequently (brand new oil is relatively highly volatile -- and those fumes make it into your cat and oxygen sensors, degrading their operation). This spurred the EPA and the API to develop rules for motor oils so that overly-frequent oil changers wouldn't wreck their cars if they followed the dumb "3000 miles/3 month" mantra of the quickie-lube operators. Its just another example of America being dumbed down to the most common denominator. Moral of the story: use a dual petrol/diesel-engine rated engine oil, and change it at the interval specified in your manual -- 7.5k miles. If running synthetic, much longer intervals are very reasonable.

[cutlass1991]

I dont get it. What's wrong with changing your oil every 3000 miles? I thought that was good for the car.

 

I always try to read threads that have information about oil and filters, and I have to say there is so much contradictory information in all of them that sometimes I think I'm better off just sticking with regular oil and a ac delco filter.

[pitzel]

I dont get it. What's wrong with changing your oil every 3000 miles? I thought that was good for the car.

 

No, its a waste of time, money, and actually contaminates one's exhaust with the 'bad stuff' (like the phosphorous-laden ZDDP additive) more compared with the oil change interval that is recommended in our owners' manuals -- 7500 miles. The oil filter change interval on W-bodies is specified at 15,000 miles, ie: every other oil change. Used oil analysis has shown these numbers to be fairly conservative, especially with modern motor oils.

 

Also overly frequent oil changes can be hard on seals (which are exposed to the harsh chemical effects of fresh additives and seal conditioners every time new oil is poured in). And every time the oil is changed, there is a risk of causing mechanical damage such as drain plug overtightening, etc.

 

I always try to read threads that have information about oil and filters, and I have to say there is so much contradictory information in all of them that sometimes I think I'm better off just sticking with regular oil and a ac delco filter.

 

There is a lot of 'information' out there and 'misinformation'. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com is a good resource; you might consider searching the UOA section to find an individual, 'olympic', who runs the 60 degree V6's with oil change intervals in excess of 40,000 miles on the same motor oil before draining, and the excellent Used Oil Analysis results he has achieved, all with simple off-the-shelf oil and filters.

[SigEpCutlass]

I dont get it. What's wrong with changing your oil every 3000 miles? I thought that was good for the car.

 

I always try to read threads that have information about oil and filters, and I have to say there is so much contradictory information in all of them that sometimes I think I'm better off just sticking with regular oil and a ac delco filter.

 

Wow no offense, but did you even read the article? It's spelled out clear as day in there. Maybe it's just me.

[cutlass1991]

none taken. Yea, I read it. What I meant as far as "not getting it" was oil information in general. Seems like everyone has their own "special" routine that they swear up and down is the best.

[fastbird232]

I, too, get confused. I change my oil about every 3500-4000 miles, which seems about right considering the amount of city driving we do.

 

I've been trying to determine whether it is worthwhile to start using synthetic on a 3.4 with 125,000 miles on it.

[Turbocharged400sbc]

.....

I always try to read threads that have information about oil and filters, and I have to say there is so much contradictory information in all of them that sometimes I think I'm better off just sticking with regular oil and a ac delco filter.

 

There is a lot of 'information' out there and 'misinformation'. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com is a good resource; you might consider searching the UOA section to find an individual, 'olympic', who runs the 60 degree V6's with oil change intervals in excess of 40,000 miles on the same motor oil before draining, and the excellent Used Oil Analysis results he has achieved, all with simple off-the-shelf oil and filters.

 

you sir are to be commended...not many people take the time to learn and understand this stuff.

case in point my buddy changes his mobil1 synthetic and filter every 3-3.5 k miles...I take what he drains and put it in my cars (which is just fine by me...free earl!!) right now my 87 lebaron, 92 imperial, 84 cressida (need to change the oil it now has a total of 10K), the 351W i yanked out of my 86 F150, the 390FE in my 68 F250 all are running fine on his "waste" oil...hell i use it in my 74 Nova's sbc...free synthetic is free synthetic...

I have been trying to bring him around fer a few years now and all i get out of him is "well it's cheap insurance" LOL

well it's nice fer me...an LOF takes just a filter and one of the jugs i let sit fer a month or so in the garage (i let all the particulates settle)...in a way i kinda like my 3$ oil changes now if i drove a dirt road everyday...i would change it more often

 

Jiffy spuge and other do nothing good towards marketing extending service intervals...even with todays much cleaner running engines...

 

remember that "severe service" means dusty/dirty operating conditions, stop and go driving and most importantly short drives. the first is obvious...no mater how good you filter is the engine is gonna suck in particulates...this gets into the oil, the second is mainly wear and tear on the engine (as opposed to highway steady speed/long distance driving), the third is because the engine never get up to operating temp long enough to evaporate any volatiles (HC's)/condensation in the oil, which devolops acids that eat at old style babbit bearings but dont affect the newer more modern aluminum bearing surfaces (one of the reasons you see 0w20 oils now...as an alum bearing can run tighter and withstand dry startups much better, but has less particulate "embedability") used in many engines in the last 10 years or so...

 

that and of course you should change your oil/filter after a major engine repair (and fer the love of god i hope that 3m roloc pads werent used...GM doesnt recomend using them fer a reason...abrasive particles).

 

i rec that everyone read bob the oil guys site, he has lots of good info...

 

Regards, James

[z284pwr]

I'm still going to be more convinced on actual evidence than writings......Our 2.8 had 212,000 miles when we pulled it out/torn apart, with 3,000 mile oil changes its entire life, it was like extremely clean for that many miles. I fail to see how 3,000 mile oil changes was a bad thing for it?

 

All of our cars have always had 3,000 mile/3 month oil changes. Maybe we just aren't cheap enough? Maybe that is our problem? $25 every 3 months, wow, so expensive

[chadz34]

I'm still going to be more convinced on actual evidence than writings......Our 2.8 had 212,000 miles when we pulled it out/torn apart, with 3,000 mile oil changes its entire life, it was like extremely clean for that many miles. I fail to see how 3,000 mile oil changes was a bad thing for it?

 

All of our cars have always had 3,000 mile/3 month oil changes. Maybe we just aren't cheap enough? Maybe that is our problem? $25 every 3 months, wow, so expensive

It will be hard to prove evidence.

[pitzel]

I'm still going to be more convinced on actual evidence than writings......Our 2.8 had 212,000 miles when we pulled it out/torn apart, with 3,000 mile oil changes its entire life, it was like extremely clean for that many miles. I fail to see how 3,000 mile oil changes was a bad thing for it?

 

All of our cars have always had 3,000 mile/3 month oil changes. Maybe we just aren't cheap enough? Maybe that is our problem? $25 every 3 months, wow, so expensive

 

Its not a matter of overly frequent oil changes damaging your motor, its a case of economics more than anything. However, overly frequent oil changes could have reduced the life of certain components downstream from your engine, for instance, your oxygen sensor, or your cat, that do not directly 'show up' in the form of reduced engine life.

 

As far as economics go...$75/year saved on oil changes (1 oil change as opposed to 4 oil changes per year), invested at 10% (typical return of a S&P500 index mutual fund over the past hundred years), for 15 years gives you roughly $2400. $2400 isn't a trivial amount of money -- $2400 can buy some fairly good examples of W-bodies on the market today. What would you rather have, an old-ass W-body with an absolutely spotless motor, or an old-ass W-body with a very clean motor and $2400 in your pocket? Thats the choice that one ultimately has to make.

 

Then there are the environmental issues, the hassle of disposing of used motor oil, the labour associated with changing oil that goes uncompensated (whether you DIY, or take to a garage..its still a hassle). Not to mention that most 3 month/3k mile oil changers are generating a waste stream that is, for the most part, extremely reduceable if not avoidable. Some cars need more frequent oil changes than others (ie: hot turbocharged cars with small sumps), but W-bodies (3.1, 3.8, 3100, 3400, 3.4, and even the 4-cyl engines) contain some of the easiest engines ever built on motor oil.

[88GPSE]

Interesting stuff... Thing is the article also doesn't cover newer engines, it covers old hardened steel flat tappet cams, nothing about bearings, etc. I guess I look at it as cam and lifters on a transverse mounted motor, versus changing a cat convertor and 02 sensor. Universal cats, though not legal everywhere, are as cheap as $35, and 02's are in the neighborhood of $18-23.... still way cheaper than the cost of the cheapest Melling aftermarket cam/lifter stock replacement kit. (Melling DTC-5 at summit racing.com at $120-ish.)

 

The factory service manual calls for Severe at 3000mi and 7500 for "normal" I usually try to keep it somewhere in the middle... about 5000 miles or so, dependant on how the car was driven. If it's really hot or I've had a few hard commutes, I'll change it sooner. I've used synthetics, and I have a hard time justifying the cost... that's my 2 cents, for what it's worth

[manitcor]

I'm still going to be more convinced on actual evidence than writings......Our 2.8 had 212,000 miles when we pulled it out/torn apart, with 3,000 mile oil changes its entire life, it was like extremely clean for that many miles. I fail to see how 3,000 mile oil changes was a bad thing for it?

 

All of our cars have always had 3,000 mile/3 month oil changes. Maybe we just aren't cheap enough? Maybe that is our problem? $25 every 3 months, wow, so expensive

 

Its not a matter of overly frequent oil changes damaging your motor, its a case of economics more than anything. However, overly frequent oil changes could have reduced the life of certain components downstream from your engine, for instance, your oxygen sensor, or your cat, that do not directly 'show up' in the form of reduced engine life.

 

As far as economics go...$75/year saved on oil changes (1 oil change as opposed to 4 oil changes per year), invested at 10% (typical return of a S&P500 index mutual fund over the past hundred years), for 15 years gives you roughly $2400. $2400 isn't a trivial amount of money -- $2400 can buy some fairly good examples of W-bodies on the market today. What would you rather have, an old-ass W-body with an absolutely spotless motor, or an old-ass W-body with a very clean motor and $2400 in your pocket? Thats the choice that one ultimately has to make.

 

Then there are the environmental issues, the hassle of disposing of used motor oil, the labour associated with changing oil that goes uncompensated (whether you DIY, or take to a garage..its still a hassle). Not to mention that most 3 month/3k mile oil changers are generating a waste stream that is, for the most part, extremely reduceable if not avoidable. Some cars need more frequent oil changes than others (ie: hot turbocharged cars with small sumps), but W-bodies (3.1, 3.8, 3100, 3400, 3.4, and even the 4-cyl engines) contain some of the easiest engines ever built on motor oil.

 

Finally some people that dont think im crazy, Ive been running oil changes in excess of 10k miles for the past couple years. Last time I posted my expierne here I had many members call me crazy and/or stupid for doing such a thing.

 

I run AMSOil with AMSOil filters and change the oil between 10-15k miles. I did oil analysis for a year before determining the lifetime and I can go to 25k+ if I desire too.

 

I heard about the spec change myself so I switched to AMSOil Series 3000 which is reccomended for turbo, diesel and commercial applications. AFAIK this oil also will not see a reduction in wear addatives.

[SigEpCutlass]

I'm still going to be more convinced on actual evidence than writings......Our 2.8 had 212,000 miles when we pulled it out/torn apart, with 3,000 mile oil changes its entire life, it was like extremely clean for that many miles. I fail to see how 3,000 mile oil changes was a bad thing for it?

 

All of our cars have always had 3,000 mile/3 month oil changes. Maybe we just aren't cheap enough? Maybe that is our problem? $25 every 3 months, wow, so expensive

 

Its not a matter of overly frequent oil changes damaging your motor, its a case of economics more than anything. However, overly frequent oil changes could have reduced the life of certain components downstream from your engine, for instance, your oxygen sensor, or your cat, that do not directly 'show up' in the form of reduced engine life.

 

As far as economics go...$75/year saved on oil changes (1 oil change as opposed to 4 oil changes per year), invested at 10% (typical return of a S&P500 index mutual fund over the past hundred years), for 15 years gives you roughly $2400. $2400 isn't a trivial amount of money -- $2400 can buy some fairly good examples of W-bodies on the market today. What would you rather have, an old-ass W-body with an absolutely spotless motor, or an old-ass W-body with a very clean motor and $2400 in your pocket? Thats the choice that one ultimately has to make.

 

Then there are the environmental issues, the hassle of disposing of used motor oil, the labour associated with changing oil that goes uncompensated (whether you DIY, or take to a garage..its still a hassle). Not to mention that most 3 month/3k mile oil changers are generating a waste stream that is, for the most part, extremely reduceable if not avoidable. Some cars need more frequent oil changes than others (ie: hot turbocharged cars with small sumps), but W-bodies (3.1, 3.8, 3100, 3400, 3.4, and even the 4-cyl engines) contain some of the easiest engines ever built on motor oil.

 

Finally some people that dont think im crazy, Ive been running oil changes in excess of 10k miles for the past couple years. Last time I posted my expierne here I had many members call me crazy and/or stupid for doing such a thing.

 

I run AMSOil with AMSOil filters and change the oil between 10-15k miles. I did oil analysis for a year before determining the lifetime and I can go to 25k+ if I desire too.

 

I heard about the spec change myself so I switched to AMSOil Series 3000 which is reccomended for turbo, diesel and commercial applications. AFAIK this oil also will not see a reduction in wear addatives.

 

I know this because I use it as well, but Amsoil Series 3000 0W-30 is technically considered by Amsoil to be a "severe service" synthetic oil. Also, I believe you are infact correct that the blend we use will not be impacted.

[pitzel]

Basically, the bottom line is that in order to meet the API SM spec, the ZDDP levels must be reduced substantially.

 

This is why Mobil split their lines of oils. Going with the Mobil1 EP line for longer-drains (which higher ZDDP levels), while retaining the normal Mobil-1 for normal drains and API SM compatibility.

 

Most of Amsoil's better oils (not that 7500XL stuff) don't meet API SM officially because of the ZDDP that Amsoil uses in their product. Some people are quick to criticize Amsoil for this, but obviously Amsoil does not want to sell an inferior product, and Amsoil heavily markets the longer drains. There is a SAE study out there that shows that long drains + high phosphourous motor oil isn't a problem. The problems occur when high phosphourous motor oils are combined with very short (ie: 3k mile) drains -- all of the fumes get sucked through the PCV and through the exhaust.

[SigEpCutlass]

Most of Amsoil's better oils (not that 7500XL stuff) don't meet API SM officially because of the ZDDP that Amsoil uses in their product. Some people are quick to criticize Amsoil for this, but obviously Amsoil does not want to sell an inferior product, and Amsoil heavily markets the longer drains. There is a SAE study out there that shows that long drains + high phosphourous motor oil isn't a problem. The problems occur when high phosphourous motor oils are combined with very short (ie: 3k mile) drains -- all of the fumes get sucked through the PCV and through the exhaust.

 

Precisely my dear Dr. Watson. You hit the nail on the head.

[fastbird232]

I like threads like this.