89 Olds Cutalss Supreme Intl Troubles

[bpopilek]

I have been told on several other forums that this place is the best for my type of questions, so here goes!

 

I just picked up an 89 old cutlass supreme international last weekend with the understanding that it was going to take some work to getting it running good. The kid I bought it from replaced the original stock 2.8l v6 with a 3.1l v6 out of a 92 berretta because the 2.8l had died. The car was able to start and was running, but it was very rough. He had swapped out the original 1227727 ECM with a 16149396 ECM from an 89 Grand Prix. From what I have found is that these 2 ECMS are the same, except the 2nd one has more ram in it. I put the original ECM back in because I have also read that the 2.8 & 3.1 both used this computer. I had the car running, and it was actually sounding really good for the first time. The idle and everything seemed to be correct. The new round of problems started when I slammed the passenger door closed. The engine shut off immediately, and since then I cannot get the car to start. When I turn the key on, the digital dash used to come on and do a self-check and then I could start the car. Now, when I turn the key, the only light on the dash that comes on is the "Charge" light. No check engine or anything else appears. Also, the message center in the center console only shows gibberish or nothing at all. I have researched and found that the 1227727 ECM was know for having troubles and to do a tap test with the car running, i.e. like slamming my car door! I have tried putting the 16149396 ECM back in it, and I get the same results, nothing. The car just turns over and over and never tries to fire. I have also tried the paperclip trick to try and pull any codes from the computer, but the check engine light never comes on to give any codes. Does anyone think that the ECM could be the cause, or could it be a shorted wire? Should I go get a remanufactured ECM? Another suggestion I got was to check the BCM, but I am not sure if this has anything to do with the dash and message center or where the BCM would be located. I have also checked all of my fuses and replaced a couple of blown ones with no change in the final result. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

[SigEpCutlass]

Electrical stuff with my car, is what I know the least about. So I'll just throw this our there, while you wait for someone more knowledgeable to post.

 

From what you're saying, it definately sounds like there might be a short. Check all your grounds. I would especially check the wiring in the loom on the passenger door, for anything unusual.

[Robby1870]

Well, I would try a junkyard 1227727 ECM. You can find them anywhere for very cheap. Thats the correct ECM for the car. Just make sure and get one that matches your current car (like auto trans., Im guessing). Make sure the type of the EGR valve the car currently has matches the type the ECM is set up for (Vacuum vs. Digital). But yeah, I'd try a junkyard ECM first.

[bpopilek]

Well, the junkyard ECM goes for about $30 around here and a reman is $60. I figured for the price difference I might as well get the one that has been gone through. Now, if I can't find one that was setup for auto trans etc, can I pull the chip out of the one that I currently have and use that in the new one? Also, where would I look for the EGR valve to make sure if it is digital or vaccum? Thanks!

[Robby1870]

Well, the junkyard ECM goes for about $30 around here and a reman is $60. I figured for the price difference I might as well get the one that has been gone through. Now, if I can't find one that was setup for auto trans etc, can I pull the chip out of the one that I currently have and use that in the new one? Also, where would I look for the EGR valve to make sure if it is digital or vaccum? Thanks!

 

Yeah, any chip from an auto car with the engine should work. But a 3.1L with an auto trans is probably the most common W-body, so a matching ECM shouldnt be hard to locate. The EGR is located next the throttle body and will have a small tube connecting it to the exhaust crossover pipe. Then, the EGR will connected to the upper intake manifold. Since the motor that was swapped in was a 92, it should be a digital EGR. You will see a black think sticking off the upper intake in this picture, near the throttle body. Thats a digital EGR valve.

 

[bpopilek]

Ok, I will look for the EGR when I get home this evening. Now if the car currently has a digital EGR and the original 2.8 had a vaccum EGR, is this going to be a problem? Or can I just get a vaccum one to replace it with? Thanks for the help!

[Brian P]

I would just check over the ground wires that attach to the engine block and the bellhousing bolts, since the engine has been changed. Also the fuse block, being on the passenger side of the dashboard, maybe has a broken wire, connector, or short.

[bpopilek]

I was thinking the same thing. I am going to try and trace some of the wiring out this weekend to see if I can find anything there, then the next step is a new ECM. Thanks for the advice, I'll post my results.

[Crazy K]

check the C200 connector!

 

Often if someone yanks and engine, the entire harness can simply be detached from the firewall and laid atop the engine with the ecm attached.

this connector in located going through the firewall behind and below the alternator.

 

do not despair. Good Luck!

[bpopilek]

I will check the C200 connector this evening and see if that is the culprit. I know it has to be something loose on the passenger side of the car. I did go pick up another good ECM this weekend out of a Grand Prix with a 3.1l V6, and I get the same results. The digital dash does not come on at all, and the only light that is lit is the charge light. When I try to crank the car over, the check engine light flashes as it cracks, but it will not start. I figured at this point, it has to be a loose connection since 3 different ECM's all produce the same results. Does anyone else have any further suggestions that I could also try this evening? Thanks for the tip!

[digitaloutsider]

The C200 is the passenger compartment firewall connector.

 

The C100 is the engine-side firewall connector.

[bpopilek]

I checked both of the connectors in the engine comparment and inside the car, and both seem to have a solid connection. I didn't have time to unbolt them and check the contacts, but it doesn't look like they have ever been removed. Should I continue looking into this some more, or is there another suggestion that anyone might have? Thanks![br]Posted on: April 11, 2006, 08:28:53 AM_________________________________________________Does anyone know where I can find a pinout of the 1227727 ECM? I want to verify that the the ECM is even getting power and has a good ground at this point. Thanks![br]Posted on: April 13, 2006, 02:04:39 PM_________________________________________________Well, I have determined at this point that the problem is most likely with the wire harness connector under the hood that connects to the interrior of the car, or the harness itself. My next move is the same no matter what the final result will be. Since the motor is good, I am going to start the process of pulling it out and rebuilding it. Once I have the motor out, I will have more access to the firewall connector and the rest of the wiring harness, so I may replace it and put it all back together, or I may scrap the rest of the car since it is in rough shape and find another body. My next question is that since this motor originally came out of a 92 beretta, and it is the older style 3.1l v6, does it matter what year vehicle I put the engine into? Or will it need to be a car that originally had that older style of 3.1? I am thinking of finding a Grand Prix that needs a motor, and I need to know what the newest year I could get this motor running in would be. Thanks!

[SigEpCutlass]

I checked both of the connectors in the engine comparment and inside the car, and both seem to have a solid connection. I didn't have time to unbolt them and check the contacts, but it doesn't look like they have ever been removed. Should I continue looking into this some more, or is there another suggestion that anyone might have? Thanks![br]Posted on: April 11, 2006, 08:28:53 AM_________________________________________________Does anyone know where I can find a pinout of the 1227727 ECM? I want to verify that the the ECM is even getting power and has a good ground at this point. Thanks![br]Posted on: April 13, 2006, 02:04:39 PM_________________________________________________Well, I have determined at this point that the problem is most likely with the wire harness connector under the hood that connects to the interrior of the car, or the harness itself. My next move is the same no matter what the final result will be. Since the motor is good, I am going to start the process of pulling it out and rebuilding it. Once I have the motor out, I will have more access to the firewall connector and the rest of the wiring harness, so I may replace it and put it all back together, or I may scrap the rest of the car since it is in rough shape and find another body. My next question is that since this motor originally came out of a 92 beretta, and it is the older style 3.1l v6, does it matter what year vehicle I put the engine into? Or will it need to be a car that originally had that older style of 3.1? I am thinking of finding a Grand Prix that needs a motor, and I need to know what the newest year I could get this motor running in would be. Thanks!

 

FYI: 1993 was the last year a Prix had a 3.1 before it was upgraded to the 3100 in 1994.

[bpopilek]

So are you saying that I will need a 93 or older body to put the motor into? Is it not possible to put it into a newer GP? Thanks!

[SigEpCutlass]

It would not be worthwhile to put in a '94+ GP. They came with different computers and a more powerful engine.

 

I believe what you need is a '90-'93 GP body if you're going to pull the engine for a direct swap.

[bpopilek]

Thanks for the info. I went and did some searching on the differences between the 3.1 & 3100 motors and see why I will need the older w-body car for it to work without much fuss. Is there a list of w-body cars that this 3.1 will fit into? I would prefer a GP, but if I can find something else first, then I may jump on it. Thanks!

[SigEpCutlass]

You could throw the 3.1 you have into (as far as I know):

 

Any 90-93 W-Body that originally had a 3.1 in it.

i.e. Cutlass Supreme, Regal Custom, Grand Prix, or Lumina

 

As long as it has the same computer in it, everything should be okay. I've never done an engine swap before, but what I'm telling you is based on what people have done here before. If you are serious, I would make a post asking others what exactly you would need to do this swap to be sure you have all the info you need. Hope this helps.

[94CutlassSLCoupe]

So are you saying that I will need a 93 or older body to put the motor into? Is it not possible to put it into a newer GP? Thanks!

 

Yep, unless its a '94 Lumina or Cavalier