THe_DeTAiL3R Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 So you MUST have a car that runs mid 13s.... yet you have a budget of around $1200... That just doesn't sound very practical to me. Hey, you wanna play.. you gotta pay. Just cause your friends have fast cars doesn't mean you have to when you got bills to pay. You might wanna rethink your priorities... That's just my opinion... How do you think I feel driving around a 3100 as my one and only car? I'd love to buy another car and slowly build up my GP into something fast, but I live at home and don't have room for 2 cars.... that's life! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted March 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 So you MUST have a car that runs mid 13s.... yet you have a budget of around $1200... That just doesn't sound very practical to me. Hey, you wanna play.. you gotta pay. Just cause your friends have fast cars doesn't mean you have to when you got bills to pay. You might wanna rethink your priorities... That's just my opinion... How do you think I feel driving around a 3100 as my one and only car? I'd love to buy another car and slowly build up my GP into something fast, but I live at home and don't have room for 2 cars.... that's life! Its not that I MUST have a car that runs mid 13's. Its just that with the money I have invested in the car, I feel that I should have a car that runs mid 13's fairly reliably, thats why I didn't have a problem spending $2k on a trans with a 3 year warranty because I figured it was worth it if I could drive the car and for 3 years I'd be covered, but if I have to put a new one in every month then that option isn't the best IMO. I realize you gotta pay to play, and I have no problem with that, otherwise I wouldn't have invested $7k into my virtually valueless car. I would just like to have a car that runs that quick reliably, and I KNOW I can do it for ~$1200 with an L67 swap. I'm just trying to see if there is a way to do it for that price and keep the engine I have, since I like the engine setup thats in it now and think it would be cool to keep it. joberlee wrote: i've got a 48k mile TGP motor and a rebuilt beefed up trans with about 10k on it that i'll sell you for $1000. you just have to take the whole car with it. http://www.w-body.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38842 looks like this guy could solve your problem, offer him like $800 and see if he bites the bullet. then rip out the tranny and stuff it in the easter egg. . that sucks though compared to my deal. I bought a junk TGP for $225 and got the whole front clip off it. got a spare tranny and motor laying around. all original TGP tranny like the one you need. What is "beefed up" though? Probably means it was rebuilt with heavy duty clutches. Clutches are not the problem I had with my original TGP tranny. I was breaking hard parts, and nobody that I've talked to has been able to find any stronger hard parts for the trans. Plus I really don't have room for another car since I already have 3. My parents don't want me to have more than 1 at home (which is completely understandable) and having 2 at school is pushing it as it is. So if I were gonna buy a car with a trans and rip out the trans this would realistically have to be done in like a weekend otherwise my dad would probably get pissed at me since its his house/garage. (which as said above is completely understandable) I have basically come to the conclusion that the TGP tranny is the weak link and that is what I need to get rid of. So I don't really want to put another one in the car. (I've done it enough times already) Otherwise I'd just have the dealer put another one in the car. Thats why I'm looking at a 5 speed swap or an L67 swap which means I would get a 4t65e-hd which is a lot stronger to begin with, plus there are stronger parts available for it if I do have problems. Also... I was talking to one of the automatic transmission teachers at my school and he doesn't think it would be too hard to adapt a 4t65e-hd to my car since it will physically bolt up (besides the halfshafts IIRC). He said that getting a seperate computer to control the shift points shouldn't be very difficult to do. Because for what I paid for my GM goodwrench trans I could get a ZZP 4t65e-hd, which should be plenty strong enough for my setup. I don't know what would need to be done to the chip in the car to make it work right though? I'm gonna talk to the teacher a little bit more and see if I can figure out exactly what needs to be done and what it will cost and I might actually go that route. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 mom and dad are never happy about that stuff but I guarantee if you are doing what you gotta do to get your life straight and thats normal for you to have to work around little details like that. they love you and will not disown you. And I have broken hard parts in trannys too, it can cost you $600 on up everytime it happens. My parents are annoyed with what I do constantly and never stop nagging me to sell my TGPs and buy a new car like my older brother. I respect what they say and everything, just dont care and laugh about it cause its funny. they got car payments constantly and I never pay for nothing but parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Yea, if the trans wasn't such a weak link, I think we would be posting times the 2.3l turbo ford guys are posting. I see alot of you guys blowing away mod money (sometimes bill money!).. on getting the ride back. The problem is a REAL rebuild is going to cost. THise trans need alot of parts replaced to be reliable like from the factory. AND some replacement parts are the "made in japan/China" ordeal. Most if not all are: fried 4th, broken sprag, slipping 3rd and/or 2nd. The sprag is just neglect..or too much torque. If it wasn't broken then you got a rebuild and broke..then you got the regular "overseas" sprag. THe clutch slippage can be worn valvebody parts, accumulators, cracked clutch pack drums, wrong valve tunning (luxury soft/slipping tune)...or just too much torque. YOU have to not use synthetic oil or Dexron 4. Just use II or III. I would just use B&M trick shift or type F. The other stuff slipp the clutches. Almost like putting motor oil in the trans. THe clutches don't like them. Compared to the 3 speeds ..the 4t60 has ALOT of moving parts. So neglect (oil changes)...can bring any good trans to crap. What Jeff has in his chip (low 14s)is about the limit for thies trans. After that..you have to look for aftermaket clutches, parts to be reliable for thousands of miles. Even the 4t65hd have their owners bikering about how they suck. Maybe the power is too much or just neglect. :?: If I were you..I'd get the money back. For the money..theres only maybe 3 options. A beefed 3t40(less moving parts,proven performer in the aftermaket), 5spd (rebuild..no slap and go here), 4t65hd with blue plate speacials...and what your guy said about a 2nd controller. If you know your going to be pushing beyond 350lbs tq,,,then you need more $$$$. Your looking at chemical treatment hardenning, better clutches, more costume tunned valvebody,accumulators, hardended axles. THen theres the 4t80-e..but good luck ..and it weights more. I got my mind set on chemicly treated 3t40 for my TGP..as I know the trans and there more aftermaket for it than the 4t60. I would toss a 4t65hd with blue plates in there..but I perfer simplicity (less moving parts/non-electronic). But whatever you decide..I hope its for the best and hope it doesn't come back to hunt you. If we had better trans..we would be shopping for better pistons! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z284pwr Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 I was talking to one of the automatic transmission teachers at my school and he doesn't think it would be too hard to adapt a 4t65e-hd to my car since it will physically bolt up (besides the halfshafts IIRC). He said that getting a seperate computer to control the shift points shouldn't be very difficult to do. Because for what I paid for my GM goodwrench trans I could get a ZZP 4t65e-hd, which should be plenty strong enough for my setup. I don't know what would need to be done to the chip in the car to make it work right though? I'm gonna talk to the teacher a little bit more and see if I can figure out exactly what needs to be done and what it will cost and I might actually go that route. Shawn I have also been interested in this idea myself, the wiring of a new computer/placement of it is no big deal to us, its the thing of WILL it work, will the shift thing be correct/can be corrected and still be where the stock TGP shifter is and the axles, if those things can work for sure, computers are no big deal, getting one to hopefully work is the thing. So in other words, I would be curious and interested in this info if you do get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbtk2 Posted March 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 The 4t65e-hd is a lot stronger than the L67 guys make it out to be. I think the main problem is that they run slicks on them without beefing them up and they make A LOT of torque. Not only that but a lot of these guys have over 100k miles on these trannies. Then they take them to the strip and race them all the time and its no wonder they fail. My dad ran 12.4's in his GTP before getting any tranny work done and didn't have any problems with the trans at all, when he had it rebuilt it was still in perfect working order he just wanted different gears and a higher stall convertor, so he got it beefed up a little while he was at it. My moms SSEi has mild mods and runs high 13's (and its a 4000+lb. car) and has the original trans with over 160k on it. So personally I've had good luck with the 4t65e-hd, and it should hold up to what I'm gonna throw at it. It should be significantly stronger than any 440t4/4t60. Plus, like I said for what I paid for my current trans, I could buy a ZZP 4t65e-hd which would be even stronger. I have also been interested in this idea myself, the wiring of a new computer/placement of it is no big deal to us, its the thing of WILL it work, will the shift thing be correct/can be corrected and still be where the stock TGP shifter is and the axles, if those things can work for sure, computers are no big deal, getting one to hopefully work is the thing. So in other words, I would be curious and interested in this info if you do get it. I will definately let you know what I find out. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Just use II or III. I would just use B&M trick shift or type F. Stick with dexron II or III, type F is for old fords and power steering fluid on some imports, It will burn up most GM transmissions within a few thousand miles. It'll shift great before it blows up tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 I had a tranny blow after putting in red line synthetic. I dont know if thats what broke the camels back or what, but not doing that ever again :x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Yea, if the trans wasn't such a weak link, I think we would be posting times the 2.3l turbo ford guys are posting. I see alot of you guys blowing away mod money (sometimes bill money!).. on getting the ride back. The problem is a REAL rebuild is going to cost. This trans needs alot of parts replaced to be reliable like from the factory. AND some replacement parts are the "made in japan/China" ordeal. So true, most all tranny shops don't even know their supplier is sending them cheap parts such as those from China etc meaning its an often occurance the 4T6X-X never gets a honest chance to show itself Most if not all are: fried 4th, broken sprag, slipping 3rd and/or 2nd. The sprag is just neglect..or too much torque. If it wasn't broken then you got a rebuild and broke..then you got the regular "overseas" sprag. The clutch slippage can be worn valvebody parts, accumulators, cracked clutch pack drums, wrong valve tunning (luxury soft/slipping tune)...or just too much torque. Good god :shock: , nice to hear someone who has a real idea on this tranny Its quite a bit of work to iron out all the areas so that you don't have that one last part somewhere that takes you out, with the owner thinking once again that the 4T60 is shit Compared to the 3 speeds ..the 4t60 has ALOT of moving parts. So neglect (oil changes)...can bring any good trans to crap. Agreed again as said above, takes some work to figure out and test what all parts are needed to stop the breakage What Jeff has in his chip (low 14s)is about the limit for thies trans. After that..you have to look for aftermaket clutches, parts to be reliable for thousands of miles. Yep, though the guys here that have had trannies fail is maybe 1% of the total amount of TGPs/TSTEs out there I mean if there are maybe (and this is stetching it!!!) 30 dead trannies here out of 3,000+ cars, those are not such bad numbers. But it makes me feel good there are not more and I tried to help that with the chip setup. But as you know, street driving is about 10 times harder on a tranny than a car used for drag racing>>>i.e.>>>trying to handle really big power that most don't have, yet 8) . All the stop and go and heat that builds up with street driving can take out even the best built tranny if the owner does not have a clue or just does not care how they treat their car :!: Even the 4t65hd have their owners bikering about how they suck. Maybe the power is too much or just neglect. :?: Damn, that is so true that a board like this one (and others!!), and the 97-04 SuperCharged W-Bodies that have maybe 100,000 members or more, that have again, 1% bitchen about their tranny being shit making it sound like they are all that way when its not the case, and you make some excellent points to that case which I believe is the neglect, and the street beating/abuse the trannies take, and the miles, and the lack of a fully thought out rebuild that does not leave out that one "gotchya" part Think about this; Marty Ladwig running massive hp we will never see, and Ron Lumis who just slapped down a new national record for his class in an Ecotec (bleck-ass name engine ) Sunbird with a 7.826, both running the 4T65E-HD, how different is their this tranny from those that keep breaking on the street, NOT ENOUGH to make it a difference to support those claims of the 4T65E-HD owners or the other owners in this 4T6X.X Family :!: that these trannies are shit :!: I have the book that shows the differences between the GM Motorsports tranny and the production tranny, yes, some differences but for a time they were running stock clutches behind these 700-1,200 hp engines :shock: :!: :!: :!: The failures took time to happen but them lasting for as long as they did is a testament that hp limit is not the true and only key to tranny life Quick note, all the best built 4T65E-HDs have removed their dual chain drive upgrade and went back to the single chain setup we have, though there is an upgrade there if you know this as one of the many better parts to rebuild with And there are only some significant differences between the 4T60 version and the 4T65 version, they are not that many or crucial to say the 4T65 is hands down better than a well built 4T60 , it is better in some ways so don't even think I am saying someone is wrong in going to the 4T65 allright 8) , just adding to the creds the 4T60 should also get I know them all pretty damn good (well I have all the notes as my brain cannot retain all this shit every day :oops: but I love a serious humbling when someone tells me new shit I did not know yet ) and I think back on when the 4T65E first came out, GM/Turbohydromatic was touting it all over the place, it was the shit!!!!!!.....ooops, come to find that street driving, and stock SuperCharged motors in front of it were breaking aaawwwww , SHIT says GM so a rush to the drawing board to resolve their oversight and restore their namesake (and embarrassment after all the bragging they did) and then all SuperCharged based vehicles would have mandatory the 4T65E-HD and that holds true today Now I do enjoy bashing GM, they make it too easy, but they DID admit AND try to correct/re-design that tranny faster than they ever have address their issues before so I give them creds for that 8). I have personally talked to the guys who have done the tranny in the 2 Import Class fighters with Marty and Ron and there is no reason a well built 125 or 3T40 or 4T60 cannot be built up to handle a healthy dose of hp to the amount most owners want or are getting close to having, its the same points TurboGTU eluded to, neglect and high mileage as a good starting point, same demise of any tranny built today. And owner street abuse such as long brake-stand, burn outs and such on a tranny that is already HOT from driving it around before these tortures are inflicted upon it. BUT, and to make the point, the other side to this abuse that is able to be handled AND in much bigger engines such as those 700-1,200 hp cars that do the same abuse (burn outs, brake-stands) is they have not been driving around town before doing this, that is the difference, they have the temps just coming up/proper, and not fully heat-soaked (or over-heating) and do one run then idle and shut her down/cool it down for the next run. Now on the street, the tranny is already hot, then gets very hot from some playing around, then continues to be driven and more times than not, driven hard again and again. Same for top speed runs, the 4T6X.X don't like it much more than the 700R4s and will fail if done too often, but you can bet that a 7.826 run had a trap speed we could only dream about, but they dont' fail and why, because its done only once then allowed to cool back down. Now this is not the "only" factor, but its a big player here the heat issue of street driving on a tranny that is old, rebuilt or fully built! Last, and so that people don't think I am sugar coating things too much , I am pushing hard in the other direction regarding our tranny and the others in the 4T6X.XX Family being capable of handling some big hp numbers, a good share of that is fact, but some pushing is to try and offset the opposing statements made about them being shit and unable to be made to last (keep readings guys before you loose your cool!!!!), etc, I can assure you I have felt the same level of frustration of the opposition with failed 4T60s in a TGP long before anyone has ok guys? I am not saying you are wrong, I went through 4 trannies in my first TGP from 1990-1994 and know all too well the discouragement that can cause you ok!! I will say that back then I had lots of empty highways and opportunities where I did many high speed runs, a few that broke the 150mph mark, and many burn-outs, brake stands, manual boost controller, basically horrible street manners but I had a warranty and a dealer with a service manager that knew me and had a pristine GN/turbo nut too so I was covered there, but back then there was nothing at all the knowledge there is today in addressing the weakness the tranny had back in those days, but like I said, the driving I did would have been hell on even a hand-built, billet parts, proto-type tranny . And very last: No, all this is not to bait, or set up people for a tranny kit I might have . A long time first for me is to build an understanding about trannies and what can make them last but more so what can take them out, I learned this all too well seeing other outfits working their ass off to build up a better part, only to have one owner fuck it up and go belly aching all over the internet bashing the shit out of the company that made the part when there was nothing wrong with that part or engine or tranny etc :!: All it takes is 1 person or 1% of owners to start a bithen bash on someone's efforts to make it sound like gospel, and then destroy it/the chance for an honestly good part for everyone else Proof is the demise of ATR that sold many great performance parts for the GN/T-Type/TTA/SyTys/Buick GS and others, as well Kenny-Bell that sold to most of those same groups that now has nothing for them. There are others, some that are so good as to leave me speechless to try to tell you how good they were, its horrible what the internet has done for such outfits So maybe this is one reason I have been hesitant Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z284pwr Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Wow Jeff, long post, all I have to say is lets see this tranny kit you "might" have because well, getting one all in ONE piece for the trans would be excellent for us. Because yes, we do plan on rebuilding the trans ourself. If not, oh well, but if so, I would LOVE some more information about it and what all it has and fixes oh oh, and if its for "performance" usage, a.k.a shifts HARD and can stand higher than the stock rev limiter without getting mad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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