Concerns: Super Low Big $$ TGP for sale on the bay

[Jeff M]

Re: TGP on ebay with 15k miles.

 

Sorry to those bidding on this , and not wanting it to have more bidders, but I really doubt that many have $5k-$8 to blow on another TGP!!!...but I am sure others have seen it, might even post about it here soon. But I really want to offer some observations since this is a pretty big score. Now these are just my opinions, therefore they are to only be considered, not to bank on!!!!

 

With that aside, considering that my father was a car salesman in his early years, and that I have been around dealing with cars, and friends and relatives with their cars for over 30 years now, I have some pretty good background and wisdom to make these observations and suggestions! I don’t like to brag and am not bragging about my qualifications here, that is not in my personality, just stating some facts so that I don’t have the time to come back and argue, or try to prove I have a clue of what I am talking about , thanks .

 

Ok, so this guy says 1 owner before him, this 1st guy pretty much owned it most of its life, but there is no idea how many mile it had when the second owner bought it and what was the date :!: :?: :!:. Next and most important, a TGP that has had a long covered garage life and with real low miles like this has a wear item that got me concerned (and some other small points further down). And that is the (looks like it to me in the “just ok†pic) wear hole in the left side driver’s seat side bolster. That and the the few points below have me wondering if the miles quoted might be a little, off? It appears the seat bottom pad looks in great condition on the right side of that seat, BUT cannot see the left side which would be more meaningful!!!! Even if the first owner was 300 lbs, our leather, especially when it started out new with the first owner, would put up with a lot before this thick leather would wear through like that, I have seen a number of TGPs with 30-60k miles that were no were near having that much wear, I could be wrong, oh yea but just to be sure. In the pic of the odometer it appears the screw there in the top of the pic shows some signs (silver coloring on the head of a fully black anodized coated screw) of being worked on i.e. dash pad maybe taken off to access the gauge cluster/odometer?. Aside from this looking like a pretty rare find that might be to-good-to-be-true, it has me skeptical as it should for anyone looking at it and controlling their wood /keeping a level head. BUT I CAN BE WRONG :!: , hell yes, I use lots of words and statements of “looks likeâ€Â, “appears†that mean just that, not sure !!! And don’t hate me later when its found that the mileage is that low, and what I think I saw not being the case after all, I do hope for the seller and new owner it’s a sale that goes perfect and makes both sides smile for a long time to come , but this is too much money and too rare of a find to not be very careful and get out a magnifying glass to look it over, so I hope all this info can help, maybe on the next car someone goes to look at. Some who are bidding or might bid know plenty about what I state below, others might not so, both grab what can help, throw out/ignore the rest

 

Other smaller things to just point out and don’t necessarily follow my concerns with the mileage statement or much of anything else serious are listed below. I copied each photo in an editor so the pic could be lightened up as needed, and zoomed in best you could;

 

1) I see one vacuum line for the boost controller moved into a non-stock location, most likely the crossover pipe was replaced at one time and this hose reinstalled in a different location, and I say “one time†as pipes typically can fail in about 10K miles plus or minus and with 15k should only be one, and with the condition of such things as the upper coolant hose going to the turbo showing no new bends (done enough work in this area to know how easy it is to bend when taking off the turbo!!).

2) I see some nicks on the paint of the intake pipe, and the hose at the TB a little off, and the flex hose at the intercooler a bit scrunched showing that intake pipe was taken off for some reason, crossover would qualify.

3) Turbo blanket from what I can see is a little ratty for the crossover being replaced maybe once in its short 15k mile life?

4) The large rubber line for the canister purge feed to the intake is running in front of the ABS Unit before it gets to the purge solenoid. “Stock†it runs on top of the back of the ABS Unit like the rest of the mess there, and should be returned there as the gas fumes it contains should not be running in a hose that is laying right over the hot-ass crossover pipe/down pipe in that area.

5) Appears to be a non-stock o2 sensor, a Tomco/Borg Warner/Napa brand.

6) Looks as though at least one spark plug wire is original, the number 5 plug wire that you can see, what’s so big with that, the more original you find on a 15k miles, the more the chances in favor of the miles being correct.

7) Appears the upper intake has been taken off, maybe a few times, evident I feel by the tab being broken off the MAT Sensor (and the intake pipe mention above). NO surprise the injectors took a shit over the years no matter the miles!!

8) I am very surprised to see the aluminum corrosion from a car that is being sold in Texas, maybe it came from elsewhere but I only see things like the wastegate actuator can not having its gold anodized finish in cars that see salt, or a lot of wet periods that his car was not supposed to have. Also the rear TGP Emblem Gold appears a bit gone, I would not expect to see that on a 15k mile car, less it seen salt, but the photo resolution is poor so might be a much better/perfect emblem!!!

9) Antenna is bent/broke

10) Service Manual is coming apart at the top of the binder/backing, I hope someone did not have to use it that much in 15k miles but I know I would enjoy reading all about the car and once did when I bought my first TGP in 1990.

11) The one rim with the same lame picture quality seems to show in favor of the mileage statement, there appears to not be all the marks and corrosion of wheel weights being on the tire for a while, taken off and new ones add, taken off later and new ones added as the tires wore out on a car with real miles (60k++).

12) No sunroof, no CD player if they every worked.

13) I really don’t care how good the rear floor and rear seats look, seen plenty here at my place, and on ebay, and pics from other owners all with 80-160k miles that look that good/unused really. So not indicative of anything other than they are all in great condition.

14) Left foot resting place on the floor carpet looks pretty well used, seems pretty flattened out and dirty for only a years worth of driving/15k miles

15) Right rear seat seems to show some use more than most that get nearly none.

16) Hard to tell if its just dirt or something else but the red paint on the top of the left/driver’s side strut tower has something white/primer marks showing through the red paint, like those that would happen if someone had an engine support bracket resting there while the tranny was dropped out the bottom and serviced/replaced.

 

That’s it. Other than that, if I was looking at any car, but more so one with these low of miles/big of $$ to be invested, I would require some receipts of work that was done to it since 1990, or at least any work that can be shown, not just that is has been worked on, but some dates and the miles!! From my guess maybe a new updated tranny to fix the harsh downshift that was common to the cars back then (I know, I got one installed in 1992, while under warranty like this owner might have 8) ), new injectors since its pretty much assured it was needed sometime along the way, something along those lines.

 

Now, to be fair and that is more to my personality, and preference, should I also be wrong too, there are signs it is a low mileage car! Looking over the lame ass photos where the duffus is at times standing in the sun light casting a shadow over the area he is photographing, I can still see the engine bay with the following:

 

1) Original and clean looking radiator cap (most don’t look that good, or are still there)

2) Alternator looks untouched, most all TGPs with some mile will have replaced the alternator and not done the trick it takes to get the damn wires to go under it when installing a replacement alternator.

3) The front Valance looks unbeaten, if never replaced or repainted, good indicator of at least a good driver.

4) Overall the rest of the car looks super clean and something to really go after!!!!

 

 

Last I would almost insist a perspective buyer pay the few bucks for the CarFax option to “maybe†see if the mileage can be confirmed before they go any further, AND before they buy it!!! I said “maybeâ€Â, as a CarFax is only as good as the chances that the car has had to go in for service, emissions test etc, and that the service shop recorded the mileage, its not always done and differs from state to state as well on where it can show up at to get to CarFax's system. Now, assuming a lot here and a nasty consideration that I hope is NOT the case , and this could happen to any car up for sale so, if the first owner put on lets say 30,000 miles or more, then before he sold it, rolled the odo back or swapped in one that showed 15k miles, who is to know any different, unless there was service work done at a dealer that had the mileage taken down AND also entered into a system that the local DMV and/or CarFax system can access, those are 2 big “ifs†that as I said, are the chances for CarFax to be good or not at serving your needs. If the mileage was not taken down and did not reach their system, then CarFax will not have any info to show/prove the mileage along the way for a car. You can always hope with other cars that emission tests and/or title transfers happened that will give a recorded mileage, but sounds like with this car that there will only be the first title/new with something like 5 miles, then nothing until it was sold to the current owners, huge gap between those times and no other title changes to see a mileage statement!

 

If someone runs a CarFax and finds enough entries to show the mileage is legit, then I am offering a very sincere apology now :!: , and to let anyone know I meant no harm to the seller, or wanted to add worry to the buyer, I was just hopeing to offer some wisdom that I have learned over the years, and have gained from many others 8) . I would hate to see someone here with an unhappy story, so, I seriously hope I am wrong and that the new owner comes on here to correct me , then tells us all the good details, then brag brag brags about their score .

 

Best of luck on how this turns out!!!!!

 

Jeff M

[mfewtrail]

Can I purchase the cliffs notes for this book you just typed out Jeff?

 

 

I posted a thread in the Auction Watch section for this car. As I said there, the owner of that car needs an ass kicking for taking those sorry pictures of a low mileage TGP.

[90_Black_TGP]

I have to agree with Jeff. When I first saw this car on EBay, I first thought that it was an amazing car. But the more and more I started thinking about it, the more questions I had. On the dash pic, I noticed the screw has been out of the car at least once, looks like it has screwdriver rash. The front fender has scratches by the battery, underhood paint is pretty faded, antenna it toast... I know these are small things, but on a 15k car I would expect there to be none of this. I wish I was closer, Im about 5 hours from Waco, and I would go take a peek at this one. Another thing that bothers me about this car is last years weather... There were alot of areas that were flooded down in the south and I would definitely ask that question. Texas has state mandated annual vehicle emissions and are very strict about it, so if the car IS a Texas car it will have a history with the Texas DOT, but if it is from another state like Oklahoma, they ditched the annual emission testing about 5 years ago and there wont be a history. BUT AGAIN LIKE JEFF, I hope I am wrong, and if I am I apologize, if this is car indeed a 15k car, it would be an awesome find, but I still don't know about the price... NADA list <$8k?

 

But it DOES have the vacuum block clip on it Jeff !

[Jeff M]

Can I purchase the cliffs notes for this book you just typed out Jeff?

 

 

I posted a thread in the Auction Watch section for this car. As I said there, the owner of that car needs an ass kicking for taking those sorry pictures of a low mileage TGP.

 

Yea, I am a bit into information sorry about that if its too much? I think because of being on the Internet since 1993 or 94, then getting my own PC in 95 and being steady with its use since then, I have collected too much info for my own good, or others to hear . Seems the history of posts are that a piece of info gets talked, which brings on another idea or question, then another, then another till you have quite a few posts on many pages, so I try to just get it all done in one shot, and many times I kill posts that way and take all the fun out of it for others who want to post and who were enjoying the topic, luckily I don't know everything about everything (still working on that project ) so I can't do too much of this damage 8)

 

Thanks for adding the info to the "Auction Watch" side, did not want to alert too many people, bad enough it being here, but a few that are bidding are some of our great guys that post here and are TGP/TGP Engine'd owners

 

Well it's getting early :? , and already tomorrow for me so better crash.

Later.

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

I have to agree with Jeff. When I first saw this car on EBay, I first thought that it was an amazing car. But the more and more I started thinking about it, the more questions I had....(snip)

But it DOES have the vacuum block clip on it Jeff !

 

Yea, and another thing (insert break here for some coffee , all other members leave the room :shock: ) it was owned by a dealer and I have heard way too much about car salesmen, studies show they are the lowest form of life next to the earthworm, not totally their fault, they are trained that way, dealer in Michigan was always in the paper getting caught turning back odo, adding saw dust to the oil to curb a knocking engine, tons of bad things. Then another huge dealer, the largest Chevy Dealer in the USA, and someone I know got a job there and during their salesman training the owner of this dealership brags about how he sold a piece of shit used car to his own aunt, his own blood , their moto: "There is an ass for every seat". So that one sends up a big flag to me. I totally forgot about the floods down there :shock:, very good point, and another thing to watch out for over the next 5 years or so, ouch!

 

As for the ultra rare vacuum block clip, guess I better swim down there and check out this car and see if he wants to part it out , why not, someone sent a question that was listed there asking if he would just sell it for $800

 

Alright, good night!!!

 

Jeff M

[john99gtp]

But it DOES have the vacuum block clip on it Jeff !

 

 

hey, ive got one of those

 

 

that guy really looks like hes full of himself, and those dealer horror stories are.... :shock: just wow.

[90_Black_TGP]

But it DOES have the vacuum block clip on it Jeff !

 

 

hey, ive got one of those

 

Wanna sell it? lol, I actually have (most) of mine, If you have one be extra careful with it, they crack easy and are next to impossible to find. I thought about modding (is that a word?) a three line one off a regular 3.1 but I havent been able to find one of those in good shape either. A lot of the cars in the salvage had the Z1P option on the vacuum line.

[Guest TurboSedan]

as far as carfax goes, DOHCRagtopguy has been generous enough to offer free carfaxes to us here on the forum (has done almost 50 of them already :shock: )

 

check here:

 

http://www.w-body.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38719&start=0

 

thanks for the warnings/concerns Jeff. if i were seriously considering this car, i would demand to contact the original owner.

[Bossman429]

But it DOES have the vacuum block clip on it Jeff !

 

 

hey, ive got one of those

 

Wanna sell it? lol, I actually have (most) of mine, If you have one be extra careful with it, they crack easy and are next to impossible to find. I thought about modding (is that a word?) a three line one off a regular 3.1 but I havent been able to find one of those in good shape either. A lot of the cars in the salvage had the Z1P option on the vacuum line.

 

The one came out of my Beretta, and I put some RTV around the ridges on the vac block, and stuffed it in there. I guess it's not seeing boost, but I don't think it would come out, RTV is the next best thing to super glue. That would look better than the "zip tie" method which the Beretta had before I got it and fixed it.

[Bossman429]

as far as carfax goes, DOHCRagtopguy has been generous enough to offer free carfaxes to us here on the forum (has done almost 50 of them already :shock: )

 

check here:

 

http://www.w-body.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38719&start=0

 

thanks for the warnings/concerns Jeff. if i were seriously considering this car, i would demand to contact the original owner.

I was thinking that same thing, then I saw your post.

Carfax would provide a lot of possibly useful info on that car.

[Jeff M]

Ah, that's good Davis, if it was a good car, you're a good home for it 8) would like to see it go to someone I know, that deserves a nice reward too

 

Soooo....anyone run that CarFax offer on it?....from that guy who was so nice to offer all that for free to everyone :shock:. Really nice of him, and to take on the inevitable bombing from everyone wanting something like that/and being free too :shock:. Then having people complain he is too slow :gone2far: shit I would not care if it took a month, it's free and even if he did know you, what would you expect, that's some work, and all the requests that you would get, I bet he gets burned out here soon! Must have bought the dealer versions that costs more money :? , I remember back a while ago when I bought the cheaper version, after checking 3 cars it started to bug me and asking for more info from me, and stating that if I was a dealer that I needed to buy the upgraded package, it still gave me the 8 that I ran though 8) .

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

Lowered the price :shock:

 

"IF" that is a car with only 15k, it should go for over $6k easy. Futuretgp'r had an insurance claim that showed his mint TGP with around 39k was worth $7 I beleive. Granted this other one needs some scrutiny, but 15k and assuming it to be in excellent condition, NADA shows

 

Low Retail|Average Retail|High Retail

$3,425|$6,250|$9,500

 

Kelley Blue Book and others show much less value though.

 

But who knows, but long before auction close and he is already dropping the reserve?? And its at $5k now, odd he would want to drop it so soon with so much bidding and the price shooting up so fast long before auction end, really odd, unless I am missing something :? Maybe he is running stealth at this board

 

Jeff M

[Guest TurboSedan]

 

But who knows, but long before auction close and he is already dropping the reserve??

 

maybe he's lurking this forum

[Jeff M]

 

But who knows, but long before auction close and he is already dropping the reserve??

 

maybe he's lurking this forum

 

Yep, I think we agree

 

Maybe he is running stealth at this board

[Black 90 TGP]

$7,000? Without seeing or driving? The seller has no feedback & I have never

seen such bad pictures! I did buy my GTP on ebay from Canada but he was

a small used car dealer & had tons of transactions & positive feedback and

he had 50+ clear detailed pictures of the car. He also pointed out all

imperfections though not many were there. I got a great car at a great price

but I would be worried about this one. It will be interesting to see what the final price is & also to check the feedback given after the auction.

[90_Black_TGP]

I was thinking what the hell????? I didnt post that!!! Welcome Black_90_TGP

[GOT2B GM]

Looks like that guy just ran the auction up till he met the reserve.

[Black 90 TGP]

 

 

 

I was thinking what the hell????? I didnt post that!!! Welcome Black_90_TGP

 

 

Thank You. Been gathering info for a while now but

never posted.

[skalor]

Black 90 TGP, where in eastern PA are you located?? Too bad I'm selling my TGP and it could be gone as early as next weekend.

[Jeff M]

I did buy my GTP on ebay from Canada

 

Ummm, a GTP = Grand Turbo Prix :? that is rare . We be TGP or Turbo Grand Prix, or some might all it a Grand Prix Turbo GPT, sounds odd that way though .

 

Welcome!!

 

Jeff M

[Black 90 TGP]

Black 90 TGP, where in eastern PA are you located?? Too bad I'm selling my TGP and it could be gone as early as next weekend.

Hi Skalor, thats too bad. I live near Valley Forge. (Chester County)

[Black 90 TGP]

I did buy my GTP on ebay from Canada

 

Ummm, a GTP = Grand Turbo Prix :? that is rare . We be TGP or Turbo Grand Prix, or some might all it a Grand Prix Turbo GPT, sounds odd that way though .

 

Welcome!!

 

Jeff M

Hi Jeff, look at my signiture. I have a 1990 TGP & a 2000 GTP. I'm the guy who has the TGP with grey interior. You have two pics of it on your website. The GTP I got on ebay. The TGP I bought new in 1990.

[Jeff M]

I did buy my GTP on ebay from Canada

 

Ummm, a GTP = Grand Turbo Prix :? that is rare . We be TGP or Turbo Grand Prix, or some might all it a Grand Prix Turbo GPT, sounds odd that way though .

 

Welcome!!

 

Jeff M

Hi Jeff, look at my signiture. I have a 1990 TGP & a 2000 GTP. I'm the guy who has the TGP with grey interior. You have two pics of it on your website. The GTP I got on ebay. The TGP I bought new in 1990.

 

Oops, so you Be the Newbie That will teach me to still be up and posting at 5am Thanks for the clarification

 

Jeff M

[kuntzie]

well i just got this from ebay, a chance to buy the car at 5,050 bucks...

 

 

[Black 90 TGP]

Ah, so csi-level3 backed out or whatever. Strange,I thought of this exact senario before the auction ended,

Spooky...... Anyone takers?