Chinski Posted March 18, 2003 Report Posted March 18, 2003 I have a 90 Lumina Eurosport with 202K miles on the original motor/tranny. It's the 4t60 right? not the 4t60-E. What does this really mean to me besides not electronic? What actually maks the tranny shift? I am wondering because I am having probs again. It doesn't want to shift out of 1st or 2nd when its cold. This happened to me about 2mos ago. I thought it was just low fluid (cause it was low) and I filled it and then ended up just geting it changed while my car was in the shop anyway. The problem went away but now is back again. It won't shift out till real real high RMP's. Exactly how high seems to depend on the temp outside. It also just does it in the morning when the car has been sitting all night. Once I get it to shift through the gears once it shifts like it used to after that. No problem. It seems like something is "sticking" overnight and after it is spun up to hell it works fine. I checked my fluid level again and it is to the full line and looks nice and clean still. Any ideas? I'm thinking about trying some of that Lucas additave that I read about on here recently. Could some sensor or something be giving me the trouble? I really can't afford to have it rebuilt, especially with all the other prob with my car. Doesn't seem worth it. If it comes down to that do you think it would be reasonable to get one from a yard and have that put in? Any cheaper or is there still a lot of labor charge involved? Like this morning: Got into car to drive to school Engine goes to just over 4000RMP then shifts Engine goes to just over 5000RPM and shifts Then shortly after coming out of 2nd the OD kicks in cause I'm going 65MPH at this time in 3rd. If I hadn't been going 65 I would have been in 3rd till 3000+RPM for the OD to come on. It usually kicks in at 45. I do all this under normal to slow acceleration. After this initial tranny/engine torture it shifts normal. Even 4hrs later when leaving campus. Sometime I'll get a little hasitation later in the day but not as bad as first thing in the morning. Quote
Robby1870 Posted March 19, 2003 Report Posted March 19, 2003 if you have the 3.1L then you have the 4T60. The non electronic means that the shifts are controlled by the vacuum in the transmission. So, basically, it controls itself, the computer does nothing really with shiftin. Now, your problem sounds like maybe a shift solenoid. There is a solenoid that controls its shiftin into Overdrive. There is also a switch for 4th gear shifting. Is your torque converter locking up?? Maybe the torque converter is not locking up and/or the 1st and 4th gear switch and solenoid are messing up. Try this: On the front of the tranny where it bolts to the engine, there is 5 prong plug. This is easy to get to, its right under the air box. This plug controls 5 things 1) 1st gear switch 2) 1st gear solenoid 3) 4th gear switch 4) 4th gear solenoid 5) Torque Converter Clutch lock up. Un plug this switch and see what happens. By unpluggin it you will end all of the above mention connnections leavin the tranny to shift on its own. (This will not hurt it one bit) However, if you pull this plug you WILL NOT get torque converter lockup. Pull the plug and see if it shifts fine. You may have a solenoid going out on you. If that does not do it, you may have a vacuum leak in your tranny somewhere, which I dont really know that much about. Hope this or others can help you. Robby Quote
rglguy Posted March 19, 2003 Report Posted March 19, 2003 i havea similar problem in the morning, when its cold, it likes to take a long time to shift, and sometimes, it wont shift till about 6200 RPM, then it shifts and you get whiplash, it could be the linkage that goes from your TB to your tranny, it can be adjusted, follow manual or go to a tranny shop, it should bea cheap thing or free even...let me knwo Quote
Chinski Posted March 25, 2003 Author Report Posted March 25, 2003 So I finaly got around to pulling that plug and trying it out. It seemed to shift a little high still but not real bad like before. Then I put the plug back in and no difference from having it unplugged except for the going into OD part, which it did do when re connected. It was actually above freezing this day so who knows. Its still shifting late with the plug back in today. I'll have to try it again but I have a feeling that is my problem, but i guess it wouldn't hurt to have the linkage checked too. Would any additive help the solenoids from sticking? I saw some STP stuff that said it was for high milage trannys and was supposed to clean stuff up and help with seals. I dunno. I didn't see the Lucas stuff while I was there (Walmart - and those bastards were all out of the oil I use too, the only kind missing on the shelf). I'll have to check out a auto parts store when I have time. It was Sunday so nothing was open. I was told by a buddy of mine that those solenoids are so far up in there that I might as well get a rebuild if I'm going to have those solenoid replaced/cleaned because of the work to get to them. Is this true? One other thought, is it possible to just leave the OD solenoid connected? I'm affraid if I leave them all disconnected they will permanantly get stuck and I'll never get OD back; no good for when I have to drive 450miles home from school. Quote
Robby1870 Posted March 25, 2003 Report Posted March 25, 2003 well, the solenoids are way up in there, Im not for sure about the OD solenoid, know the Torque Converter Clutch solenoid, can be accessed through the side pan, but not sure about the others. yeah If Im was to have most of my tranny apart, I would just rebiuld the whole thing. Leaving that connector disconnected shouldnt hurt anything. You just wont have TC lockup or OD. But, since you need OD, hook it back up. Sometimes, taking that sensor off and then puttin it right back on will fix the problem if the solenoid is stuck. Hope it works out for ya! Robby Quote
Chinski Posted March 27, 2003 Author Report Posted March 27, 2003 Ugg. Before I left for school this morning I pulled the plug again to try that out one more time. It shifted exactly like it has been doing with the plug in. Still shifting real late the first time through the gears. So I take it this means the problem is something else. Vaccume leak? Linkage? One more piece of info: when it is not shifting up like it should and I take my foot off the gas and coast it does not drop into neutral or whatever. The car just "engine breaks". Once it goes through the gears it does drop out when I take my foot off and coast, like it should. Could this be some sensor or something? Once again I am stumped. Quote
Robby1870 Posted March 27, 2003 Report Posted March 27, 2003 Im not sure, the solenoids may be completely froze up and stuck or the switches maybe locked up too. I guess take it to a tranny specialist and let him see. If it was a vacuum leak, it wouldnt do that, it would probably shift hard. Yeah that is pretty wierd Robby Quote
Chinski Posted March 27, 2003 Author Report Posted March 27, 2003 I was talking to this guy at school who is a Mechanical Engineering grad student (and also a avid member of the 4x4 club) and he said it might be a cable that is sticking. He said there is this drop down (or something like that) cable that tells the tranny if it should downshift due to WOT or the like. If my cable is rusty it could be sticking and telling the tranny that it should be in a lower gear and not shift till high RPS's. Made sense to me. It sticks and thinks I'm flooring it when I'm actually not and it doesn't free up till the tranny goes through the gears and then it works right. I'll have to check it out, but I hear we are supposed to get 10-16 inches of snow tonight so I dunno when I'll get to it. Its already starting to snow... Quote
rglguy Posted March 28, 2003 Report Posted March 28, 2003 thats sticking could be, i founda vaccum leak today on the tranny, the tube that is near the tranny conector, it runs up to the manifold..... car shifts a bit smother now................ Quote
1trucavalier Posted March 31, 2003 Report Posted March 31, 2003 did you try turning the screw on your modulator??? I put in a new modulator but didn't adjust it and when it was cold it ran like pure shitttt! I put 5-6 turns on it and it shifts perfect. Quote
Chinski Posted April 1, 2003 Author Report Posted April 1, 2003 Hmm...haven't tried that yet. I'll have to check that out too. I haven't even gotten a chance to look at my cable either, too much damn snow and only a parking lot to work in... Quote
1trucavalier Posted April 1, 2003 Report Posted April 1, 2003 your tranny shifts via vaccume so you might also want to check those 4 vaccume tubes on top of your tb to make sure they are not leaking. also check the tb vaccume inlet that goes to your tranny. The rubber connector on mine was totally cracked and basically fell apart once I took it off for other maintenance. I suggest replacing it with a matrix or equivalent silicone unit. I you are gonna try the turning the modulator screw or you have one that doesn't or can't be adjusted just go to the local parts store and ask for one for you application but make sure and look at it first and make sure it has a adjustment screw. If for some reason it doesn't tell them you want one for a 77 camaro with 350 trans adjustable unit. It only cost $7.80 at advanceauto so if thats not the problem you only lost $8. You may also need to check your modulator check valve <----(i think thats what its called). It may be bad and will release the vaccume pressure between shifts making the tranny sluggish. Contrary to what is said the modulator is not supposed to be plugged at the end with a screw. If it is something is wrong. Mine was plugged and I removed the screw and adjusted the mod and its shifts perfect and snappy Quote
Robby1870 Posted April 1, 2003 Report Posted April 1, 2003 yeah plugging that line will make the shifts have NO vacuum on them, and they will be extemely hard and rough, and not good for the tranny Robby Quote
paulo57509 Posted April 1, 2003 Report Posted April 1, 2003 If I recall some of the automatic transmission classes I've taken years ago, the transmission shift points are determined by: throttle position, engine vacuum and governor speed (hydraulic pressure). Since the transmission only acts up when it's cold, I'd look at the hydraulic system. When was the last time the transmission was serviced (fluid and filter changed)? I'd start with this. I'd also verify that the throttle cable is properly adjusted. You say the transmission shifts normally when warm, so this probaly isn't the problem. It's worth checking the adjustment anyway. Someone mentioned inspecting the vacuum line(s) that feed the vacuum modulator. This should be done. Going a step further, pull the vacuum line at the modulator. If you see AT fluid there, your modulator is punctured and needs replacing. I wouldn't mess with the modulator adjustment at this time as the transmission shifts normally when warm. The non-electronic OD transmission doesn't have any soleniods that I know of, other than the one for TTC lock-up. Quote
Guest Anonymous Posted April 2, 2003 Report Posted April 2, 2003 Pull the vacuum line off the modulator and see if fluid comes out. If it does replace the modulator. Quote
Robby1870 Posted April 2, 2003 Report Posted April 2, 2003 Pull the vacuum line off the modulator and see if fluid comes out. If it does replace the modulator. Hey, redturbo, where is the modulator on 440T4/4T60? Cuz, Im gonna buy an adjustable modulator, so I can firm up my shifts, especially the 1-2 shift. Its like $10 and I want to do it this weekend. Or, is there a chance the one on there is adjustable Not tryin to hi-jack post, just curious Robby Quote
Black Pheonix Posted April 17, 2003 Report Posted April 17, 2003 modulators adjust firmness but i've heard tv cables adjust shift point. My TGP refuses to shift at wot and you have to let of the gas almost completely or it continues above redilne. How Do i fix this and make it shift where its suppose to. Also shifts take like 2-3sec. I let up on the gas and then press it again too soon and my car acts like its in neutral and revs really high but doesn't move. Thanks, Quote
Jeff M Posted April 18, 2003 Report Posted April 18, 2003 Correct, externally supplemented the vac mod controls line pressure/shift firmness and the Throttle Valve (TV) Cable controls shift points/rpms. Now on the TGP when the engine is cold, the chip backs down on the boost and timing so when you punch it the engine will get to about 5,000 and stay there, not good for a cold engine to stay at this high of rpm specially with thick cold oil. I would avoid punching the TGP or any NA GP as there are the same cold timing cut back parameters in those NA chips as well, if you really need to get on it to move into traffic, then lift off the pedal and let it shift sooner then ease the pedal back down. In the TGP chips I sell, I approach this cold boost and timing hold back a little different so there is not such a chance to stay stuck revving at such a high rpm when cold, as with any engine building or designing book I have read, its really not an increase in power that taxes an engine, its high or too high of rpms that do harm, and the 3.1L is a torque motor and does not have anything to offer past 5,200 rpms so no need to go there. Jeff M Quote
Robby1870 Posted April 18, 2003 Report Posted April 18, 2003 Hey Jeff M, thats good to know, thats really good stuff. You dont make any chips for N/A 3.1Ls? I know fastfwdperformance.com does, but I was wondering if you do. And, even if you dont, do you know how much of a power gain is possible on a N/A 3.1L from a chip? Dont wanna waste my money on something thats not gonna do anything for me. Thanks for any insight. Robby Quote
Chinski Posted April 23, 2003 Author Report Posted April 23, 2003 Well, its been a couple weeks now and the problem has not happened. After reading all this I would guess my TV cable was sticking. I dunno, but it fixed itself. We have even had some cold days (and snow/ice) and no problem. Maybe it wasn't temperature related after all and the cable just had to loosen up. Could have had some snow/ice/sand (they use sand instead of salt up here) caked on there or something? Yeah, like I said, the fluid/filter were changed in early January, still fresh and full. Well, thanks for all the ideas, I know much more about this tranny now. About the selenoids...are they there or not? I did pull a plug with 5 wires so that makes me think they are all there, not just the one for the TC lockup, but that seems like that would classify this tranny electronic. Or is the electronic one something more than that? Quote
Black Pheonix Posted April 24, 2003 Report Posted April 24, 2003 mine won't shift at wot no matter what, and the rpms have climbed higher than 5500 without shifting, as soon as i realized what happend i let of course but I know now and watch for it. I would like to know how you adjust the cable and where to find it at if anybody knows, at least it would eliminate one possiblily. Unless you think the not shifting is all in the chip? Thanks Quote
Robby1870 Posted April 24, 2003 Report Posted April 24, 2003 Well, its been a couple weeks now and the problem has not happened. After reading all this I would guess my TV cable was sticking. I dunno, but it fixed itself. We have even had some cold days (and snow/ice) and no problem. Maybe it wasn't temperature related after all and the cable just had to loosen up. Could have had some snow/ice/sand (they use sand instead of salt up here) caked on there or something? Yeah, like I said, the fluid/filter were changed in early January, still fresh and full. Well, thanks for all the ideas, I know much more about this tranny now. About the selenoids...are they there or not? I did pull a plug with 5 wires so that makes me think they are all there, not just the one for the TC lockup, but that seems like that would classify this tranny electronic. Or is the electronic one something more than that? Yes there are solenoids, and yes the TC lockup is computer controlled. However, the actual shifting is not computer controlled, its controlled by engine vacuum. Robby Quote
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