EDIT PMIII fixed.. but still another problem

[kuntzie]

ok so i fixed the PM# unit, the plugs attaching to the bottom of the unit was loose therefor the pump wouldnot work.... all good now and stops on a dime... alright the other problem i was having is the break lights staying on, i replace the plactic unit that activate the lights but that didnt help... any suggestions?

Jeff

[digitaloutsider]

Someone on this forum did it. I personally wouldn't want to imagine the process..

[pwmin]

fuck the tgp section. jk. not sure, but why cant you convert to 95+abs? more?

 

oh, no offense but its vacuum

[Crazy K]

Do it! It may seem overwhelming, but I enjoy stopping! I did on my 91 CS convertable. I got all used parts:

The junk yard I go to they drop the frame off of cars, thats a good place to start for ease of access! (but not necesary)

I used an abs type system from a later car (94 lumina with a 3.4) right now it runs as a normal system, but soon I'll get the abs wires all wired in.

 

You must get the smaller vacuum boost from a car with a 3.1, but not 3100, I don't know the size of 95 up 3.4 boosters, but mine was from the a 94 booster, the same as a 3.1's)

you need to get the firewall plate, the brake pedal assembly w the pedal, the MC, and I reused original OEM brake lines on my application from the donor vehicle as they were rust free.

 

You will need to remove the dash, the steering column and the HVAC unit from the donor vehicle to get the pedal assembly out, and the firewall plate. I'd guess it took me 4 hours to get the parts.

 

On my vehicle I cheated, but I feel it is safe... after removing the dash and column, I cut the brake booster portion from the donor firewall plate, and cut a circular hole in the exact center of the pushrod hole in the retrofit vehicle's firewall plate, the size of the hole. With the vaccum pedal assembly installed (the through bolt will stick through into the engine compartment, and one hole on the retrofits vehicl must be oblongated about 1/4 inch to do so) the cut out from the doner firewall slides onto the through bolts from the pedal assembly and tightens to the firewall fine. I used plenty of JB weld on the contact surfaces for strength and to keep out future rust.

The donor vacuum booster teist on and off and

 

You must also disconnect the ABS computer located beneath the passenger seat, and I pulled my abs indicator bulb for now, until I can finish the project, but for now, the car stops!

 

-Ken

p.s. the time is will take varies depending how good you are at doing this type of stuff, but it took me about 2 weeks with hand tools. It would have been alot faster with a grinder or cut off tool. So I hope it's not your primary vehicle. May I also recommend upgrading to 94+ rear brakes if you haven't done so already, as well?

[kuntzie]

ok so im learning not that the solid red ligh could be caused by theABS pressure switch.. ( the brakes are real bad BTW... work on occasion properly, dont seem to want to pump up

 

what does this switch look like?

[Crazy K]

O crap, I haven't talked you out of it, have I? I know it's alot of work, but it's well worth doing. I know others have done it, but it does take time, meaning it can't be your primary vehicle. -Ken

[Bossman429]

http://www.tpsgarage.com/TGP/brakes/powermaster.htm#Conversion

Here is a little write up Chris A has on his site.

[GutlessSupreme]

I still say that my PM3 stops the TSTE 1000x better than the Cutlass and it's vacuum brakes will EVER stop that car. I've almost gotten into 3 accidents just getting used to the Cutlass brakes again in the past few days. They SUCK, and that's with the 96+ front rotor upgrade, year old rotors/pads in the front and 3 month old rotors/pads in the rear.

[Guest TurboSedan]

i'm the opposite my Cutlass brakes ROCK! my Cutlass stops very very well; i love it. on the other hand my TSTE brakes are soooo horrible i would not even consider driving the car. i got a new Prior accumulator which hopefully fixes the problem.....and the rear calipers were seized; evident by the very very rusty rear rotors. new rear brakes ('94+) and new accumulator and the car will hopefully feel safe again.

 

i thought about going to vacuum brakes but i think it's too much trouble, ecspecially when it means you are downgrading the brake system. on the other hand PMIII is expensive to fix....if i need a new PMIII master cylinder i might consider going to vacuum brakes. either way....my Turbo STE will be getting '95+ front brakes and '94+ rear brakes very soon.

[skalor]

I'm in the process of switching my TGP over to vacuum brakes but I've only accumlated the parts so far and I have:

New GM master cylinder

Used Brake Booster

Used brake Hardlines

Used Firewall plate

 

My TGP never really stopped well and it always bothered me. Right now, it runs on every pedal press and I could probably fix it with a new accumlator. I got a New GM Master Cylinder for $21 and the rest of the parts for ~$20 so I should be fixed at less than 1/2 the cost of the accumulator and it will never cause problems again.

[GnatGoSplat]

You can't use the newer ABS on the TGP because the modulator will interfere with the downpipe. I know someone (forget his name) that went to all the trouble to swap it, only when he had it tore down did he discover ABS VI wouldn't fit.

 

The only way you can convert to vacuum brakes and still have ABS is to use a remotely mounted modulator like the Bosch 5.3 or DBC7 used in newer W's. If you did that, you'd obviously need all custom brake lines.

[pwmin]

ah. still would want abs for daily driver, but then again it is a lot of work.

 

pm3 works great (when it it does)...kinda like the 3.4X hehe

[gp90se]

I cant stand ABS, at all. my 90 SE outstopped my 90 TGP by yards. the conversion doesnt look to bad, but having to run new brake lines wont be fun.

[pwmin]

i just hate having to pulsate the pedal myself. abs does a better job than i can

[Crazy K]

GutlessSupreme, are you running with the 94+ brake upgrade? That makes all the difference. Seriously. period.

 

skalor, where'd you get the MC that cheap?

 

GnatGoSplat, I have used the abs mc from a 94 lumina, on my 91 cutlass convertable. although the abs portion is not wired in yet, it did fit fine, and currently gives my regular brakes. The hubs are all abs hubs, and I have already rerouted the lines that used to go to the original abc computer beneath the passenger seat.

But to get it done, I had to slightly bend the fuel lines toward the passenger side slightly, as well as a metal line that I believe is the fuel vapor return line. What is the downpipe you mention, is it turbo GP only? pics????

 

I reused all the hard lines off a donor car, they weren't too hard to install, but I recommend lowering the rear portion of the frame to route them in place.

Note...

that the right rear line past the union block was identical,

and for the front right line, I used a steel union from NAPA to connect the existing hardline to about 6 inches of donor hardline to make the connection. She stops, but she still needs front pads and rotors.

[Crazy K]

for the rear 94+ brakes read:

http://www.w-body.com/upgrades/brakes-rearcalipers94.html

http://www.tpsgarage.com/TGP/brakes/rear_brake_upgrade.htm

note that I have done this twice, and used all used parts. I did have to check several cars and found donors with new brake jobs

[GutlessSupreme]

GutlessSupreme, are you running with the 94+ brake upgrade? That makes all the difference. Seriously. period.

 

No, and I've heard that it doesn't make that much of a difference anyway, actual brake-power-wise.

 

I've come to realize over the past few days that the Cutlass isn't THAT bad.. just need the pads to warm up before they'll do jack shit (semi-metallic). Otherwise they just slide over the rotors.

[GnatGoSplat]

GnatGoSplat, I have used the abs mc from a 94 lumina, on my 91 cutlass convertable. although the abs portion is not wired in yet, it did fit fine, and currently gives my regular brakes. The hubs are all abs hubs, and I have already rerouted the lines that used to go to the original abc computer beneath the passenger seat.

But to get it done, I had to slightly bend the fuel lines toward the passenger side slightly, as well as a metal line that I believe is the fuel vapor return line. What is the downpipe you mention, is it turbo GP only? pics????

 

Yeah, it's turbo only. The downpipe is the pipe from turbocharger outlet to exhaust pipe.

[Crazy K]

I'm sorry i wasn't aware of that... But if you can find an external unit, OR remotely mount the abs unit..... (could you run tubes from the mc to the unit? I know it would be difficult, I don't remeber if there are any connections that arn't thread) you already have the abs hubs and much of the wiring to make it work. If jay leno had ABS installed on his 66' Tornado we should be able to too!

 

GutlessSupreme, the rear brakes tend to create drag, are less reliable anyhow, and so much more work to maintain. Just compare the parking brake for instance, it really is stronger, and it's not just the difference between the foot pedal assembly, as I haven't changed those yet... but i will try to soon. I've seen remarkable improvement in both my swaps. Of course everything else must also be in working order too.

discussion:

http://www.w-body.com/forum/viewtopic.phrp?t=34359

http://www.w-body.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34323

[94CutlassSLCoupe]

GutlessSupreme, are you running with the 94+ brake upgrade? That makes all the difference. Seriously. period.

 

No, and I've heard that it doesn't make that much of a difference anyway, actual brake-power-wise.

 

I've come to realize over the past few days that the Cutlass isn't THAT bad.. just need the pads to warm up before they'll do jack shit (semi-metallic). Otherwise they just slide over the rotors.

 

Going from my '94 CS 3100, obviously with the newer rear brakes to the '90 Quad 4 with the old brakes (calipers, rotors and pads in the rear are brand new), I can say that the '94 is SOOO much better its amazing...the quad kinda sucks unless you are downshifting at least into 3rd to get some compression braking. Yeah, Manual Transmissions rock (except in the snow )

[GnatGoSplat]

I'm sorry i wasn't aware of that... But if you can find an external unit, OR remotely mount the abs unit..... (could you run tubes from the mc to the unit? I know it would be difficult, I don't remeber if there are any connections that arn't thread) you already have the abs hubs and much of the wiring to make it work. If jay leno had ABS installed on his 66' Tornado we should be able to too!

 

Yeah, you can definitely use an external ABS like the models I mentioned before. They're pretty small, compact, and self-contained. All you have to do is find a place to mount it, construct some kind of bracket for mounting, run custom brake lines, and wire it up. That in addition to swapping the firewall plate and installing the vacuum booster and MC. Still sounds like quite a bit of work!

[Crazy K]

No one said it wasn't, but we all like to stop, right? bad brakes are like russian roulette, except you never win.(The Deer Hunter )

I do agree, that the first time you use the semi-Metallic brakes when cold they are a bit weak, but a quick brake check in the parking lot and they're Ready to go. A brake system flush would help though -Ken

[digitaloutsider]

My PM3 throws me through the windshield. No way in fuck I'd go back to plain first-gen W-body brakes, 94-96 upgrade or not. Face it, they suck.

[Prospeeder]

My PM3 throws me through the windshield. No way in fuck I'd go back to plain first-gen W-body brakes, 94-96 upgrade or not. Face it, they suck.

Really, the PM3 is an amazing brake system, it delevers antilock very well and keeps you from skidding on compact snow, and it does practicly throw you through the windshield! when i had my cracked and warped rotors and soo hard to brake, i shove that thing to the floor and ur face about hits the steering wheel, thank god for the seat belts No with my brand new brakes, oh jeese, that thing just slams to a stop

[GnatGoSplat]

My PMIII doesn't work very well. It's kind of like up to 90% pedal travel there's almost zero braking. Then the last 10% it's like 100% braking. It makes for very scary stops. The pump runs every single time I step on the brakes and the yellow ABS light often comes on, so I think the accumulator is dead.

 

Think if I replaced the accumulator, the PMIII would actually be a good system?

I know the PMIII is over-engineered, but if it can be made to work well and reliably fairly inexpensively, there's really no reason to spend that much effort to replace it.