LukeZ34 Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 I thought the red TGP was quirky.. The black one is even worse. So it's been acting strange for a long time now. It will idle high, not all the time, only some of the time, particularly when it's cold, but it also happens after it's been driven for a while. This can be a problem, especially when the car is in gear and it takes mucho effort on the brake pedal to keep the car from moving. I've also seen times where the idle will spike or drop 200-500 RPM rapidly, but then go away just as fast as it started happening. This has happened while driving also. The problem above is fixed by unplugging the battery, and reconnecting it 10-15 minutes later. After that, the car does NOT have any problem running for (usually) a month or so. After that, it starts acting up again just out of the blue. Another note of concern is how the transmission shifts. The 1-2 Shift is most often firm and hard.. Almost too hard for it to be comfortable. All of the other shifts are fine, but OD seems to have a stutter in it from time to time. Keep in mind that the tranny was rebuilt 2.5 years ago, and for an unknown time was running with NO check valve on the vacuum modulator thanks to the Previous owner. Could this have damaged the modulator in some way? Also, when you shift from park to reverse, or reverse to drive, you get a loud "clunk" that comes from the drivers side of the car. Lower motor and tranny mounts are new, as well as new dogbones. Upon leaving for work this morning, I decided to drag the laptop with me to log my driving, and so you pros could see how the car is acting. Below are the datamaster files that I recorded, most of them are around 500K in size. Also note that near the end of the 'TGPmorning' file, the car died upon pulling in to the parking stall at work and putting it in to park. It's been doing this lately as well. http://home.lukez34.com/datamaster/tgpmorning.uni http://home.lukez34.com/datamaster/drivetobankandhome.uni http://home.lukez34.com/datamaster/drivetowork.uni We just need to get this thing running halfway decently since I need to take the Samurai out of commission for a while to replace the transmission on it. These little grimlins that the TGP is having have got me baffled. Any ideas are appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Hey Luke, sorry to hear the black one giving your fits. Do me a favor, save the run in .scv format instead of .uni. I think you can do this as another owner with the same logger was able to do this, then I can look at it in Excel 8) . First off, and I will digest this some and come up with more ideas later, alternator output might be low, the tables in the chip will kick up the rpms to try and compensate for an alternator with a weak output. Even bad grounds will fool the computer into thinking a good alternator is weak. Have you done the injectors yet? They can cause things to struggle like this. The usual suck on the FPR to make sure its not leaking. Did not hear your state-of-tune? Does this one have the Rapid Fire #8 I sold you? If so they can wear at the tip pretty fast, might not be thee problem but something to know about...035" is the gap for just those plugs. Good to look at them anyways to get an idea of how things are running, front plugs are easy and a good start, not the backs unless we can't find the problem elsewhere. A hanging PCV Valve can cause an erratic idle and stalling. As for the tranny shift, that is common for normal rebuilds, everyone gets a firm/too firm 2nd gear shift but 3rd is never as firm, and adjusting the tranny vacuum modulator to get 2nd to be nice, makes 3rd even softer If you have an adjustable modulator then turn the screw out one turn to make 2nd better to live with. I would also still check that the vacuum lines are good as well as the one going to the tranny, might have fallen off :oops: , and a vacuum leak might not help the rpm issues and stalling, and for sure a leak to the vac modulator will give a nasty loud clunk when shifting!! And no problem with it being run without a check valve, will not hurt the vacuum mod, may have loosened up some braces or engine mounts like the one at the motor mount to head where the bolts that go into the head can get loose. I have a recent post for someone that was long on all the possible "clunk" causes. I know these are ideas you know all about too just hoping for an easy fix 8) Well, I will do some more thinking, shoot out an .csv so I got some good logging to help troubleshoot Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted October 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Ok.. Got 1 .csv uploaded. Datamaster makes you choose which data items to export, and each time you have to re-select those items.. It's a pain in the ass, so I'll get you the other runs here in a bit. http://home.lukez34.com/datamaster/Drivetowork.csv The charging voltage is weak, I noticed that today. It's in the mid 13 Volt range, but it hangs around the mid 11 volt range when the engine is off. So I think the battery is getting kind of weak. I also noticed that the TPS voltage and % sits at 7.5% and .80 volts at idle.. Is that normal? If it's not, that's probably the cause of the high idle. We haven't touched the injectors since shortly after we bought it and replaced that one bad one. I haven't checked the FPR yet, but it was good last time I did check it. The car is running R42LTS plugs. I'll pull the plugs this weekend if we get a chance. Vacuum lines on the tranny are good, that I know for a fact. Speaking of that, Vacuum lines are something that NEED replaced on this car. I don't think we have any leaks, but with the hack job the PO did on this car, they need replaced. What was the part# for the T3.1 Vacuum line kit from GM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Thanks Luke for the extra work on the .csv Did not see a stall, that would be the only other one to see BUT I think you beat me to the fix , TPS should read 0% when foot is off the gas pedal!!!! The scanner will convert TPS mv to % so I don't worry much about the mv, but for sure the %TPS is wrong and will cause problems! Your alternator is fine from what I see, it was doing 13.7 forever and that is excellent , don't need to see 14.1-14.4 volts unless the battery is asking for that much of a charge, even with a good alternator and battery you can see 12.1 to 12.8 when the battery is doing some work with the fan and headlight and brakelights on when idling 8) . Did not see it but when the volts while running or idling get less than 11.5 or so is when the chip will up the rpm, the lower the alternator output the more the IAC gets kicked out to increase the engine rpms, but that runs show good so no worries mate!! Cannot tell for sure from the logged runs, but a slow sample rate could be the logger or PC but did not see the o2 volts swinging as low as I am use to seeing, but on other scan tools the o2 volts swing as they do in Closed-Loop from as low as double-digits (12mv to 90mv) to a high of 700-800+mv. BUT not sure if you actually have a lazy/bad o2 sensor. As for the complete vacuum line assembly for the Turbo 3.1L, still offered and the part number 10114903 retails for all of $25 8) Hope this does ya .....well you did it actually (i.e. TPS%) EDIT: TPS Part Number is: 17106680 abour $30. And 0% TPS should be .57mv or less. Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 A quick update.. The car has been sitting for 3+weeks now because it developed a misfire. I finally got a chance to look it over tonight. I got the TPS Voltage down to .61 and the % to 0. The TB just needed cleaned and the TPS sensor adjusted slightly. One thing I noticed is that the the stopper screw for the throttle linkage has been tampered with in the past. There is no cap covering it up as my old TGP had. After checking all the plugs only to find them all tanish brown as they should be, I buttoned everything back up. Fired the car up with the scanner running only to find it still misfiring. This is a constant misfire, and resembles a chugging sound from the exhaust. I used a timing light to check all the plug wires for spark, and all of them checked out ok, all of them with consistant spark. Where is this misfire coming from? Bad injector(s) maybe? Here is the .csv file from tonight. You'll notice that I shut the car off a couple of times while it was recording. http://home.lukez34.com/datamaster/after%20working%20on%20tgp.csv Help me get this thing back on the road! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Took the UIM off tonight, and found one injector at 11.4 ohms.. All of the other injectors are 12.1 - 12.4 ohms. Could this be the misfire culprit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockTherapy Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 that'd be my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossman429 Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 If you're getting a verified spark across all 6 wires, then it should be a fuel related misfire. That injector may be your culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 That's what I'm thinking too. Anyone got a used (but good) T3.1 injector? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 So would a GP Sorensen Injector from Advance be a good replacement? http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=GPS&mfrpartnumber=8001099N&parttype=677&ptset=A I know I've read that 'aftermarket' branded injectors may not be the proper flow rate for the T3.1 even if they are listed for that motor. Anyone had any experiences with that brand of injectors in the T3.1? I'd much rather pick one of these up since I can get them here. I just thought I'd ask before I buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 So would a GP Sorensen Injector from Advance be a good replacement? http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=GPS&mfrpartnumber=8001099N&parttype=677&ptset=A I know I've read that 'aftermarket' branded injectors may not be the proper flow rate for the T3.1 even if they are listed for that motor. Anyone had any experiences with that brand of injectors in the T3.1? I'd much rather pick one of these up since I can get them here. I just thought I'd ask before I buy. Not sure about those injectors being any good or not...but I did look on the partsamerica site and they listed the same number turbo vs. NA. BTW, the stock injector part # is 17086651 and they list for $66.71 from GMPartsdirect in case you want to go OEM. I got the number off the netavalanche board and it's also listed on autozones site(autozone has the OEM number listed with the GP Sorensen injectors they offer. The GP Sorensen number on autozones website is 8001029N) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Took the UIM off tonight, and found one injector at 11.4 ohms.. All of the other injectors are 12.1 - 12.4 ohms. Could this be the misfire culprit? General rule of thumb...anything under 11.9 is BAD or coming very close to failing. Jeff M has some injectors for a pretty good price. I would not under any circumstance put anything other than GM OEM parts on a TGP motor if you want it to run properly for more than 2 months! Especially injectors! 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Yea, this is why I posted for comments before I bought something that could cause more damage to the car. I Pm'd Jeff about an injector. Hopefully I can get this car running soon. Thanks for the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99RegalGS Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Luke, to help with your search for an injector. You can also use L27 and L36 3800 injectors. They are rated at 22lbs per hour as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 I got some old injectors. they got 150 k on them but I will test some for you if you need a good 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Thanks, but I picked up that fuel rail on ebay (after someone bid the price up! ) . Hopefully at least one of those 6 are good. It's always good to have parts lying around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 Well, got the fuel rail w/ the injectors today.. 4 of them tested at 11.8Ohms ,and 2 tested at 12.0 Ohms.. Hopefully the 12ohm ones will be good enough to get the car back on it's feet until I can replace all of those little bastards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Injector didn't fix it, and replacing the gas soaked plug didn't fix it either. Bad coil perhaps? This is getting irritating.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 I'm on my way out there with $2500...just give me the car and I will take on the headaches! Might be the used injector is plugged with crap also. Did the part #'s match on the injectors? Now you said you had a gas soaked plug? Before or after the injector swap? You may have a bad plug wire that is not firing the plug or not enough current to give full spark. You may also have constant or leakage voltage going to that injector harness causing it to open more than it should. What flights come to Hays again??? 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 The plug was soaked before the injector swap, which is why it wasn't firing AFTER the injector was swapped. I'm going to check out the plug wire too. I got the Bosch kit from advance a long time ago, and I've already had one of them break on me, maybe this one is shot too. If all else fails, I'll pull the coils off again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGPilot Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Bosch Advance I would look into the plugs and get the right ones along with the right wires from GM. I can get them for you for 10% over cost from my dealership contact if you would like. Let me know...Kenny 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 last week when i had bad plug wires causing a misfire, all of my spark plugs looked the same (they all looked great). the only time i've ever had wet gas on a plug was when one of the plugs was cracked. i'd look over all of your plugs closely for hairline cracks. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeZ34 Posted November 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Yea, I've had to deal with a cracked plug before, but I know all of them are in good shape. The one Bosch wire that broke on me, happens to be the same cylinder that isn't firing properly (#4). I replaced the broken wire with the extra Delco one I had laying in the garage. Maybe I'll try another plug wire, see if that cures the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Powered Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 you can loom all the wires individually. Thats what I did to eliminate the possibility of them grounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I leaned on my car if you pull the plug wire by any other place ..other than the boot...your going to demage or teare the inner core. The only way to know is to ohm the wires. Then ohm the coils. And send your ICM to get tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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