why is spinning tires hard on the tranny?

[mfewtrail]

 

Throwing out Kevwood's BS numbers, I had the 4th highest DOHC power output we have seen, and the 2nd fastest 1/4mi we have seen:

1)TimG-263whp

2)Short Runner intake guy-240whp

3)Z34 nut-218.8whp 14.5 or 6?

4)My old car-218.6whp 14.78

 

 

How are kevwood's numbers "bs?"

 

 

Also, what did that first guy that made headers run a long time ago in his Lumina? There's a "14.1" claim as well by a member here, another member says he witnessed the time(Grand Prix coupe w/ a NA DOHC/4T60-E).

 

 

EDIT: "1993 Lumina Z34 5 Speed

54,000 Original Kilometers

Pics coming soon!!!

Latest Pass -- 14.2 @ 94 Mph"

 

^w/ nitrous and a few other mods("Mike93Z34" on here....)

[Aaron]

How are kevwood's numbers "bs?"

 

 

Also, what did that first guy that made headers run a long time ago in his Lumina? There's a "14.1" claim as well by a member here, another member says he witnessed the time(Grand Prix coupe w/ a NA DOHC/4T60-E).

 

Kevwood and I have gotten into it many times before. Basically, there is not 257whp to be had from head work and tuning.

 

He made 198whp with a bone stock 3.4. Does this dyno sound accurate to you?

 

To put that in perspective, there has NEVER been a 3.4 that we know of to break 180whp stock. In addition, most don't break 170. But the 5-speed will allow for about 10whp higher. My bone stock 1992 Z34 5-speed has a BRAND NEW crate engine, and it runs perfect, in fact I have never felt a 3.4 that runs better. It made 178whp, and is the highest stock dyno yet. He made almost 20whp MORE, with a used motor. So it had a number of miles on it. 20whp is A LOT. There is quite simply no way a stock 3.4 can make more than 180whp, I want to say its nearly impossible.

 

Secondly, the heads already flow so much that porting the shit out of them isn't going to do anything. The heads aren't the restriction, the intakes, exhaust manis, and cams are. Porting the exhaust portion of the head will have benefits, but not that much. Now if he had a custom intake, headers, and cams, then head work is the next step. But for stock everything, the heads are as good as they need to be. They already flow 270/180. These are damn respectable numbers, but the exhaust could use some help.

 

Third, his curve did not look like anything from a 3.4. It had gracious low end power, and it kept pulling until redline. Factory, power drops HARD after 5500rpm. I'm sorry, but P/P heads alone are not going to totally change the curve. In addition, he also had good low end torque, much more than it would have gotten factory. Now how you add a lot of low end, and high end, and totally change the curve for the motor with just heads is beyond me.

 

Let's look at his 1/4mi times, and compare them to mine.

 

He ran a 14.95 at 92.98, and a 14.88 @ 93.24. For having 257whp, this sucks. 257whp should be a mid 13 second car. Ironically, I beat him. My mods were intake, exhaust, chip, and UD pulley. I'm guessing it was at 180-190whp max. I ran a 14.78 @ 92.68. His 60' times were both better than mine, WAY better. His were 2.2 and 2.3. My best 60' that day was a 2.388, so basically a 2.4. Now tell me, how can I be down 70whp, get beat off the line by 2 tenths (A LOT), and still manage to beat him through the 1/4mi?

 

The dyno they use has issues. It isn't a Dynojet, it is a Mustang. Traditionally these read lower, but in his case, it is reading MUCH higher. I don't care how bad you suck at driving, 257whp, with a 2.2 60', should be a 13.5, not a 14.95. There have been stock Z34s beat his 1/4mi time.

 

 

The other guy with headers was John, aka KickinZ. I've met him before I built my headers, and at the time he was running stock manifolds. He dropped from a 14.9 to a 14.3 with the headers, but he never ran a 14.1. The 14.3 was his best, but the ehaders had to be removed becuz they scraped the road, and he was breaking CV axles. Mine helped a lot, but not that much, as the headers with every other mod totally threw the car's tuning to shit and back. With tuning I'm sure mine added nearly the smae as his, probably a bit more.

[futuretgper]

Well I have a slight inkling that IT'S FUCKING SARCASM.

 

Well, it was really FUCKING subtle then, because two mods didn't pick up on it.

 

Well I figured it was obvious considering he used exclamation points (sometimes multiple) after every sentence, words like n00blar, and talked about Aaron not knowing how to make a DOHC fast when he's got (I believe) the fastest N/A DOHC on the board (or did until Tony got it) and pretty much everyone knows that.

 

But I have no idea.

 

 

haha.....oooops......yeah that was all sarcasm about aaron noing nothing about making a 3.4 fast, i know hes not newbie......but i don't see him as a very productive member!

[futuretgper]

Well I have a slight inkling that IT'S FUCKING SARCASM.

 

Well, it was really FUCKING subtle then, because two mods didn't pick up on it.

 

Well I figured it was obvious considering he used exclamation points (sometimes multiple) after every sentence, words like n00blar, and talked about Aaron not knowing how to make a DOHC fast when he's got (I believe) the fastest N/A DOHC on the board (or did until Tony got it) and pretty much everyone knows that.

 

But I have no idea.

 

 

haha.....oooops......yeah that was all sarcasm about aaron knowing nothing about making a 3.4 fast, i know hes not newbie......but i don't see him as a very productive member! wow suprise....the mods couldn't take a joke (or get that it was joke)!! although im not sure why anyone would stick up for aaron hes dug such a friggin deap hole on the forum....not to mention the excess bridge burning on his behalf!! well i guess the mods gotta try to be even....theres nothing to gain by standing up for him! i think he likes it this way......all vs him......keeps him going.....i almost respect that......if he weren't such a skunk ape! anyone know him personaly....id be willing to bet hes not as bad as he sounds on the net!

[MonteC]

on topic:

 

from a stand still spinning the tires puts a shock on the drive train, for and instant a shock wave is sent back to the transmission thru the drive train, and yes over time it will break something if you do it constanly.

 

as for the one wheel thing, no matter how many wheels spin it has the same affect, two wheels just makes it a little worse.

 

clutch dropping is BAD, no two ways around it. when you drop the cluth you put a MAJOR shock on your drive train. pull a clutch out of a car that has been clutch dropped repeatedly and you may see cracks and broken dampener springs on the clutch disk. and cars with more power will do more damage to the drive train when you do clutch drops.

[Canada]

There is a lot of bullshit in this thread that no one cares about.

 

 

Burnouts, racing, normal driving is all hard on a car......but when doing the smoke show, I view it harder on the differental than the transmission.

 

Reason? When you have an open diff (like most FWD cars have)....the one wheel thing IS bad.....power gets sent to the wheel with the least amount of resistance. When one wheel is spinning, and the other is at a stand still, the spider gears are spinning....although designed to spin so you can go around a corner smoothly, they don't like to spin at a high rate of speed that us assoicated with big smokey burnouts. They pretty much ride on a shaft....they don't have nice big bearings to ride on. They WILL break and take the nearest exit when they decide to fail. Remember, with an open diff and a one wheel of fury, that wheel is spinning at TWICE the sped that it normally would, due to the multiplication effect of the spider gears.

 

All of this sounds like a very good reason to go get a clutch type diff.

[MonteC]

There is a lot of bullshit in this thread that no one cares about.

 

 

Burnouts, racing, normal driving is all hard on a car......but when doing the smoke show, I view it harder on the differental than the transmission.

 

Reason? When you have an open diff (like most FWD cars have)....the one wheel thing IS bad.....power gets sent to the wheel with the least amount of resistance. When one wheel is spinning, and the other is at a stand still, the spider gears are spinning....although designed to spin so you can go around a corner smoothly, they don't like to spin at a high rate of speed that us assoicated with big smokey burnouts. They pretty much ride on a shaft....they don't have nice big bearings to ride on. They WILL break and take the nearest exit when they decide to fail. Remember, with an open diff and a one wheel of fury, that wheel is spinning at TWICE the sped that it normally would, due to the multiplication effect of the spider gears.

 

All of this sounds like a very good reason to go get a clutch type diff.

 

posi traction, or limited slip differential

[Canada]

Thats the same thing.

[patgizz]

Thats the same thing.

 

not to be a prick, but not all limited slip diffs are clutch types

[MonteC]

Thats the same thing.

 

i was just defining what you typed, some people need it simplified. no offense to anybody.

[Canada]

Thats the same thing.

 

not to be a prick, but not all limited slip diffs are clutch types

 

I didn't say there were.

 

However, all posi-trac diffs ARE limited slips.

[19Cutlass94]

But wouldnt a posi still put alot of stress on the tranny? just not so much the diff.

 

But especially in winter, its known that your gonna spin your tires, but if its on snow or ice, I cant imagine it would be bad, since the friction is soo much less (like tires and blacktop v tires and snow and ice) Because during the winter, when theres snow on the ground, I spin the tires everytime I go out.

 

And another thing that I still cant understand is why I spin the tires on the white strips on the road, you know like the crosswalks and shit, I dont even try.

 

But I can understand all the stress and everything if your spinning on blacktop or conrete, but snow and ice I dont think is the same, just because of the different frictions. Correct me if Im wrong.

 

But when tranny fails from spinning the tires and such, what exactly are the parts that fail?(besides the diff)

[JoroCorona]

Mainly your differential is going to be the culprit. When the tire looses traction on an open differential vehicle, the spiders are going to spin far faster then they were ever designed. This creates Friction, which creates heat, which could either lead to A) Failure and the spider looking for the nearest exit, or Seizing of the spider to the shaft or case of the diff. This is not quite as horrible as the spider breaking, however you just made your open diff a locker. There is no differential action as your go around turns, leaving you with a binding drivetrain.

 

You might strip out intermediate shafts or even the planitary gearsets, but you will more then likely kill the diff first.

[Aaron]

Mainly your differential is going to be the culprit. When the tire looses traction on an open differential vehicle, the spiders are going to spin far faster then they were ever designed. This creates Friction, which creates heat, which could either lead to A) Failure and the spider looking for the nearest exit, or Seizing of the spider to the shaft or case of the diff. This is not quite as horrible as the spider breaking, however you just made your open diff a locker. There is no differential action as your go around turns, leaving you with a binding drivetrain.

 

You might strip out intermediate shafts or even the planitary gearsets, but you will more then likely kill the diff first.

 

Well I have laid more smoke in my Z34 than anyone couldhave ever imagined, and both of its transmissions havn't had a problem (Related to the burnouts). I have also done my fair share of burnouts in my red Z34, and it too is fine. But both of my Z34s have always spun both tires. Not 100% equally, the passeneger tire liked to smoke up a bit more most often, but they would both smoke.

 

Also, how are the spider gears moving faster when you are doing a burnout? If the motor is at 7000rpm, the tranny is spinning at the same rate whether you'r spinning the tires, redlining first, or redlining 4th am I wrong? I could understand it being bad on them becuz there is less of a load, but it seems like 7000rpm is 7000rpm to me.

[Canada]

Its not based on engine rpm.......its based on a difference inbetween speeds of the left and right wheels.

 

Burnouts by themselves are fine......I do it too. Its when you do it going around a corner like a lot of punk assholes like to do....with an open diff, that sends ALL the power to the inside wheel......good for smoke, bad for car.

[Aaron]

Its not based on engine rpm.......its based on a difference inbetween speeds of the left and right wheels.

 

Burnouts by themselves are fine......I do it too. Its when you do it going around a corner like a lot of punk assholes like to do....with an open diff, that sends ALL the power to the inside wheel......good for smoke, bad for car.

 

Canada you're not too smart. It's cool to do burnouts around corners in a FWD. The way it stops turning and aims right for the curb, and in order to not hit the curb, you have to stop the burnout, and turn. Looks really cool...

 

I've only done it once or twice, and was so embarrassed that I'd never do it again...But when I did do it, it didn't even make much smoke. IIRC both of my tires were spinning, though obviously not at the same rate. I'd think if you'r eoutside wasn't that it'll still track around the corner, and mine didn't. But neither tire rolled any noticable smoke. My best burnouts were sitting still and dropping the clutch. Smoke would isntantly start rolling from the fenders, and a few seconds alter it'd pull out of it and leave a nice series of barks into 2nd.

[Canada]

I find its best to be traveling backward....then to drop the clutch in first.....my 245 mm wide Kuhmo 711s will produce smoke that will come out of the A/C vents.

[Aaron]

I find its best to be traveling backward....then to drop the clutch in first.....my 245 mm wide Kuhmo 711s will produce smoke that will come out of the A/C vents.

 

I never got smoke out the AC vents, but it would start to go out the louvers (No splash guards). That looked pretty fucking sweet