Jeff M's Engine info- Jeff M, Please post specs here :)

[LukeZ34]

.....are you sure your clutch was really that bad?

 

Yea, it is. I can vouch.

[TGPilot]

.....are you sure your clutch was really that bad?

 

Yea, it is. I can vouch.

 

It is a 3 year old centerforce clutch that didn't want to hold the power to start with when installed...so to race on it now is just plane DUMB!

 

To discontinue the high-jacking I started a new thread with my numbers at Bandimere...

 

http://www.w-body.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=418254#418254

[TurboGTU]

I won't belive myself if I have 350hp, or mid 12s. My turbo says I have 450+ hp..but my pistons and map sensor say otherwise. We shal see. See..this is why we turbo 60* people should have a meet down South instead of the Chicago , Michigan side . I think its time to shine up the wheels and have a meet next spring with a little track time and dyno time. Im game. 8)

[Jeff M]

I won't belive myself if I have 350hp, or mid 12s. My turbo says I have 450+ hp..but my pistons and map sensor say otherwise. We shal see. See..this is why we turbo 60* people should have a meet down South instead of the Chicago , Michigan side . I think its time to shine up the wheels and have a meet next spring with a little track time and dyno time. Im game. 8)

 

Umm (in a ribbing ya voice and some info for others reading that are still learning turbos and engines) that reply from a quite literate turbo/engine guy? :? . You know that even though a 2bar map can only read 15 psi of boost, that boost is not the measure of hp, boost has only a little to do with air flow/hp as its only a measure of air pressure backing up in the engine, which in any engine is the reading of air trying to get through the intake but more so the heads/valves and valve events-cam as these are the major restriction in any engine :!: . Open up the intake and work the heads with a good cam and the same output from a turbo that once read 10 psi on a stock engine will now read much less boost (estimating 6 to 8 psi), and make more power as the engine is an air pump and you just made it breather easier/make more hp. Then take out that stock turbo that is only truly rated as lb/min of air flow and put in a larger turbo on that mod’d motor and you make even more power. Turbos cannot not be looked at for the psi they can put out since you could put our T25 on a 2.0 liter engine and it would hit 15 psi no problem, put that same turbo on a 5.0L motor and good luck trying to get 10 psi. Same with putting a smaller T2 on our engine verses a GT30, same boost pressure would results in much different hp readings. In the past some people used CFM which is a better measure of turbo output but that does not show the quality of air only quantity, so to show quality that is why turbos are rated with lb/min of air flow, the mass of the air. You know a lot of this, the info is here for anyone else reading too

 

Last (for now ) is pistons, 350 to 450 hp on stock pistons is nothing new :? , there are stock block Turbo Regals/GNs that run 10’s, should even be more hp than that, long as you do not detonate stock pistons can work just fine, but forged ones are always better for a few more reasons 8) .

 

In the distant past I was also quoted as telling people the chip I have gets their TGP to put out around 240 hp and 275 lb-ft of torque :shock: , dyno results have shown about the same, last one I looked at the readings calculated at the motor was 230 hp and 325 lb-ft of torque, goofed on both of those numbers I guess but will say that an engine in 3rd gear sitting on a dyno running up the graph is surely not going to get 75-130mph wind blowing over the radiator, intercooler or engine bay , so the 240 would be the street level of power.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

Kind of in a rush, wife and I are heading out the door for a fall color tour, but forgot to mention, boost or any measure of air flow into an engine is nothing if you are not getting the exhaust out, so work done in that area as well allows a lot more fresh air in/more hp with less boost. I mean if there is too much exhaust left in the engine on the exhaust stroke, then when the intake stroke happens there is not as much room for boosted fresh air if there is a lot of exhaust leftover. Mitsubishi has some of the best production turbo heads, flowing more on the exhaust side then on the intake side, good heads to start with.

 

Later

Peace

Jeff M

[Garrett Powered]

My dad's Caddy is rated at like 300 HP and I know how it feels to floor it in one of those Northstars.

 

I know for sure that I could out run one of those. It would be too easy.

[Garrett Powered]

an engine in 3rd gear sitting on a dyno running up the graph is surely not going to get 75-130mph wind blowing over the radiator, intercooler or engine bay , so the 240 would be the street level of power.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Jeff M

 

The torque we get is totally insane. Just need a little Naws to even out the HP with the torque . J/K.

[z284pwr]

In the distant past I was also quoted as telling people the chip I have gets their TGP to put out around 240 hp and 275 lb-ft of torque :shock: , dyno results have shown about the same, last one I looked at the readings calculated at the motor was 230 hp and 325 lb-ft of torque, goofed on both of those numbers I guess but will say that an engine in 3rd gear sitting on a dyno running up the graph is surely not going to get 75-130mph wind blowing over the radiator, intercooler or engine bay , so the 240 would be the street level of power.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Jeff M

 

So is it better to dyno these engines in 3rd gear or 2nd, or does it matter really.

[TGPilot]

Ummmm...on a dyno you do not have air rushing over the rad and intercooler like if you are actually driving the car. You would damn near have to setup a dyno in a wind-tunnel to get the proper effect. Running our cars in 2nd will give a slight # advantage due to the gear reduction. 3rd is optimal and running in 4th if you want a long dyno graph... 8)

[z284pwr]

Ummmm...on a dyno you do not have air rushing over the rad and intercooler like if you are actually driving the car. You would damn near have to setup a dyno in a wind-tunnel to get the proper effect. Running our cars in 2nd will give a slight # advantage due to the gear reduction. 3rd is optimal and running in 4th if you want a long dyno graph... 8)

 

Well, I think my 2nd gear is going bye bye, so I would go with 3rd then, I like third gear, car shifts into third and its happy time.....well, no, because it never gets about 80 anyways

[Jeff M]

The torque we get is totally insane. Just need a little Naws to even out the HP with the torque . J/K.

 

Actually the "Naws" is close :shock: we just need a little more air flow as the rpms increase, turbo, head or combo of both, we really have a great engine setup to start with 8)

 

Jeff M

[Garrett Powered]

Yea, I was thinking the same. Turbo, heads, Cosworth piston combo.

[Jeff M]

Ya like Kenny says, 3rd gear is best, since its 1 to 1 and the dyno graph will be straight up accurate as best as it can, but being truly accurate, well that is the huge problem, too often shops tweak the numbers up to make you happy with the money you spent on dyno-day, and as you brag to other friends about your numbers getting more guys wanting to come in to test their cars too, or if they sell parts, tweak the numbers down so you will be bummed and want more parts But air flow like Kenny says is very important yet seldom addressed at most dyno shops :x . Seen so often little fans or carpet drying fans (have better flow direction but still lame cfm!) used to cool a car when it makes a pull, that is just nuts Air flow is very important if you want some good numbers (and not risk overheat like one guy had here once), and there are fans that can do this, 20,000 to 30,000 cfm fans are out there and pretty common, but not at the shops like they should be. And if the car being tested has sat for 10-20 minutes outside after being driven to the dyno shop, then rolls in running and never has a chance to get rid of all that heat-soak, its even worse when the power gets put through the heat soaked engine, turbo and intercooler, those big fans would help if the car was run for a bit before the dyno run was done, but most just go with icing down the intake to get rid of all that heat soak and to keep their time on the dyno short.

 

And I forgot, the heat radiating out from the hot parts in the engine bay, and that which might come out if there is the stock radiator fan running or some small ass dyno fan is going to blast right into the air filter sitting on the turbo. But when there is enough air flowing as there is on the road, over the intercooler area, the air filter actully gets some pretty cool air, I know from the temperature test I have run in that area before the turbo/air filter, after the turbo and after the intercooler (ours drops 100 degrees easy, not bad for stock 8) ). So again, if the dyno shop has a good air moving fan, the turbo breathes better too

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

Well thanks to you guys my time away with the woman doing the color tour was not “awayâ€Â, as I was still thinking about the talks of boost and power levels and things, and it made me think (ouch ) about a TGP I set up years ago for Mike Gardner, some of you that have been around for a while might remember him, good guy 8) . Well I had him setup with a chip to test and run on his TGP that had a head and cam upgrade, stock turbo and fueling side, and setup for 100 octane. He ran down in hot-ass Arizona (temps of 78-90 and RH of 23-30%) so his times never looked all that awesome but if I do at least the NHRA correction factor to altitude for his area (like Kenny up at cloud level and his very respectable/corrected 14.4 8) ) his times were 13.58. I have the time slip for that run but cannot find the real one that we both were satisfied with when he ran a 13.53 corrected (he wanted a 13.5 but that was close enough), but these are good times for a stock turbo, mainly by making the engine/air pump work better with the heads and cams, toss on a good turbo and bigger injectors and "might" get closer to Curtis Walker’s times with his TGP engine’d Cavi, though Curtis can be way faster, way faster !

 

Jeff M

[Garrett Powered]

I saw that thing. I am a Cavi fan too. That was my high school project to build a Cavi motor.1.8 liter power baby! 5 speed POS type-10. Not the same I know .

Got an "A" for once in a class.

 

Would it work in a Fiero ? Thats what I want to know. I should go back over to 60*v-6.com and see if it has been done.

 

Just curious though, don't want a Fiero because I don't think I would fit in one :x. 6foot 8. And there is no room for a subwoofer.

[Jeff M]

His Cavi is very clean looking, very clean, always liked that style and his color is a very nice match 8)

 

Would a TGP engine work in a Fiero? sure, been done, seen even bigger engines go into them, Caddy V8s, and a local guy has a big V8 in his, launches in second gear and lifts the front tires :shock: First time I met him he was pulling up next to me and I said "must be a real big cam in that 2.8L motor" he had a big smile!! The older Formula and GTs looked very sweet on the outside, inside...what the hell was Pontiac thinking But as I recall 1988 as the last/only year to get when they finally took out the Chevette suspension and had it redesigned by (?)Cosworth maybe, Lotus I think

 

Jeff M

[Guest TurboSedan]

and "might" get closer to Curtis Walker’s times with his TGP engine’d Cavi, though Curtis can be way faster, way faster !

 

Jeff M

 

not to downplay Curis's work at all, but he doesn have weight advantage on his side....still though....his car is SICK and wayyyyy beyond what i've seen anyone else do with the 660 3.1 Turbo!!! and then there is his friend with the Cavy wagon with the T3/T04E 46 trim turbo putting down 229whp at only 6psi. the guy knows what he is doing and everyone should take a lesson in his experience/knowledge. it's good to have guys like this around for sure. no doubt the engine #s Curtis (or his friend with the wagon) puts down would make a W-body/TGP fly.

 

i'm going to have my TGP powered 5-speed Cutlass dyno'd in 3rd gear (one week away!). i'm really not so much concerned with whp numbers. will i hit 200whp? who knows but i doubt it. i am anxious as hell to see the wtq numbers though. my brother-the-Shelby-Dodge-nut thinks i can break 300wtq but i think he's too optimistic. these cars are torque monsters no doubt, we'll see what happens next week 8)

[Bossman429]

and "might" get closer to Curtis Walker’s times with his TGP engine’d Cavi, though Curtis can be way faster, way faster !

 

Jeff M

 

not to downplay Curis's work at all, but he doesn have weight advantage on his side....still though....his car is SICK and wayyyyy beyond what i've seen anyone else do with the 660 3.1 Turbo!!! and then there is his friend with the Cavy wagon with the T3/T04E 46 trim turbo putting down 229whp at only 6psi. the guy knows what he is doing and everyone should take a lesson in his experience/knowledge. it's good to have guys like this around for sure. no doubt the engine #s Curtis (or his friend with the wagon) puts down would make a W-body/TGP fly.

 

i'm going to have my TGP powered 5-speed Cutlass dyno'd in 3rd gear (one week away!). i'm really not so much concerned with whp numbers. will i hit 200whp? who knows but i doubt it. i am anxious as hell to see the wtq numbers though. my brother-the-Shelby-Dodge-nut thinks i can break 300wtq but i think he's too optimistic. these cars are torque monsters no doubt, we'll see what happens next week 8)

 

My Prediction:

196 WHP

287 WTQ

Who knows? Didn't Luke/Kenny's 5 speed TGP put down some insane amount of torque the last time he dynoed it?

[TGPilot]

Just 222 HP and 320 Ft/lbs to the wheels! Dyno day for the RMCGP guys is only 7 days away... 8)

[Jeff M]

not to downplay Curis's work at all, but he doesn have weight advantage on his side....still though....his car is SICK and wayyyyy beyond what i've seen anyone else do with the 660 3.1 Turbo!!! and then there is his friend with the Cavy wagon with the T3/T04E 46 trim turbo putting down 229whp at only 6psi. the guy knows what he is doing and everyone should take a lesson in his experience/knowledge. it's good to have guys like this around for sure. no doubt the engine #s Curtis (or his friend with the wagon) puts down would make a W-body/TGP fly.

 

i'm going to have my TGP powered 5-speed Cutlass dyno'd in 3rd gear (one week away!). i'm really not so much concerned with whp numbers. will i hit 200whp? who knows but i doubt it. i am anxious as hell to see the wtq numbers though. my brother-the-Shelby-Dodge-nut thinks i can break 300wtq but i think he's too optimistic. these cars are torque monsters no doubt, we'll see what happens next week 8)

 

Yea that is one sick ride! I am thinking that with his lack of traction in the first 4 gears his weight is hurting him a little, till he gets some larger drag tires, maybe some lift in the back so at the launch the weight does not transfer off the fronts so much, but hard to complain at all with a 12s as your daily driver 8)

 

Thanks for correcting me, I forgot he has those iron 660 heads, so only the bottom end has TGP parts. Yea Curtis and I every few months do a 2-4 hour cel phone tech session, tossing ideas and new understandings and approaches around, I got him hooked up with how to run the roller timing chain on his engine, some other ideas we exchanged but he has super good smarts and determination!

 

Good luck on dyno day!! Is third gear 1:1 on the manuals? Just read some more info on production variations to add to those I have said in the past, but read where a race team that setup 3 engines the exact same way had 60hp difference between them, come to find other than the usual differences, that the off the shelf cams did not have mirrored specs even though they were the same cams/part number. They ran the cams on a machine and found lobes were off by 5 degrees between each other , so they went and got a custom grind and that took care of the problem . So if we add cams to production engines/our engines, that adds even more to the problems with casting shift when intakes and heads are made, as well as blocks which I found in another statement that compression ratios can be off by up to .6 points :shock: , that’s a lot!!! So with all the production variations no 2 engines will be alike, some faster some slower, then add 15 years of wear and ownership maintenance and that variations increases, then add state of tune and I would say that no matter what dyno numbers you got, to NOT be freaked the numbers are not as good as others, aside from the little issues I mentioned on dyno tests too .

 

So, soon as you get to the dyno shop, pop the hood and leave it that way for a while, get that damn heat soak out of there, if you are up to it, go to the 2 fan relays and jumper them so the fans run all the time/while you are entering and on the dyno, this will really help keep the intercooler cold and air that is going to the air filter/turbo cold which will make a big difference. The chips I have still have that safety feature in there where the first WOT limits max power until the engine is warmed up and temps more equalized in the engine, so might have to hit WOT briefly once or twice to get past this before you make your actual dyno pull. Make sure the tires up front are at max pressure, less rolling resistance, if you have a logger keep an eye on the knock, should not have any but if you do then that 92 octane was bogus Well best of luck, let us know how it goes!!

 

Jeff M

[TurboZ24]

I actually managed too get my car too the dyno. I had some issues with boost control as well as spark, so the engine broke up at 6000 rpm and the boost wouldn't go past 7 psi, but at 6000 rpm and 7 psi it managed too put down 310.2 wheel HP with a peak torque of 290 ft lbs. Hopefully that will improve with additional tuning.

 

I did managed too solve the ignition and boost control issues, we did some gross tuning too prevent detonation, etc and ran it at 16 psi and it was totally sick, no traction at all and very hard too drive. Went too the track and tried too run it with 16 psi, but didn't get many runs before the tranny blew out.

 

I'm sure it was generating 400 + wheel HP at the track, but I'm too the point where I just can't get the driveline too hold up too the motor, so I might just repair it and stop racing it, at least until I can solve all the tranny issues.

[Jeff M]

Speak of the devil Those are some great results, always some challenges but good to hear you are getting through them 8) Sorry to hear the (manual?) tranny gave out, wish I knew of a good used Isuzu manual race tranny, they went for $20k back when I knew about them.

 

And making 320 hp at the wheel with only 7 psi is well under the 15 psi limit of a 2 bar map sensor, and proves the right setup can make serious power without ballistic boost

 

Curtis has the right parts, and the know-how, and I have no problems believing his 400+ hp quote

 

Jeff M

[Bossman429]

I actually managed too get my car too the dyno. I had some issues with boost control as well as spark, so the engine broke up at 6000 rpm and the boost wouldn't go past 7 psi, but at 6000 rpm and 7 psi it managed too put down 310.2 wheel HP with a peak torque of 290 ft lbs. Hopefully that will improve with additional tuning.

 

I did managed too solve the ignition and boost control issues, we did some gross tuning too prevent detonation, etc and ran it at 16 psi and it was totally sick, no traction at all and very hard too drive. Went too the track and tried too run it with 16 psi, but didn't get many runs before the tranny blew out.

 

I'm sure it was generating 400 + wheel HP at the track, but I'm too the point where I just can't get the driveline too hold up too the motor, so I might just repair it and stop racing it, at least until I can solve all the tranny issues.

Almost seems unusual to see a 3.1 with more horsepower than torque.

Usually these motors have great torque, but laking in the upper HP area.

Are Curtis' well balanced power numbers attributed to the turbo setup, or does it have something to do with using the Camaro 3.4 intake manifold? I'm sure that manifold outflows our standard upper plenum setup. What with the T/B being center mounted, and equal intake runners compared to our offset T/B, and open intake setup.

Perhaps there is another key to this high HP setup that I didn't notice?

 

P.S. Curtis, I LOVE your videos! I probably watch one/show a friend once a week just for kicks.

[Jeff M]

Yea it sure does make different power :shock: , but with an aggressive cam that moves the power band up and with this taking advantage of the hogged out heads and bigger intake, he is shooting for a power that goes up to 8,500 rpms, much different approach then ours starts with. Strong springs, well balanced lower end and a good combo all around gets the job done nicely! Many ways to get there, all have good results, depends some on money, and where you want your power band at and if you are street, street/strip or just strip.

 

As for our setup, the intake has some to do with the top end air flow but the heads and turbo are the major limits. Air flow for the stock heads is maxed at 171 to 185 depending on lift, and exhaust, well 108-110 and no more, needs some work, but knowing the heads you can get 240 in the intake and 160+ on the exhaust side, much better but the low to mid lift numbers where the valve actually spends more of its time is much better too averaging 33-48% flow gains for the exhaust port work and 30-50% in the intake side port work. Then the exhaust backpressure with our stock turbo, that is another key area that could use improvements, but you can make anything better no matter how good it is .

 

It is enjoyable to see different approaches, NA, Forced Induction, and with Mars running a supercharger, we have a good diversity to compare with 8) .

 

Jeff M

[TurboGTU]

Jeff M -

Umm (in a ribbing ya voice and some info for others reading that are still learning turbos and engines) that reply from a quite literate turbo/engine guy?

 

See this is why I need to stop visting the boards at the crack of dawn. I ment to say for my 500Whp goal . I know dam well I can get 350hp right now using the stock airflow available. My map limit will be if I need the earge to step the boost up seeing if I can crack 500hp out of it(without changing to gen III or even braking the intake seal open...gen 2 all the way). My piston concern is the devius crown. She can only take so much abuse before she gets an angle crown. I yet to see a 2.8 piston fail like ours.

 

 

But like I said..next spring...if my trans holds up.