turbo goin out!!?? *getting a rebuild*

[futuretgper]

hey guys, as the title says i think my turbo is getting bad....here are the symptoms:

1. occasionally blows alot of smoke, which smells very oily.

2. found substantial oily residue in mouth if compressor housing....could this be from the pcv tube??? or is it from the oiling of the turbo itself??

3. found substantial end play, but only upward endplay, its still tight side to side but if u wiggle it up and down it move more than it did b4!

 

thats about it......i haven't really been going through oil though....and the turbo still spools and makes good power.....anyway whats my best bet....how much is a rebuild???

 

anyway ad coments and take the poll!!

[R Dubya]

ok so ask yourself if it blows smoke during idle.. and then also ask your self how many miles are on the car. If the answer is yes, and less than 150k, which is less than 39k 8) chances are the insides of your oil return line have split and you simply need to change it out with a new piece of hose. jim w (idbeast) has a write up on the tgp forum which will guide you in the right direction.

[90tgpblk]

Get a gt28rs....

[futuretgper]

i already have a new oil return per jeff m when i bought the cossover!!!! is it possible i over tightened or something and ruined it....or could it be ruined already.....ive only ran it for this summer and thats maby 3000 miles!

[dbtk2]

Its possible that it is your turbo, but unlikely with those kind of miles. I would replace the return line again or at least inspect it to see if it looks good before replacing the turbo.

 

As for the smoke, when did it start blowing all this smoke? Was it around the last time you did an oil change? What kind of oil did you use? The reason I ask this is when I got my STE I changed the oil and it started smoking really really bad, however upon the next oil change I switched to synthetic oil and it stopped smoking, the previous owner had used synthetic oil, so when I did my first oil change with regular oil it started smoking...this might be your problem.

 

Shawn

[TGPilot]

If you get a new turbo I would go with a T28 hybrid. It is the same turbo except they up size the compressor wheel and the exhaust turbine. 8)

[futuretgper]

yeah ill go check the return line tommoro....oh and it doesn't seem to smoke if put it into boost regularly.....it seems like if i go WOT then come to a stop it doesn't smoke at all......as for the oil change i need to do one soon....haven't changed it yet :oops: but the car has smoke slightly since i owned it...just not this much and the end play has gotten dramaticaly worse.

 

anyone have any ideas about the oil in the mouth of the turbo??? anyone heard from jeff m, i haven't heard from him in a while....i sent him an email (not related to this) and i haven't heard back!!! i thought he might be the man to talk to since he designed the intake that i have on (the K&N right on the turbo with the pcv tube runing into it)...i was wondering if its possible to pull enough oil blow-by out of that tube that you would notice built up oil in the mouth......anyway i check my endplay again and if i push down on the nut it is possible for the compressor blades to come into contact with the housing......although i don't think it would, because it naturally stays up, i have to think thats a bad sign!

thanks for the help guys

 

oh shit..ps

my car makes a loud humming sound (sounds like a rubbing belt but it isn't, ill try to get some movie clips) from under the hood now.....it goes away if i get on it..but it happens in any gear.......like one spot from 2000-3000rpm or so!! i cant' pin point it but its gotta be drive line or turbo....in either case not much pre-emtively i can do about it!! anyone have similar humming whining sound???

[Guest TurboSedan]

Jeff is on vacation right now.

 

I am a few days rushing to finish up projects and work and such to be gone on vacation till August 5th

[futuretgper]

why thats today!! maby ill hear from him!! turbosedan sorry i haven't been reading up on ur build lately.....hows it running?? last i read you broke a timing chain or something??

[futuretgper]

k more questions.....so im gonna change my oil and oil filter.....whats the best oil filter to go with??

 

and

 

TGPilot, if i were to go with a t28 hybrid would i need to do a substantial amount of tuning...or could i bolt it on and expect to run strong??? i imagine that to realize any gain out of a just a new turbo i would have to tune it quite a bit!!

[LukeZ34]

Delco Oil filter.

[TGPilot]

A t-28 hybrid will flow more air and allow the motor to breath a little better. I would think there would need to be some minor chip tuning to allow for more fuel...but if you kept the boost levels resonable you should be plug and play. When Jeff returns ask him if it is required to tune.

 

Any WIX filter. NAPA gold is what I use on all my cars now after seeing for myself what FRAM filters allow through! :shock:

[TurboGTU]

Royal purple oil. Mobil 1 filter or OE type.

 

Cheap oil can leak into the turbine and compressor since it brakes down with the heat and turns into a thin watter like or fuel like liquid and can tar or carbon up on the turbine seal and bearings.

[Prospeeder]

i have somthing like that, but theres no oil in the copressor housing, or IC, just in the TB, jeff m said somthing about Oil spray from the crank case, this is prolly a worthless post tho, but mabye i have somthign similar? its just leaked alot farther?? i dunno

[Jeff M]

i already have a new oil return per jeff m when i bought the cossover!!!! is it possible i over tightened or something and ruined it....or could it be ruined already.....ive only ran it for this summer and thats maby 3000 miles!

 

Its still a good drain line 8) Only thing could be the oil drain line is kinked.

 

Others can use this info so I will be general about it.

 

First off take off the oil fill cap, look inside of it, if there is much goo stuck in there, or even worse, hardened thick gunk then not that good of oil changes done along with cheaper oil maybe non-synthetic in the past, so build-up in the turbo's oil seal area might as well be narly and not allowing things to seal. If this is the case then move towards a semi-synthetic, a few oil changes then a full synthetic, a few more then add some Rislone to the mix, and same for below, use a quality oil in the range our engines are setup for, 5W30 or 10W30.

 

If the underside of the oil fill cap is pretty clean then shorten the move to a full synthetic and the Rislone, again using the proper oil weight and good quality oil.

 

Either way, in time the synthetic as well as the Rislone will help clean out the goo or gunk at the turbo's oil seal, long as its not too hard at which point, use crap oil so the shit gets beat out of there , or a rebuild. And why (for some that have not heard this yet) you never jump to a full synthetic on a just bought car unless the previous owner you trust or they can prove it. Same if you have been using dino oil, slow the change to synthetic or its great ability to clean things up in an engine (and keep them clean, great stuff!!) might just loosen a piece or chunk of sludge that could find its way into a small oil passage and block it, starving something of full oil pressure, not good!!

 

Jeff M

[Prospeeder]

ahhh jeff, i sent u a PM!!! how does that crank case spray of oil in the TB happen!??? lol

[Garrett Powered]

I say pull the turbo off and check it for a crack on the turbine side because if you try to drive it around when it is smoking it will crack the housing making the whole thing a peice of junk. you should have pulled it out and sent it away to Garrett long ago when it was first smoking. I wish someone had told me that. now I paid $1000 to get back on the road. no way to tell unless you take it off, remember that. yours is probably a gonner so you might look into the hybrid when you see the fine crack in there between the waste gate hole and the turbine. I have seen two like that but you have to look close.

[futuretgper]

first off to adress jeff m's oil change suggestions.....im not sure what kid of oil was put in the car b4 me but ive been adding full snythetic oil slowly....as in when it needs to be topped off so nothign drastic.....and i haven't done a full oil change yet.....just about to!! so do you think im in trouble becuase i used the full synth right away, even if it was in small quantities.......so if i go do an oil change here im gonna want partial synthetic....anyway i just pulled my K&N off and there is even more oil in the compressor housing....like a swirled coating!!! and the end play is worse yet....so im sure its the turbo.......so no amount of oil changes are going to bring the end play back will they!???

 

also to garrett powered.....why does a turbine side crack cuase the smoking......or how does driving it now cuase it to crack??? not trying to put you on the spot i just don't know how it would happen??

[Garrett Powered]

Not much that can make me shy away. I can be pretty bold in what I say sometimes and not afraid to say what I know that will help ya! so all good there. Trust me I have been through enough with this car and know what I am talking about here. so I know what you are faced with. I got a red one too with 140 k that I was extremely dissapointed to see its turbo cracked as well.

 

Take comfort knowing that you can get to where I am at just by chipping away at your goals and being persistent. I got lucky I never got pulled over when the smoke got worse and worse month after month. Now I am so happy with my ride, I cant stop the urge to drive it. 8)

 

DO NOT DRIVE IT UNTIL YOU CONFIRM IT IS NOT CRACKED!

 

OK is that better j/k

[futuretgper]

u never explained why it will crack if i drive in now!?!?! haha did you mean its probably already cracked.....if so why does that make it smoke.....i believe you i just don't see why that makes it smoke!!

[Jeff M]

Garrett Powered, good commitment which is always the best sign of a good board member 8) , and keeping your cool, and that all important give and take meaning someone can hit on you and you can let it slide and come back un scathed and clear things up, sure makes my job easier . If you don’t mind I would like to add something. Myself and others on this message board that have been TGP owners for a very long time (myself and others from 1990, and being on every TGP Message Boards since their inception back in 1996, and for me the thousands of emails over the years, yea thousands no lie :!: ) have all found over the years and heard from other good sources that it is very common for the T25 turbo (there are hundreds of different “T-2/T25s) to have cracks at the wastegate opening in the turbine housing. I myself have seen a few dozen TGP T25s here when doing pipe swaps and other work that all had these cracks, from 1 to 4 cracks at locations 12 o-clock, 3 o-clock, 6 and 9, and I have 8 TGP turbos (few complete) that all had turbine housings with these wastegate cracks. From all this no one yet has experienced cracks that went far enough to cause a problem, or have one fall apart/into pieces, so we have learned to live with it also knowing it does not cause any problems, and the work I did finding there are only a very few shops that can actually weld the cracks properly being out of the reach of most people and turbo rebuilders that we can deal with. But the turbine housing is separate from the center section of the turbo where the oil seal is at so cracks in the turbine housing do not cause oil leaks nor lead to an indicator of an oil leak in the center section.

 

More info on the cracks is a few turbo (less experienced) rebuilders saying to the owner that they should have the cracks welded up (non which last since they cannot get this level of work done proper) or the housing replaced, all an unnecessary expense for the owner, and many here on the message boards over the years getting their turbos rebuilt have enjoyed this savings and relief of any concerns about the cracks from just such talks we are having.

 

Now further thinking beyond any integrity issues of the housing is the leaking through these cracks and fear of less boost or slow turbo spool up (the later NOT being a problem for our 3.1L blowing into a T25 :!: ) is the wastegate flapper never gets near closed anyways when running the safe 10-12 psi we have when chip’d. As a test years ago I wired my wastegate closed (on a cracked turbine housing ), and running a data logger watching knock retard (detonation) on a 45 degree evening and a tank of 100 octane I saw 20 psi at around 2,500 to 3,000 rpms :shock: , that went down to 18 then 17 psi as the rpms peaked, so there is plenty of exhaust to achieve the safe 10-12 psi we can run even with these cracks 8) .

 

So, hope this helps expand your knowledge base from the many learned and shared over the last 10 to 15 years from others off the Internet, and to also help keep futuretgp’er from getting too freaked about his turbo and spending money on the cracks when its ok to live with them 8) .

 

And futuretgp’er, the approach you are taking is fine for now, though I would just ditch the old oil you have all together and get all new :!: , a full fill of semi is good for now. From the oil filter test web site (that got shut down by threats from company lawyers ) I visited, and from buying all the oil filters I could get (HardDriver, Mobil 1, Wix, Hastings, Purolator, Fram and etc) the best I found for us is still the AC Delco PF52, theirs has the most amount of paper and the best paper density for oil flow verses oil filtering, though the UPF52 (their expensive “Gold†version, and there is a lesser “Silver†version that is still better than the PF52) are even better yet.

 

Jeff M

[futuretgper]

thanks for the tips on everything guys....im probably gonna get the turbo rebuilt.....wheres the best place to have it rebuilt......i saw cheapturbo.com does it for a 300$ flat fee well unless they see more damage then they charge more.... how would i warn them not to replace any turbine housings or ignore them.....just put a note on the turbo?? also how much do you think it would be to replace the compressor wheel if mine is damaged from rubbing the comp housing?????

 

thanks again guys hopefully ill be out and running soon........damn turbos!!!

[SleeperRed90TGp]

Oil filters page. Not finished but good info.

 

http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html

 

The lawers missed this one.

[Jeff M]

Oil filters page. Not finished but good info.

 

http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html

 

The lawers missed this one.

 

Well no........ it’s nothing like the original :oops: , this one’s only value is the info on square inches of filter media, which only holds true for the PF2 version they selected to test, and does not reflect the same results when doing another model like the PF52 one that we have The most important aspect of an oil filter is to “filterâ€Â, and the pressure drop while doing this which had been done but was what the lawyers got taken off after many threats, that blows big time . So, from the PF52 style filters I took apart there was differences in sq in with the AC Delco having the most, and struck a happy medium between one having really tight pores in the filter media that would have more pressure drop verses (also increasing as the pores fill with contaminants) one with larger openings that did not have as much of a pressure drop but would not filter down as far. You have to find a good compromise between these 2 ends of the scale, or, go with the synthetic blanket types which the Hastings had once, and the AC Delco UPF52 does have, a real thick media unlike the thin treated paper of others, that flows well and filters down to small particles and holds more particles before restriction causes a pressure drop that necessitates an oil filter change.

 

Futuretgp’er, if this is the shop Davis and a few recently just used then the feedback is very positive on cheapturbos . I have heard too many bad things about Majestic and one other that is listed on Shawn Linn’s web site 8) . As for that “damn turbosâ€Â, I hope to cheer you up here since unless there was a manufacture defect involved (read on further below) then its not the turbo’s fault 8) . I believe the majority of the turbo owners here have 100K or more miles and many with their original turbos, I know of 2 owners with over 240K miles and original turbo, tranny and engine, so these turbos are pretty damn good and with our history to prove it. Owner influence is the key factor here, and that is how the turbo is/was treated and maintained. Though ours is water cooled which helps a great deal, if the previous owner ran a cheap mineral or even a good mineral oil then was getting the thing hot from some high speed/high power runs on a hot day that were followed by an immediate shut down of the engine then the turbo would do a pretty good job of cooking the oil which will wreck any turbo including ours. Another thing that some guys like doing is revving up the engine before they shut if off, ouch as the engine driving the oil pump/oil supply to the turbo would stop, but the turbo would still be spinning down without the oil pressure keeping the turbo bearings in suspension, Turbo Regal guys yelled out this goof-up first. Aside from the quality/type of oil used in your car’s past, the other factor with this is oil change intervals. Oil change intervals with mineral oil should be 3 months of 3,000 miles whichever comes first, so if you only have 39k miles then that was only 13 oil/filter changes in the last 15 years if based on mileage, if based on months that would be 60 oil/filter changes :shock: . So guessing it was based on mileage like is so often done then there could have been a period when the car sat for a long time (maybe right before you got it??) with the same oil that was then driven and maybe even hard (you?), if so dude I am sorry to tell you this now and not before , and that the engine which is using the same oil for lubricating would like a full oil/filter change like right now too!!! 8) ...though the turbo is the only item other than rings/cylinder walls and lifter body to lifter bores that really rely on good lubrication so I would not freak your old oil has destroyed your engine, should be ok, just tell us by tomorrow that the old oil and filter are gone !! So, just wanting you to like your car, especially one with so few miles and in such great condition !!!....so my next point to suggest along those lines is the radiator fluid if its still the original fill, it needs to be done every 2 to 3 years, which is not the case so often but can ruin the radiators abilities to cool if flushes are not done, and we like to keep this baby cool 8) .

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

:oops: Ooops, silly Jeff, going on about dumping all this other good info, I forgot one thing that should have been said at the start, have you changed out your PCV Valve??????????? It could be sticking and allowing too much oil fumes/oil mist to be sucked into the intake, might want to do that too but I would do the oil change first to see if that stops the smoking, then do the PCV Valve as these process of elimination steps will be beneficial in proving who was the culprit!!!!...this would be good to know!!

 

Jeff M