DaveFromColorado Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 I'm lookin' for a distributor from a 2.8/3.1 to see if I can modify the 3.4 to run with a carb/distributor setup - if anyone can help me locating one (or lettin' me know what cars came with that setup) that'd be awesome - the only two cars that I know of that had 'em were the older Fiero's and the Celebrity's - and I've looked in the junkyards for both, and wasn't able to find anything, and I was thinking if I could look in a different car, I may have better results. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 What about in the RWD applications that the 2.8/3.1 was in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 2.8 s-10/ sonoma, 2.8 camaro/ firebird, 3.1 transport/ silouhette, lumina APV, the one to find would be a really old celebrity/ 6000/ century/ cutlass ciera, those were 2 bbl carbs with a good distributor, 85 and older s-10/ blazer/ s-15/ jimmys had the same setup, as did the rare citation/ pheonix 2.8 cars and the 82-84? camaro/ firebird 2.8s There was at one time a holley, IIRC, 4 bbl. carb intake available for a 2.8, almost bought one at the junk yard one day for my old blazer. hope that helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 I am not sure that the 3.4 can be modded to use one of those distributors. The distributor is driven off of a gear on the cam, I believe, and the 3.4 is just not set up that way. Wouldn't work unless there is some sort of adapter I am not aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 I am not sure that the 3.4 can be modded to use one of those distributors. The distributor is driven off of a gear on the cam, I believe, and the 3.4 is just not set up that way. Wouldn't work unless there is some sort of adapter I am not aware of. +1 I may have missed the original thread, but WHY ON EARTH would you want to go from FI and DIS ignition to carb and distributor?!?!? (Unless you are doing some kind of racing that required a carb of course) Carbs and distributor advancers are nothing but a series of tradeoffs... If you make them do one aspect correctly, they foul up another... There IS a reason newer cars are meeting tighter emissions and making a TON more power than they were in the 70's and early 80's... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 All 2.8, 3.1, 3.4 OHV engines have that same oil pump drive. You know, the one that leaks. That is in the same location that the distributer went on the older engines. All GM did was make a fake distributor to turn from the gear on the cam and turn the oil pump below. I'm with you guys on the WHY? factor of the question. The electronics required to make the FI and DIS run are not that complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 I'm gonna be puttin' the carb/distributor setup on a 3.4 DOHC engine, not a pushrod engine. I'm not really sure why I want to do a setup like this, probably because no one has done it before, and it's going to be very interesting to see how it works out. I've already got some engine dyno time, to see just how much power I can squeeze out of this setup, I've gotten ahold of some used MSD stuff (msd 6A) I'm probably going to try to fit this engine into something older ... although I'm not sure what yet for the simple reason of having the only one like it out there. I've come across some ideas for the head getting in the way of the distributor drive issues, such as machining the head down in that spot, and moving the tab over or up and welding it back on to make a good seal for the manifold that I'm putting together. I've got a LOT of crazy ideas, just not sure which one I want to put in motion, hopefully I can make this thing work, if not, I figure Oh well, I'll only be out my time, and a few bucks and at least I will have either proven, or disproven a theory. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkness Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 All 2.8, 3.1, 3.4 OHV engines have that same oil pump drive. You know, the one that leaks. That is in the same location that the distributer went on the older engines. All GM did was make a fake distributor to turn from the gear on the cam and turn the oil pump below. Hmmm... didn't know that, but it makes sense. As far as the "why", I have a thread going in Powertrain about tuning a 3800 (231 Buick) with new cam, carb, etc. Just to be different is sometimes enough. If you can get more power than a stocker, that's a bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 I've come across some ideas for the head getting in the way of the distributor drive issues, such as machining the head down in that spot, and moving the tab over or up and welding it back on to make a good seal for the manifold that I'm putting together. before you go too much further, do yourself a favor and go look at a distributor for a 2.8. there is absolutely no possible way to fit that distributor with the cap on it into a 3.4 tdc engine. the distributor only sits about an inch at the most off of the intake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 remember, I'll be building my own intake manifold arround this engine and the other parts (such as the distributor) - as long as the distributor clears the head, I'll be in fairly* decent shape. However I will remember this when it comes time to fit things together before I get my heated styrofoam out to start pressing in for my manifold dimensions ... --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 you only have one height option on the distributor, because of the gear having to line up with the cam. And it will NOT clear the head. Hell, you have to have the head off to get the oil pump drive out on a 3.4 TDC engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 yeah, I know about the lower intake mounting bolt hole on the head bein' in the way of the distributor, which is why I'd already commented about moving it - and if I am able to move it outta the way, if the distributor will clear the rest* of the head. It's some interesting things to look at, and hopefully I'll be able to get it to work right. (I do understand where you're commin' from on these warnings, they are helpful!) --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 All 2.8, 3.1, 3.4 OHV engines have that same oil pump drive. You know, the one that leaks. That is in the same location that the distributer went on the older engines. All GM did was make a fake distributor to turn from the gear on the cam and turn the oil pump below. Hmmm... didn't know that, but it makes sense. As far as the "why", I have a thread going in Powertrain about tuning a 3800 (231 Buick) with new cam, carb, etc. Just to be different is sometimes enough. If you can get more power than a stocker, that's a bonus. A 3800 is a VERY different animal than a 3.4 DOHC... The 3800 would be taking the carb/distributor off of an '80's cutlass or monte or something and having something that you can just put parts together from different years and such (minor differences obviously)... The DOHC on the other hand would be COMPETELY different from the way it was designed, and would probably not make as much power in all situations and such. I guess if it was me and I had this kind of time to even contemplate doing this, I'd be twin turboing a 350 and dropping it into an 80's cutlass supreme or regal instead... But, on the other side of that coin, you can't justify a hobby... (although I'd justify, to myself of course, the twin turbo 350 by knowing it'd be making a given car REALLY FUCKING FAST...) Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 Hey Dave, this project has got me thinking a little bit. First question is, where do you plan on moving the distributor to? Or that will be determined once you have it tore down some? As for running this system off of an MSD system, I'm assuming this system will also control stuff like knock, air:fuel ratio, basic stuff like that, correct? Anywho, sounds like a damn interesting project you have on your hands. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 well, the MSD will simply be for the ignition itself, the 6A literally is the introduction ignition that MSD offers (well, better then the 5a anyhow) it won't have a rev limit on it, but that's an add on module I can put in, sometime in the future. as for Trans-Control, (if it ends up in my car) that's gonna be "auto-stick" style with a set of relays and a couple push buttons to control up and down shifts (if that idea will actually work) otherwise I'll go to an older 440t4 that uses vacuum and a throtle valve (detent cable) from the older W's or a 5-speed Knock will simply be controled by jetting the carbs to the proper level, I will be running three 2bbl Mikuni down-draft carbs to achieve the level I am looking for, with a vacuum pipe between all the runners to keep the vacuum at the proper level across all 6 cylinders, on the engine dyno, I will have a W/B O2 sensor in all 6 holes, along with EGT probes in those locations too. I'm gonna try to keep the distributor in the stock location (fingers crossed) and design the intake manifold arround that, along with moving the bolt hole tab on the head to a location that will allow me to place the distributor in the stock location. It's gonna be a project and a half, and hopefully I'll have SOMETHING together on the bench at least able to start by winter time, and hopefully by january it will be on the engine dyno getting tuned, and I'll have some power output numbers for everyone. I'm not expecting anything* in the low RPM's due to the cam's and the fact that it's a carb individule runner type setup, I will try to find something RWD to put this engine into, as it will be MUCH easier to make headers for it (Ask Aaron if making headers for a DOHC in a W is cheap and easy) This is an idea I've toyed 'round with since we did three side draft 2bbl carbs onto a Jeep 4.0 straight-6 removing the fuel infection and running an older distributor. That engine made a HELL of a lot more power with that setup then it did stock (IIRC it was something like an extra 130hp over stock, it was crazy extra power) I've got all these strange ideas runnin' 'round in my head, like my multi-length runner idea, but I want to try this carb'd engine first. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slick Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 I believe you will be able to get it to mate to a RWD tranny as *i think* there are adapter plates out there. That might make it easier for you. Anyways, sounds like one hell of a project, and seems as if you are pretty much jumping right into it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 yeah, now if I could only find a donor 3.4 DOHC engine... I have a couple ideas where to look, but no clue how cheap they will be, or if they even run ... although they would be good for making the molds of where I need to drop the parts, and looking at clearance issues with the distributor. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 now... I don't know what the different models of MSD ignition have, but I will tell you... you REALLY want a distributer WITH vacuum advance on it! Any engine I've seen with one of those "upgrade" distriboters on it runs like ass anywhere but full throttle/redline, or it runs good everywhere else and runs like ass WOT/redline... This would probably be REALLY bad on the DOHC because of the high redline and therefore, the large difference in timing advance required to get it to run well everywhere. I'd have still been original with a wicked turbo setup with less work and money, but it's your baby... mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 well, for my Z - I want to see if I can supercharge it - a few people have already done the turbocharger setup - for the carb'd engine, I'd probably drop it in something RWD, I've used the MDS distributors MANY times and have had EXELECENT results for daily driving and WOT/Redline - it's all about making sure the advance curve is set how you want it by using the proper weights and springs - and I've got access to a Sun distributor machine so I can dial all that crap in real easy. As for vacuum advance, MSD makes enough retard/advance modules that I shouldn't have too much of a problem getting the curve I need - plus I can still use the vacuum advance on the stock distributor anyhow. After this project is either finished or scrapped (depending on how dificult it will be to run a distributor down into this motor) I'll probably play with my multi-length runner Idea - I've been looking at that for a lil' while now and I've got some ideas/measurements already laid out. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joberlee Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 After this project is either finished or scrapped (depending on how dificult it will be to run a distributor down into this motor) I'll probably play with my multi-length runner Idea - I've been looking at that for a lil' while now and I've got some ideas/measurements already laid out. take a look at the mazda rotary engine that they won with at the 92 24 hour race at lemans. That has the coolest variable intake tubes i've ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 well, for my Z - I want to see if I can supercharge it - a few people have already done the turbocharger setup - for the carb'd engine, I'd probably drop it in something RWD, I've used the MDS distributors MANY times and have had EXELECENT results for daily driving and WOT/Redline - it's all about making sure the advance curve is set how you want it by using the proper weights and springs - and I've got access to a Sun distributor machine so I can dial all that crap in real easy. As for vacuum advance, MSD makes enough retard/advance modules that I shouldn't have too much of a problem getting the curve I need - plus I can still use the vacuum advance on the stock distributor anyhow. After this project is either finished or scrapped (depending on how dificult it will be to run a distributor down into this motor) I'll probably play with my multi-length runner Idea - I've been looking at that for a lil' while now and I've got some ideas/measurements already laid out. --Dave. Oh... gotcha... I was thinking you were using a whole MSD ignitnio system and just wanted a stock distributor to get it running and to fabricate with or something... I guess I said the issue wrong on the distributor... There are 3 basic modes... 1. WOT/redline 2. driving "around", and 3. WOT low rpm. It seems like you can get 2 of the 3 OK... If you have it set for WOT/redline and for "around" driving, it doesn't work real well for low rpm launches and stuff like that, because it has no way of knowing whether it needs 16 degrees of advance for just "around" at 2000rpm or 20 degrees advance for WOT at 2000rpm... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 I was lookin' at that rotary engine actually, it's quite an interesting setup, I don't think I'll go that fancy, my setup idea will look more like something off the mazda 2.5 v6 (in the probes) or off of the Yamaha DOHC v6's (in the SHO's) altho I could always (spend ass loads of money) and have new cams made, and supercharge the engine and go from an otto cycle, to a miller cycle engine... (yeah like I've got THAT kinda money LOL!) As for the MSD setup, depending on how much money you want to throw at these things, you can set them up for all 3 situations very easily. --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 23, 2005 Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 Fair enough... I've not thrown money at any of it, just done the tuning with advance and the weights and springs on regular aftermarket distributors (mainly MSD, not that it matters) without vaccuum advance and have never known anybody who had any luck doing it like that... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveFromColorado Posted July 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2005 MSD makes an awesome BTM module that has both vacuum advance, and boost retard on it now - I've seen it in a LOT of cars that are unboosted this module just for the vacuum advance feature. the new MSD programmable 7 plus will allow for vacuum advance as well as boost retard through the whole RPM range, and will allow for different advancing/retarding based on manifold vacuum/pressure --Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 yes, no matter what brand it is, if it has vacuum advance, it can be made to run right... I've just not had any luck with the ones without vacuum advance... MIke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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