60* Engine Mods for NewBs

[topless94style]

Try and keep this thread for its intended use only, correct any of my errors, and add your own knowledge.

 

you just got this car becuase you have no money, you needed a beater, or your parents handed you down a wbody. Lucky you, because there is not a whole hell of a lot to make it faster. And if you want to go fast, by the definition of nowadays fast, dont waste your time here.

 

Mods do with this thread what you want, I figured I would attempt to answer the most common questions in one thread to make it easier on everyone.

 

Most of my knowledge is of the LQ1, so anyone with the know how on other available engines in the Wbodys can post up go fast info to those engines.

 

Before you start any modding, you should make sure the engine is in good condtion. Go through and fix anything and everything that is bad, clean it up really really good. Make the engine look presentable, and run like a top. Do a full tune up, get a K&N filter new plugs new wires if needed, replace failed gaskets, new timing belt and pulleys, new serp belt, new fuel filter. Spend a day doing a tune up and cleaning up the engine bay for some real work. Then continue down this thread and see whats in store for your engine.

 

Engine Mods:

 

Basic Bolt Ons:

FFP Dogbone

FFP Underdrive Pulley

 

A little deeper:

Build a true Cold Air Intake some members have moved the battery to the trunk, others have been able to get the filter into the fender outside of the engine bay by just sliding the battery all the way forward. I would highly reccomend using metal piping and getting it cut/bent/welded professionally unless you know how. Keep it nice and polished as that helps to deflect the most amount of heat.

 

Dont waste your time with a Warm Air Intake.

 

Exhaust system. This kinda goes on how you like a car to sound. I prefer a smooth growl with my car, because I dont see it as a race car, but as something more classy. Yes, I know its not a high end top of the line classy car, but I consider it it that way and dont want some raspy ass noises coming from it. People have taken different routes with this, and you can go as simple as slapping on some after market mufflers, or doing a custom cat back system. Expect to spend alot of money going custom cat back though, that is if you bring it into a shop. I spend shy of $700 on mine. I went with a carsound cat, 18" magnaflow round muffler, and 2 magnaflow XL series mufflers with 3" tips. Cat back is 2.5" until you hit the Ypipe which is 2.25". At idle, this system isnt much louder, driving it has alot better growl over stock, and when you go WOT she screams. The LQ1 is a very very raspy motor, so putting all this on eliminates it almost completly. I have heard alot of different styles of exhaust, and some sound good loud. Borlas are another good choice that leave a good sound but very loud.

 

Headers. These have to be custom made for the LQ1, as there is no company out there that makes them. It just may be a possibility for some crafty person to design a high quality set for a good price to sell them and make some money. A couple sets have been made, but one word of advice learned is that the engine should be tuned after a header install. Oh, and do your research, I cant emphasize this enough, headers can make or break your engine, and when done properly you will have very very nice results.

 

SO this isnt enough go for you? Or just not your cup of tea? Go to 60degreev6 and get yourself a set of lighter lifters and install those. If you have mechanical know how, just install them if your putting on a knew timing belt as you have to tear the engine down this far anyway. Just a few more bolts and you can have yourself a set of lighter lifters.

 

While you have your engine this far torn down, might has well have a valve job done, deck the heads to bump up compression, and do a port and polish job. Heads all ready to go with the P&P are available at http://www.60degreev6.com.

 

When putting the beast back together, dont forget to do a little timing adjustments on the cams. Again, a good read up about this is available at 60degreev6.com.

 

Alot Deeper:

Want some real power? Do a rebuild on the motor, and research quench area and perfect that on your engine while at the same time bumping up compression.

 

I am not sure if anyone has tried this yet, but this engine shines in the high RPMs. Go to a junkyard and get a crankshaft out of a 2.8L engine. Get some longer rods, I think rods from 350 small blocks will work, and probably have to get a set of custom pistons. What this will do is allow you to pull higher revs out of your engine by destroking it. It will also reduce the capacity of your engine, so it will be less than 3.4L. That is, if thats the only thing you do to it. If I remember right, the stock rods are 5.7", and with the 2.8L crank I believe you will need 6" rods.

 

I am not sure what motors come with these, but get yourself a windage tray to bolt to the main caps and help deflect oil away from the crank to help reduce the extra weight on the crankshaft. I think this is how they work, anyone who knows for sure please fix this.

 

Go to a true professional machine shop that knows how to lighten fly wheels, and get your flywheel lightened. Reducing the rotating mass of the flywheel by a couple pounds can equal taking 30+lbs out of your car alone. The shaving must be done correctly, or the flywheel can split apart and come at you through the car and split you down the middle. The shaving should stay to the outside of the flywheel so if possible watch how they do a couple flywheels before you give them yours.

 

On 60degreev6 there is a thread about cam regrinds. It is possible to find a company to regrind your cams to provide that extra boost in power. No one has coughed up the money yet to do it though, as no one knows what grind will work, and most of us dont have that kind of money to play around with.

 

Naturally aspirated not the way you swing?

Adding boost:

Everything has to be custom, and its very time consuming. I am not by any means a custom fabricater, but I tried it out, and for having no experience doign this type of thing, its a pain in the ass. I am turbo charging my 3.4L engine, and its taking along time, but when its done I know I will be happy. Finding the right turbo isnt too hard, I highly reccomned researching how to read a compressor map, doing the calculations and then plotting on different maps til you find a good turbo. This can be a pain in the ass, especially for someone who is not that great at math, but believe me, the more stuff like this that you can do, the better off and knowledegable you will be.

 

I am running out of time for now, but I and others can add more. I will move out of the engine aspect and onto suspension.

 

Most people are running KYB struts found on http://www.tirerack.com for a farely good price. I have a set, but they wont be put on for awhile. There has been group buys for lowering springs, and I think another may be happening soon, so check out the group buy section. As there are no springs in the back, it is just a monoleaf spring. There are a few companies out there that will make a custom on to lower your car and stiffen up that rear end even more. Just gotta search the net.

 

Addco makes a rear sway bar for our cars, and if you dont have FE3 suspension, you can get the front sway bar from a wbody that has FE3 and beef up the front end too. The problem with the Addco bar is that you have to make some custom brackets to hold it up, and people have had problems with those breaking and the bar slaming against the underside of the car.

 

From gmpartsdirect.com I think is the site you can order a set of rear trailing arms from a newer wbody, like 1996 and up. They are a better set then whats on the car now.

 

Alright well, im starting to get a little vague on my discriptions, so I will stop and continue again, anyone finding mistakes in my writing let me know, and anyone with anything to add, please do.

[88Regal Limited]

STICKY!

[jeremy]

STICKY!

 

good idea

[Aaron]

I am not sure if anyone has tried this yet, but this engine shines in the high RPMs. Go to a junkyard and get a crankshaft out of a 2.8L engine. Get some longer rods, I think rods from 350 small blocks will work, and probably have to get a set of custom pistons. What this will do is allow you to pull higher revs out of your engine by destroking it. It will also reduce the capacity of your engine, so it will be less than 3.4L. That is, if thats the only thing you do to it. If I remember right, the stock rods are 5.7", and with the 2.8L crank I believe you will need 6" rods.

 

I disagree on the reasoning here. The motor already revs to 7150rpm without any problems once lightly modified, has been recorded running to 7600 with a modified intake manifold, and I will be turning mine to 8000rpm. All of these were/will be done on the stock crank. I think any power gained with the 2.8 crank transplant will be lost do to the reduce in stroke and compression. Destroking an engine is a thing of the past, the technology is out today that pretty much ANY rpm shy of 20,000 can be made, even on pushrod motors.

 

As for the rest of your article, looks great!

[topless94style]

For my car, since I went the turbo route, I opted not to go with the 2.8L crank to increase the RPMs, one reason was because at the time i did not know how to tune the computer for that high of rpms(dunno how high that crank could go), and because I have no idea where this turbo will top out at. If the turbo were to fall on its face around 5500-6000rpms, what use would it have been to me?

 

 

There are many areas I can continue on explaining more and more about, but I dont know where to start. I suppose since Aaron brought this up, we can look, civilly(sp?) and technically speaking to debate or research the idea of the crank hopefully to not get out of control and waste this thread away. I want it to work for the Newbs, and I want it to be a nice collection of information for the entire community.

[slick]

Aaron, you also have to remember, this engine isn't exactly a technical marvel. There are some things you have to do old school to do things more efficiently. I would have to agree with Topless on the 2.8 crank. I personally think it's the best bet to get power up to that 8000 mark, with nothing but NA.

[Aaron]

Aaron, you also have to remember, this engine isn't exactly a technical marvel. There are some things you have to do old school to do things more efficiently. I would have to agree with Topless on the 2.8 crank. I personally think it's the best bet to get power up to that 8000 mark, with nothing but NA.

 

We have a dyno of a 3.4 going to 7600rpm, pulling strong still, with just a new intake manifold. Imagine that with good headers and head work, 8000 would be easy. The only reason he couldn't go farther is because of the valve springs, he could no longer shim them down.

 

Also, it is impossible to go over 7150 rpms with the 91-93 ECU. THe amount of coding it would take to get around it is unimaginable. Ben told me flat out he wouldn't do it, for any price. You'd have to totally redo every single RPM value in the car, then redo the entire fuel map for every single value that the car can have, whether it be off the TPS, MAP, coolant temps, O2, etc.

[Guest TurboSedan]

i don't know anything about the LQ1, but it seems to have the rev/redline thing down to pat. it could use some torque though, and i don't see a 2.8 crank helping things much. i could see how a 3.1/3.4 pushrod engine could use a 2.8 crankshaft though.

[Aaron]

i don't know anything about the LQ1, but it seems to have the rev/redline thing down to pat. it could use some torque though, and i don't see a 2.8 crank helping things much. i could see how a 3.1/3.4 pushrod engine could use a 2.8 crankshaft though.

 

I actually think the 3.4 is very torquey from the factory, have a look at the dyno I put up, it is pretty flat, over 165 for the entire run. It just doesn't feel it becuz it picks up pretty hard at 3500. Compared to the 2.8 of mine, it makes more power/torque at any RPM, but the Fiero makes more hp/tq per pound up until about 3000-3500rpm.

 

I agree that a 2.8 crank would help the 3.1/3.4 OHV a lot!

[Vegeta]

You can go over 7150, but you can't tune anything past that without doing a whole lot of code work to rescale everything. You have to disable the limiter completely to go over 7150 with the 91-93 and maybe up to 95 DOHC computer.

[topless94style]

I ran through some math, in order to use the 2.8L crank and the stock pistons, or overbore pistons, you would need rods to be about 5.85" long. Sounds like it might be a custom thing. Or, you could use the stock rods, and change the compression height of the piston from the stock 1.4645 to 1.623. Which would require custom pistons. Changing only the rods would yield a rod/stroke ratio of 1.97:1, and changing the pistons using stock rods would have a ratio of 1.91:1 or so.

 

Through my research, I have seen that a 1.75:1 ratio is optimal, and at the same time i have seen that the higher the ratio the better. All this im sure you would have to do some calculations and graphing to determine piston speed and acceleration to see which would actually provide the best power on our motors. Something I plan to do in the near future and see what I can come up with.

 

Stock LQ1 motors have a 1.72:1 ratio, and according to those who say 1.75 is ideal, this is pretty damn good.

 

Overall, I would see a greater benefit of using the stock crank, with longer rods and custom pistons to suit. I dunno how far down the piston the oil ring sits, but that would determine how far up you could have the piston pin moved, and from there you could find the new rod length. Probably could move the top two rings up a little more to help with compression and preventing from things getting that much farther down the side of the piston, and maybe get away with puttin the piston pin between the second ring and moving the oil ring down a bit. Dunno sounds risky, but you could get a nice long stroke going on there.

 

Stock crank, you could MAYBE squeeze in 6" rods, but having the compression height at 1.16" might be a little too risky.

[slick]

I actually think the 3.4 is very torquey from the factory, have a look at the dyno I put up, it is pretty flat, over 165 for the entire run. It just doesn't feel it becuz it picks up pretty hard at 3500. Compared to the 2.8 of mine, it makes more power/torque at any RPM, but the Fiero makes more hp/tq per pound up until about 3000-3500rpm.

 

I agree that a 2.8 crank would help the 3.1/3.4 OHV a lot!

 

I with ya on this on Aaron. Maybe it's just because of my tranny, but my car definately has more tq than my 94 gp had. The 3100 felt as if it had more torque because its low end pulled better than my 3.4, but, this car can really move below, and definately above 3500 rpm.

 

2.8 crank in a 3.1 block with 3400 top end would be nice

[Aaron]

2.8 crank in a 3.1 block with 3400 top end would be nice

 

That would make for a pretty sweet setup, get a good valvetrain, make an intake manifold and headers, and run that fucker to 7000rpm all day long.

[z284pwr]

Also, it is impossible to go over 7150 rpms with the 91-93 ECU. THe amount of coding it would take to get around it is unimaginable. Ben told me flat out he wouldn't do it, for any price. You'd have to totally redo every single RPM value in the car, then redo the entire fuel map for every single value that the car can have, whether it be off the TPS, MAP, coolant temps, O2, etc.

 

If your going to that extent and modifying the engine that much there is such thing as an aftermarket programmable EMS, they are quite convinient if your not worried to much about drivability and tuning is much easier to figure out. You can easily get to 16,000 RPM or so then. Datalogging, tuning, possible inputs for wideband, trim control tuning, etc. etc. all available then :shock:

[DaveFromColorado]

yeah, I heard* but haven't confirmed that AEM-EMS is working on a GM setup, I know that Haltech already has with the Haltech EK6-GM (but I don't like the haltech customer support)

 

if I could set up an LQ1 to run with the AEM setup, with a custom intake manifold, turbocharged, I would, but it would also require a lot of extra money for the sensors I'd set up, as the AEM can take the inputs from up to I believe 8 EGT gauages and two W/B O2 sensors, which I would take full advantage of, also I have heard that the drivability with the AEM system is ideal for street use.

 

as for de-stroking the motor down with the 2.8 crank, this wouldn't make much sense as you would lose some of the stroke which is what gets you that extra displacement, rather then destroking, and using different rods and pistons, I'd use a stock piston/rod measurements, but work the top of the piston to create a better quench area in the top of the cylinder, I'd also have gas ports in the top ring-land to help prevent raising that ringland in the case of a fuel malfunction (IE: running too lean due to a bad injector)

 

I've also thought about removing all the electronic crap from the engine, and fitting a destributor into the engine, and making a custom carburetor intake manifold for the engine, running three 2bbl Mikuni carb's but I'm still at a loss for how to get the destributor into the engine with the head in the way.

 

--Dave.

[Aaron]

Well you may be able to trim the head enough to fit a distributor, but it'd be tough, and you'd have to make new coolant lines out of the head to clear the distributor. But I think it could be done, and it'd be a unique approach, but IMHO not nearly worth the effort.

[DaveFromColorado]

I think I'm gonna start lookin' for an LQ1 to play with to see what I can do about making something like that happen - if I could get an engine with that setup to run on an engine stand, I'm sure making it run in the car wouldn't be that* dificult, but it would have to be a manual nearly for sure, as the older non-E transmissions surely couldn't handle the torque from a setup like that.

 

--Dave.

[88Regal Limited]

So why dont you just put in the 2.8 crank and overbore the pistons so it is still a 3.4 but better revving ability? (still learning here....) And where in the hell would you find a cam that wouldent fall flat on it's face at 8,000 rpm's?

[Aaron]

So why dont you just put in the 2.8 crank and overbore the pistons so it is still a 3.4 but better revving ability? (still learning here....) And where in the hell would you find a cam that wouldent fall flat on it's face at 8,000 rpm's?

 

The first statement is just stupid. The factory already has it setup to where it will rev to 7k, bolt on mods and it will pull strong to redline, we have seen a 3.4 go to 7400, making tremendous power the entire way, and I will be running to 8---All on the stock crank. Destroking it will do nithing but rob power.

 

As for your second statement, I don't even understand what you're trying to say...

[GP1138]

So why dont you just put in the 2.8 crank and overbore the pistons so it is still a 3.4 but better revving ability? (still learning here....) And where in the hell would you find a cam that wouldent fall flat on it's face at 8,000 rpm's?

 

The first statement is just stupid. The factory already has it setup to where it will rev to 7k, bolt on mods and it will pull strong to redline, we have seen a 3.4 go to 7400, making tremendous power the entire way, and I will be running to 8---All on the stock crank. Destroking it will do nithing but rob power.

 

As for your second statement, I don't even understand what you're trying to say...

 

You don't have to be such a dick about it, Aaron, he even said he's still just learning.

[Robby1870]

So why dont you just put in the 2.8 crank and overbore the pistons so it is still a 3.4 but better revving ability? (still learning here....) And where in the hell would you find a cam that wouldent fall flat on it's face at 8,000 rpm's?

 

 

As for your second statement, I don't even understand what you're trying to say...

 

He's trying to say a powerband is largely dependent on the cam specs....something you should well know.

 

BTW....Regal.........its not really a safe thing to bore a 2.8/3.1L block out to 3.4 liters. And, ignoreAaron's offensive post

[DaveFromColorado]

the 3.4 doesn't have the longest stroke in the world, so that's not a real issue here anyhow - the rod length is still pretty good too (makes good torque)

 

the Cam's (remember there's 4 cam's in this engine, not just 1) in the LQ1 Engines are good for the higher RPM's, it's the rest of the heavy valvetrain that will cause you to have problems like valve float, but with that issue corrected, it should pull pretty high, pretty easily.

 

so anyhow, I did my lower intake manifold gasket on saturday, and I was looking right at the infamous oil pump drive o-ring, and wow they made that easy to get at on our engines... it's right there, open and available - but because that was too easy, they put the one tab for the LIM bolt right in the way - so pulling the head is somethin' needed to do to fix that problem (the GM way)

 

I still have to do a little invistigating, but I really want to see if I can make this engine run with a carb/distributor setup and get rid of ALL the electrical crap in it. I gotta figure out what distributors will cross over to this engine, to see if MSD makes one, because I'd truly like to run a full MSD setup (distributor/ignition/timing control/revlimit/window switches for trans control)

 

I've pretty much got it all planned out in my mind how I want it to work right now, and I could see it working fairly well, as I've got full access to a good machine shop to put somethin' together.

 

Either that, or I'll take my multi-length runner idea, and run with that.

 

--Dave

[Aaron]

the Cam's (remember there's 4 cam's in this engine, not just 1) in the LQ1 Engines are good for the higher RPM's, it's the rest of the heavy valvetrain that will cause you to have problems like valve float, but with that issue corrected, it should pull pretty high, pretty easily.

--Dave

 

The cams are not good for high rpm, not in the least. It's a wonder the can even hit 7000rpm. The cams are made for midrange power, as is the intake manifold.

 

But we have proven that with extensive bolt ons, we can make it pull to 7, with minimal drop off. In order to surpass 7000, something needs to be done with the intake manifold, and the cams need to be adjusted to custom specs at the very least, but a regrind would be much better.

[DaveFromColorado]

I thought the cams were okay for high-end.. (guess I was wrong)

 

now I wonder if we could get some cam blanks for this engine to have some truly custom cams cut...

 

--Dave.

[Robby1870]

what? spam?