brian89gp Posted February 1, 2003 Report Share Posted February 1, 2003 Can anybody try to explain how the TGP shifts compared to a non-TGP 440T4/4T60? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 Its hard to explain. But there is a difference. The modulation on the TGP trans is alot more progressive, since the car can build boost. IE, TV pressure VS line pressure seems to have an effect on the shift quality more in the TGP, it will be much harder than on an NA car with more TV pressure. This could be why NA 4t60's burn out faster on a TGP, the clutches probably slip more between shifts at the same throttle positions, since they are not being applied as firmly. Other than that the shift points may be differnt, but I never compared them that closely. The biggest thing I noticed was shift modulation. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dykz34 Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 Do the TGPs have boost going to the vaccum modulator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 No, theres a one-way valve in the vac line that vents off the boost. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dykz34 Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 Someone should try applying boost to it, Ive heard that it will firm up the shifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 Yeah and blow the tranny apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 so your saying the TH440T4/4T60 from the TGPs is diffrent than my 4T60 of my 3.1L NA?? If that is true, if my tranny goes out, would it be better or even possible to get one from a TGP instead of the stock replacement. Just curious. -Robby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted February 2, 2003 Report Share Posted February 2, 2003 It will bolt up, but will it work correctly? I'm not sure. The TGP has a different torque convertor, and a different valve body. I don't know how these changes will effect drivibility on a NA motor. Of course, you'd have to find a TGP trans first...and it will probably need a rebuild anyway. Although, if your trans breaks a rebuild will almost bring it back to new again, in fact it will probably make it better than new. I doubt the 4T60/440T4 is so weak that a NA motor could break it if the driver treats it good. If it's driven correctly, there shouldn't be a problem. In fact, I think %75 of trans failures have to do with the driver...not the transmission. Things like: -Putting it in to drive while rolling backwards -Doing high speed runs (the 440T4/4T60 has a very weak 4th clutch) -Letting the trans lines leak and running with low fluid -Neutral drops -Towing -Letting simple problems/complaints balloon in to bigger ones. -Putting it in to 1st during launch because it feels faster (it's not--either way it starts out in 1st gear) These things are bad for the transmission. I've replaced a lot of transmissions in peoples cars who said "I did this...and now its broken". Yes, the 440T4/4T60 isn't a super strong transmission, and it has it's design flaws, but it goes the job done. If you put it in drive and go, it will last a long time. You see people all the time getting 200k out of their cars, with no trans problems. Of course, that doesn't account for a lemon, or the lack of care the previous owner provided. I suggest for NA guys, when your transmisison dies, get it rebuilt at a good shop, with quality parts, and have them apply the TransGo shift kit modifier. This kit fixes a lot of common 440T4/4T60 problems, and can provide a nice firm shift. It won't be cheap, but in the long run you'll be much more satisfied. TGP guys can use the same kit--until Jeff M releases his TGP trans rebuild kits. I think the best term I've ever heard about transmission care is "Drive it like you don't own it". And I mean be nice, not treat it like a rental car. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 oh yeah I know what you mean, man its not a bad tranny, if you treat it good. I was just wondering what the difference were. Cuz Im pretty sure the 4T60 for NA cars can only handle like 280lb/ft. And if I ever did turbo or supercharge(from RSM), my motor, Im more than sure the tranny would not handle it. And I dont think a 4T65E HD will bolt up. So, I would need a tranny that would handle more torque. Could I rebuild mine with TGP Torque Converter and Valve body?? And where can I get this shift kit, I have looked everywhere for one and cant find it. I would really like to the shift kit to firm up my shifts. And are any higher quality parts for a rebuild made?? Like clutch disks and so on.......again just curious. -Robby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 Well, if you wanted to get a trans to handle a bit of power (because of SC/turbo) then a TGP trans would be the way to go. But it WILL NEED to be rebuilt/freshened up. If it's not, you will be pulling it out soon after to do it anyhow. And since you've got $3k for the RSM supercharger...you can afford a $1500 trans rebuild. The shiftkit is a TransGo Shift Kit "JR" 4T60 / 440-T4 85-93. This kit is to be used during a rebuild only. This kit includes new redesigned seals, and some modifications to the valve body (drilling holes/new springs/plugging holes)...everything works together in this kit to make an improvment on the 440T4. Thats why it is to be used during rebuild only. As for clutches...I hear the Borg Warner clutches are pretty good, and thats what I'm using. Apparently Raybestos makes some for the 440T4/4T60, but I think the Borg Warner are a little better. I also replaced all of the accumulator piston springs, and the servo piston springs. My turbo trans always chips into 2nd at full throttle, and is a nice firm shift into 2nd and 3rd when there is more than 20% throttle--less firmness below 20% throttle. And with 5k miles on it, I checked everything last night. The synthetic fluid looks great, and it still smells like the day I put it in (synthetic has a very distinctive smell). It's not burnt at all, and the trans still works like the day I rebuilt it. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZMonte Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 Yeah and blow the tranny apart. I guess i will cross that bridge when the time comes Worse case senario i will add a checkvalve and bleed off the boost before the it gets to the tranny. RedZ 1995 Monte Carlo Z34 (Trubo in progress) 1992 Z34 Lumina (3800 S/C) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 Hey Shane, I want pics or video of your first tranny detonating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 -eclipse5302 Thanks for all the info, that is some really good stuff to know and your right, that RSM S/C costs way too much, I was just saying I would like to go with forced induction some day. Another question: My car has 87K on it, when should I do a tranny rebuild if ever?? I would like to keep it fresh and stuff, and dont want to completely break on me at some point. I do drive it hard sometimes. What do you think?? -Robby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalor Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 When I bought my TGP the previous owner had a regular 4T60 put in it. It lasted about 4,000 or so until it literally exploded. I took out a spider gear in the differential when I was doing a burnout and it took the whole tranny case with it. I mean there is literally a huge piece of the case on the rear of the tranny that is broken off. I went back to the scene after getting my car home and I picked up pieces of my tranny in the road. The half a spider gear if my favorite momento. TGPs and regular 4T60s do not mix!! :x I believe that NA 4T60 are only rated at 230 or so ft/lbs of torque, and not 280. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robby1870 Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 I think you are right about those torque ratings, that would make sense, all I had ever seen or heard was the 4T60 was rated at 280ft/lbs. I really dont want to blow my tranny, I am planning a lot of mods this summer. 1.6 rockers, cold air intake, computer chip from FFP, maybe port and polish the intake manifolds, on top of my current mods (see my sig.). I would hate to hit that 230ft/lb mark and not have a car. So basically, if I these mods, I should have it rebuilt with TGP 4T60 parts and shift kit?? -Robby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 When I bought my TGP the previous owner had a regular 4T60 put in it. It lasted about 4,000 or so until it literally exploded. I took out a spider gear in the differential when I was doing a burnout and it took the whole tranny case with it. I mean there is literally a huge piece of the case on the rear of the tranny that is broken off. I went back to the scene after getting my car home and I picked up pieces of my tranny in the road. The half a spider gear if my favorite momento. TGPs and regular 4T60s do not mix!! :x I believe that NA 4T60 are only rated at 230 or so ft/lbs of torque, and not 280. Burnouts are not good for any FWD trans. The moment both wheels stop spinning you're not far from trouble. What happens is when only one wheel is spinning, the spider gears inside the differential are spinning extremely fast on the spider gear pins. There are no bearings on the spider gears, so the only bearing is the trans fluid. And as soon as one spider gets really hot and welds itself to the pin, it's goodbye trans. I've seen it many times. Thats why I don't do burnouts/heat up the tires on my TSTE. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 -eclipse5302 Thanks for all the info, that is some really good stuff to know and your right, that RSM S/C costs way too much, I was just saying I would like to go with forced induction some day. Another question: My car has 87K on it, when should I do a tranny rebuild if ever?? I would like to keep it fresh and stuff, and dont want to completely break on me at some point. I do drive it hard sometimes. What do you think?? -Robby Well, you've only got 87k miles. I'd say it will be all good for a while. Maybe around 150k or so... But if it works fine, and you drive it nicely, it'll last for some time. If it's treated nice, and it develops a problem, it usually won't be completely broken right away. Giving you some time to find a replacement. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 I've got 176,000 miles on my TGP and I've never had a problem with the tranny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skalor Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Yeah, I know that burnouts are pretty much one of the worst things that you can do to a FWD tranny, but it's so hard to resist. It's OK anyways, because the tranny never worked right. Plus, I checked the tranny code when I first got it and it's not a TGP tranny anyways, so it probably would not have lasted much longer anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 No, it probably wouldn't have lasted. And I agree, burnouts are hard to resist sometimes. Even though I try very hard to avoid them, sometimes little ones do happen. hehe Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ismellrealbad Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 little ones like these right? http://www.turboste.com/images/burnout.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Haha That was a while ago. And that was a small burnout...as soon as the tires started spinning I let off of the brakes. But I'm talking about long burnouts like this: Since I put all this time and cash in to my TSTE with the engine/trans rebuild, now I take a little better care of it. It strange, but even though my car could handle doing things like that much better now, I'm afraid to do it. Maybe because I've seen the insides of the trans and I've got a much better understanding of how it works--and whats bad for it. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboGTU Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 How about my 3t40 3 speed on the Beretta, is it sturdy enough to do that kind of burnout? Every time I go to the track , the dam track cru tell me to go into the water pits, and do a smoky burnout. I have Gforce tires and they hook up realy good even on water(whole lot better than the gaterbacks and cornells i had-which broke traction even N/A on dry ground). They will only break tracktion if I use the e-brake, or if I accendenly do a nutral drop. I know I dont need to do the water box, they will get water in your treads and will make you loose traction in the hole, and street tires don't need JOHN FORCE BURNOUTS, they will just heat up the tires and make them more prone to explosion-not to metion miles of tread wasted. Dam stupid track cru... Any ways how much HP/TQ till it crys uncle? It doen't have the weak 4th band. Vans use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse5302 Posted February 10, 2003 Report Share Posted February 10, 2003 I've heard they are pretty weak. Although I have no personal expeirence with them at this point. Oh well, use it till it breaks. And stay away from large burnouts, thats a sure fire way to gernade your trans. And those track guys aren't too smart are they? Burnouts in the water box with raidal tires only distributes the water all over the track. You will gain a bit of hook-up on launch, but it's not really needed unless you are having a problem with tire spin. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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