Jeff M Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Oh damn me, I kept thinking I was supposed to ground that connector, not power it.. I think I was thinking of the RKE programmer wire And the pump definetly isn't running at all when I turn the key "on," and there was no pressure behind the Schradder valve. But you've confirmed my thoughts on the ECM/wiring then.. this may sound odd but with any luck, it's only the ECM. I'm sick of tracking down wiring problems in this car, and maybe a new ECM would fix a handful of other problems as well. Where exactly is the oil pressure switch? doesn't seem to be the problem but I can't recall ever seeing it, maybe I just don't remember though.. is in near the oil cooler/filter? No problem, easy to miss think the wires, grounding a wire that is hanging is safer then power in most times 8) Ahh, no pump with a Key-On Cycle?...that's interesting, you can always swap a relay from over on the passenger's side, the Secondary Fan or AC Relay are good for just tests. Without looking at a diagram, can't remember if this wire test connector bypasses the fuse/relay, somethign I can look at later today after I get some of that stupid sleep . The other thing is to unbolt the Fuel Pump Relay/ECM Fuse Housing from the strut tower, flip it over and make sure the connections look good in there, easy to check and a good idea since the gremlins are hard at work holding back the fun from happening. The Oil Pressure Switch feeds the Oil Pressure Gauge too, anything odd with it?....the circuits are separate internally but just wondering. It is located down below the AC coming off the side of the engine oil cooler that is behind the oil filter, sounds like you know that area 8) , so head on down It is a long round sensor with a 3 (4?) prong wire connector, always be nice when lifting the connector tabs, all of these are a bit brittle from the age and heat. There is a special tool to take these off OR some that do not and I would just find an open end wrench that fits and either cut it short enough to it allows you to turn the sensor off with it or knowing the size of the wrench opening, get a stubby from some place like Sears/Crapsman Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutlessSupreme Posted June 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Alrighty. Upates. Went down the street this morning.. turn the key; the pump came on. so like dubya tee eff. jumped it from the Cutlass (batt. was near dead by this point) and it made it up the street. Worked on some other odds and ends that needed to be done (interior stuff, STB, etc.), then got around to swapping in the Cutlass ECM. Started no problem, but after about a minute it stalled once. Kinda got me thinking that the ECM wasn't the problem. Then I thought about it later and thought perhaps it just did it because I didn't idle relearn, so I figured it was fine. So I figured I'd be all right, and took it for a drive around town about an hour later. All seemed well. On my way back, however, it decided to die on me again. got it to roll off to the side while I still had momentum and let it sit for a minute. Turned the key - heard the pump prime. Tried starting - started for 1/2 a second then stumbled and died. Started repeatedly turning the key for another few minutes (waiting a key secs in between each turn) trying to get the pump to prime again. I still don't remember ever hearing it again, but it must have because I finally tried starting again and it turned on. It seemed like it the rpms were dropping again so I gave it a little gas and it stayed put. At this point I finally though to take a look at the oil pressure gauge. Now, my cluster is experiencing a ginormous case of clusterfuck, so who knows if this even matters (though it seems it does). With my foot on the gas and the engine actually having a load, the gauge read a fairly healthy ~60 PSI. As the rpms dropped, however, so did the oil gauge... dipping down to around 20 at idle and at speed with low rpms/no load. Other info: Car was starting to overheat (~240, but I know these engines can take that.. Cutlass did for a whole day) because the primary fan had a bad connection and I was stuck in stop and go traffic on the highway coming home. When I got home, I threw a paper clip in the ALDL connector quick to at least get the intercooler fan moving (don't know why it wasn't on anyway) and tried hardwiring the primary, until I fiddled with the connector a bit and it kicked on. Pulled the dipstick - oil level was a good half inch above the "operating range" crosshatch area. Is this more likely to be because of the heat? Or could there just be too much oil in the car? And would too much oil cause a loss of pressure like I was experiencing? When at WOT (before overheat), car would start back firing like crazy once the RPMs got up high enough. Does boost cut kill fuel or spark? Can't remember. Still have two rockers that are down the tightest they should.. but... 1.6 rockers, TG160 chip, 3.4 DOHC injectors (23#?), possibly a half-shot Bosch O2. My plugs *may* be the wrong ones (I forget the part number - Napa said the ones listed on the TGP forums had been superceeded but other members have said they bought the old number recently. Also, they're gapped to .045. I think I've read they should be .035 with the TG160? Sorry for the novel So, trying to figure out: -Why fuel pump keeps turning off - may be an oil pressure problem or just a sensor problem -Why it's back-firing and losing power at high RPMs @ WOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp90se Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 what in gods name did u do 2 my poor car It isnt the fuel pump, relay or in take wiring, all that was replaced by me before you got the car. try putting the stock chip back in for shits and giggles and see how it runs, the chip you have isnt a TGP160, its out of danes car and might be causing you other issues. if you havent changed the oil since I had it, theres exaxtly 4.5 quarts of oil in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Well, still go me thinking that one of the things is/was the ECM One of the conditions you were good at detailing was the stalling after driving, that one is typical of either poor wires for the power and ground and/or low ohm injectors. Here is a web site to check the injectors without having to remove the plenum: http://www.turbograndprix.com/FixIt.htm Just need an ohm meter, $15 from radio shack! But I would ask if the engine shut down was while driving at cruise speeds or only when coming to a stop, being at a stop??? Oil pressure readings are normal, that oil level is a little up there, should not be causing all these problems, swap in a new (empty/no oil added to it) oil filter then recheck oil level, add to bring back up to the fill line, keep going! Sputtering at WOT can be looked at after other things are fixed (see injector test above)…BUT one thing is to gap the proper plugs at .040†right now, proper plugs are R42LTS, no platinums!!! NGK Iridium TR5IX/7397 if you want to spend more money, but save it for making this run right first!! As I recall, the part number for the 3400 DOHC Engine VIN Code “X†runs the same 22 lb injectors we do. You got to fix the fans, skip the fluff and get to the stuff, remove and flip over the passenger side fuse panel and correct the loose connections there, 240 is not good, seen/heard of too many warped aluminum heads even if your Cutty got lucky. No worries on the lengthy details, keep it to the facts and these details will make it much easier to fix things up now, and less of a frustration for the guy(s) helping . (update, chip type unknown??? get an idea off the MEMCAL what one it is before you risk more troubles or helper time And 4.5 quarts is a good fill level, recheck oil level after engine has sat, wipe stick off then stab into the engine and then check the oil level) Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 How are the coil packs and ICM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 have someone check the fuel pump connector with a multimeter when you turn the key on. are you getting voltage there for 1-2 seconds? it could just be a bad fuel pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp90se Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 pump doesnt have 1k miles on it, and the 1 before that didnt last more then a year, gotta be an electral issue......or a kink in a fuel line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TurboSedan Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 could still be a bad/intermittent fuel pump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutlessSupreme Posted June 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 try putting the stock chip back in for shits and giggles and see how it runs, the chip you have isnt a TGP160, its out of danes car and might be causing you other issues. if you havent changed the oil since I had it, theres exaxtly 4.5 quarts of oil in it. I'd love to try, but I'll have to pick up another memcal to fuck with first.. I'm not unsodering then redoing that chip again. -------------- And do please make up your mind on the chip from Dan's car... Hey Jeff, can you just fill me in on the specs of the chip again? I can't remember what you'd said about it. TG160, EGR enabled, the chip was for danes car, but he went with another. what ya need 2 know bout it? ------------- And yes, I have done an oil change since then. Can't remember how much I put in. one is typical of either poor wires for the power and ground and/or low ohm injectors. Here is a web site to check the injectors without having to remove the plenum: http://www.turbograndprix.com/FixIt.htm power and ground wires aren't in the greatest of shape in general, but the cable itself is fine and shouldn't be the case here. And everything else is powered just fine. I will ohm test the injectors if I get a chance, but I do think the problem lies somewhere in line before the injectors. But I would ask if the engine shut down was while driving at cruise speeds or only when coming to a stop, being at a stop??? All of the above. Cruise speeds, coasting speeds, acceleration, idling, etc. Oil pressure readings are normal, that oil level is a little up there, should not be causing all these problems, swap in a new (empty/no oil added to it) oil filter then recheck oil level, add to bring back up to the fill line, keep going! Like I said, cluster is fubared.. but still, it's normal for it to flux up and down that much while driving? Sputtering at WOT can be looked at after other things are fixed (see injector test above)…BUT one thing is to gap the proper plugs at .040†right now, proper plugs are R42LTS, no platinums!!! Napa gave me R44 somethingorothers telling me the R42 got superceeded. Don't worry, didn't get platinums. How are the coil packs and ICM? Perfecto & definetly not the problem. no1kicker used them to diagnose his own coilpack problems - all mine were in good shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herb427sc Posted June 13, 2005 Report Share Posted June 13, 2005 The plugs are still available.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutlessSupreme Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 It's dead. More later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp90se Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 i call dibs on the wheels IM me later or im calling you tonight, the hell happend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutlessSupreme Posted June 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 I have no idea. Either lean or overboost. 7x4 section of the block is gone, right under the coilpacks. I pulled the piston pin and pieces of rings out of the pan with a magnet... it'll be a few days before I drop the pan and see the rest of the carnage. Expect a large for sale list going up soon.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp90se Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Some cars just dont want to live, seems like this was one of them. Good luck on whatever you end up doing with the car, if you do deciede the engine swap isnt a bad idea, i have a cherry picker and a 15mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff M Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Some cars just dont want to live, seems like this was one of them. Good luck on whatever you end up doing with the car, if you do deciede the engine swap isnt a bad idea, i have a cherry picker and a 15mm. Respectfully said 8) I too wish I could help, I feel for you man, I hate when I hear this sort of stuff happen to an owner!! This is why I try (maybe for the next guy reading here!!! ) to get the owner to never push a poor running car, soon as it complains then whatever is still not fixed, is not fixed, keep asking for help and looking for the problem, its there, these ran great once and can again. Since your spark plugs were gapped too large, and 2 heat ranges too hot, could have been a contributor if your foot was into it too long/was detonation. Other things I have seen are over-revving that throws these engines into pieces, not their fault, hell they are torque monsters like the Syclone and Typhoons (if they only has AWD) but they are not setup to handle this nor do they go faster with higher rpms stock. Take a step back and get away from it, good idea and that is what turby did when his baby was smashed, he took like a year off then came back refreshed (best he could) and did a super strip job with the best show of pics I ever seen :shock: then is doing a swap into another car . All up to you what you do, and how long you want it there haunting you . Peace man, sorry for the failure! Jeff M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herb427sc Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 Tough break, Tony. Put a NA 3.1 in it until you can find another Turbo Motor. There is a 91 SE near me for sale. Decent Tan leather buckets, 3.1 auto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1kicker Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 That sucks. I saw a black one for sale if you're interested in another one at some point. Also give me a call if you need a hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutlessSupreme Posted June 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 That sucks. I saw a black one for sale if you're interested in another one at some point. Also give me a call if you need a hand. Really? Any details/location/pics? And will do... I'm still contemplating what to do. On the one hand, it's been nothing but stress for me, but all because it was part of a learning experience. On the other hand, the more I look at it, the more I decide I can't part with the way this car looks, or the options it has, etc... can't beat it for the price range, that's for sure. Plus, I would've been pulling the engine for the 5 speed swap this summer anyway.. We'll see if I can find any lower milaged 3.1s around here. This thing just hit ~140k miles, maybe I can get lucky and find a 70k mile motor... I should be able to reuse everything, the only things that got damaged were the block, probably a piston/rod (probably the crank too), and the starter pretty much got grenaded from block shrapnel... though I am worried about the turbo. I kept starting to find oil covering the inlet of the compressor housing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gp90se Posted June 17, 2005 Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 3.1s are a dime a dozen. if you want ill find ya a low milage 3.1 for cheap (yard I do a lotta business with), put on a set of thinker head gaskets (and/or send the TGP heads out 2 be worked) throw all the turbo crap on. it will hold, no question in my mind. running with lower compression and ~12psi you'll have plenty of power to play with. You will regret parting out the car, and an engine swap wont take long. I will be in PA for a week, but when I get back I can come up for a day and we can make it happen. Up to you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted June 17, 2005 Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 :( Sorry to hear that. What exactly happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1kicker Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 The black TGP is for sale in NY about 5 hours away. Not too close but close enough. Car looks just ok, if you want pics PM me your email. I don't know if you want to even look at a TGP right now... In terms of a starter, use the lighter 3100 starter, probably get one cheap on ebay/JY. I'm not sure what your plans are for the car, but I would keep the polished items that you worked on. If the car needs a new engine anyways, might as well start pulling the old one. Then you can decide if you want to sell or drop a new one in. And if you need some $$ or whatever, come over and help me put my rockers in next weekend. I just need some motivation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1kicker Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=2309242&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GutlessSupreme Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=2309242&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1 OH MY GOD There's no way I'll be able to afford it.. it's in way too nice of shape for me to be able to outbid anybody. Plus I'd have to lose my current one asap.. mom would just about castrate me if I even brought up the idea of getting another car. I really want that car though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intlcutlass Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 Rebuild it!!! Get a 3100 block so you can use the roller valvetrain..... Then install the getrag..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.