oldman Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 i have seen the caddy v8 in a Lumina but has anyone done a 5.0 or 5.7?If so what would I need to do the swap?Anyone that knows of a parts list and instructions on swap let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 1, 2005 Report Share Posted June 1, 2005 No one has done it without converting to RWD. Tranny bolt pattern is different, and the water pump, timing cover, crank pulley, and accessories will not fit width-wise. To keep it FWD, you will need a FWD V8 because it will have a specially designed timing cover and flatter pulleys. The PS pump, compressor, and alternator will be set back more to give enough room to fit between the frame rails. Right now the Caddy 4.9 V8's are the only easily available engines, but an 05+ 5.3L LS4 V8 out of a Grand Prix GXP should fit. I don't know how much GM would charge for a new one, probably $4000-5000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euro Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 i met a guy who had a LT1 project for his lumina, with an "A-Frame" all ready to go....but no he's still got the 3.1, with a hugemongous cherrybomb painted black sticking a good 5 inches out from his bumper, not to mention all the SUper Street signs and rice shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 I remember seeing a Pontiac 6000 with a 5.0 V8 on TV once, it was an actual Chevy block, had the centerbolt valvecovers and all. Are those engine bays that much bigger than the W bay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoideraserb Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 my A-Body "The pont. 6Ks are A-body too" 92 Centry has a good bita of room in between the 3.3 and the framerails, I always thought that the 3.3 was a 60degree but i found out yesterday that its is indeed a 90degree like the SBCs. And Also, yes the engine bay is lager on an A-Body than a W-Body, I had a 88 Cutlass Sup. SL and it was cramped with the 2.8 in there, but again my 3.3 has plenty of room in my A-Body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94CutlassSLCoupe Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 i remember seeing pics on here of a lumina concept that had a 305 in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfewtrail Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 i remember seeing pics on here of a lumina concept that had a 305 in it http://www.w-body.com/images/LuminaV-8.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manitcor Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 also check out http://www.ls1swap.com The 5.7 LS1 has been swapped in mated to a t65 for FWD in the past. It can be done but like any big swap its not cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 2, 2005 Report Share Posted June 2, 2005 You have to use a lot of LS4 parts to make the LS1 swap work, and also a ton of custom fabrication and huge expense. Not really worthwhile for .4L more than the LS4, I don't think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegp Posted June 3, 2005 Report Share Posted June 3, 2005 Not a W, but here's a 6000 with a small block: I snapped the picture years ago at the summer Canfield, OH swap meet. I can't remember what transmission was in it, but I'm sure that if you laid into the pedal at all, you'd destroy it. I do remember there was an adaptor plate between the engine & transmission. I wonder, too, how much wider the A-body engine compartment is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_e777 Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 i have seen the caddy v8 in a Lumina but has anyone done a 5.0 or 5.7?If so what would I need to do the swap?Anyone that knows of a parts list and instructions on swap let me know. check out milzymotorsports.com, im taking my `94 Cutlass Supreme SL up to them in a few weeks for an LS4 v8 swap. I talked to one of the dudes up there and said it would run about 7K for the engine and transmission and it would fit right in with no more modding than a 3800 would need. Im almost sure a Northstar out of a Bonneville or Aurora would be a good fit to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 check out milzymotorsports.com, im taking my `94 Cutlass Supreme SL up to them in a few weeks for an LS4 v8 swap. I talked to one of the dudes up there and said it would run about 7K for the engine and transmission and it would fit right in with no more modding than a 3800 would need. Im almost sure a Northstar out of a Bonneville or Aurora would be a good fit to. You do realize the post you just replied to was made in the year 2005, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtwmechanic Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 you could have at least humored 'em a little Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Ride Posted June 6, 2010 Report Share Posted June 6, 2010 How do you folks find all this old stuff? I could understand if you were searching for information and wanted to ask a question relating to this topic, but I'm pretty sure you only did it to get attention. And FWIW, a 3800 swap and any V8 swap would not even be on the same plane of difficulty level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 And FWIW, a 3800 swap and any V8 swap would not even be on the same plane of difficulty level. I'm not so sure it's that bad. LS4 appears to use very similar mounting locations to the 3.4 DOHC, and is probably similar in physical size/bulk. It's already been proven and verified by Fiero guys that the electronics are not that bad. $7k for an LS4 swap sounds pretty high considering good drop-outs complete with tranny and all accessories (sans wiring and PCM) can be found for around $1700, so maybe $2k with freight. $5k for labor sounds a bit high IMO. If I had the time, space, and a lot less things on my "to-do" list, I'd love to attempt the swap. I disagree that the Northstar is a good fit. They are ginormous. I know they can fit, but the heads are so big, a ton of stuff needs to be relocated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 I'm not so sure it's that bad. LS4 appears to use very similar mounting locations to the 3.4 DOHC, and is probably similar in physical size/bulk. It's already been proven and verified by Fiero guys that the electronics are not that bad. $7k for an LS4 swap sounds pretty high considering good drop-outs complete with tranny and all accessories (sans wiring and PCM) can be found for around $1700, so maybe $2k with freight. $5k for labor sounds a bit high IMO. If I had the time, space, and a lot less things on my "to-do" list, I'd love to attempt the swap. I disagree that the Northstar is a good fit. They are ginormous. I know they can fit, but the heads are so big, a ton of stuff needs to be relocated. Yes, but there is one VERY good reason for a northstar over an LS4. 4T80E. Unless you want to bolt one onto an LS4 instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 Yes, but there is one VERY good reason for a northstar over an LS4. 4T80E. Unless you want to bolt one onto an LS4 instead. I'm sure the 4T80-E is well needed on a 4000lb Bonneville, but is it really necessary in a smaller and lighter W-body? Even with tranny-preserving torque management, an LS4 w/4T65-E manages a very respectable 5.6s 0-60, over a second less than a Northstar with 4T80-E. For an engine swap, the 4T65-E makes things significantly easier because there's no need to modify the subframe for the bigger tranny. I'm not seeing it as a drawback at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 (edited) I'm sure the 4T80-E is well needed on a 4000lb Bonneville, but is it really necessary in a smaller and lighter W-body? Even with tranny-preserving torque management, an LS4 w/4T65-E manages a very respectable 5.6s 0-60, over a second less than a Northstar with 4T80-E. For an engine swap, the 4T65-E makes things significantly easier because there's no need to modify the subframe for the bigger tranny. I'm not seeing it as a drawback at all. The Bonneville is just shy of 3800 pounds, and the GP GXP is 3450lbs. That's a difference of 350 pounds. Not exactly astronomic, but I doubt its going to make a difference in the transmission's reliability. The 4T65E-HD cannot handle the power from the LS4 for very long, and it has been proven. Its like supercharging a stock L27 bottom end. In 30k miles, it will blow. There's a thread on mymonte.com regarding the Monte SS with the LS4. The purpose of the thread is for people to post when their 4T65E blew. The mileage ranges, but its pretty pathetic. The simpl fact is that the 4T65E cannot handle the LS4. The 4T80E CAN handle the N* and probably could handle the LS4. Also, the 0-60 time of 1 second less is also considering the 350 pound weight difference, a significant difference in weight distribution, and the fact that the GP GXP has 255's up front while the Bonneville GXP has 235's up front. There was a guy a while back on this forum who built a dual engine cutlass. IIRC, he posted pictures of a 4T65E, a 4T65E built by ZZP, and a 4T80E, and the 4T80E was massively bigger, beefier, and capable than the ZZP built transmission. If GM decided the N* needed the 4T80E, how do you figure they decided the LS4 could do with the 4T65E-HD? Cost is my only guess. Edit...FOUND IT! http://mymonte.com/discussion/topic/28646-how-well-has-your-tranny-held-up/ Edited June 7, 2010 by xtremerevolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 I hadn't heard about the un-reliability of the 4T65-E behind the LS4! That does make the swap seem less exciting - who can afford to replace a tranny every few miles? It sounds almost as bad as the Duo-Select on Maserati Quattroportes. Putting a 4T80-E behind an LS4 is probably not the simplest thing to do. I don't think it's a simple bolt-on for the fact the LS4 has an LS4-specific 4T65-E tranny casing with the starter mount on the bellhousing. Adapting a 4T80-E to an LS4 would require modifying the bellhousing of the 4T80 to accommodate the starter. Someone who's really good at welding cast aluminum could probably do it, but I don't think that would include your average home mechanic. Then there's the modifications to the subframe and who knows what else required to get the 4T80-E to fit a first-gen W-body. I think there's a forum member with a Northstar in a Monte that has done it, but I thought it was quite a bit of work. I thought, however, that 4T80-E does fit a 2nd gen without too much trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtremerevolution Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 I hadn't heard about the un-reliability of the 4T65-E behind the LS4! That does make the swap seem less exciting - who can afford to replace a tranny every few miles? It sounds almost as bad as the Duo-Select on Maserati Quattroportes.Putting a 4T80-E behind an LS4 is probably not the simplest thing to do. I don't think it's a simple bolt-on for the fact the LS4 has an LS4-specific 4T65-E tranny casing with the starter mount on the bellhousing. Adapting a 4T80-E to an LS4 would require modifying the bellhousing of the 4T80 to accommodate the starter. Someone who's really good at welding cast aluminum could probably do it, but I don't think that would include your average home mechanic. Then there's the modifications to the subframe and who knows what else required to get the 4T80-E to fit a first-gen W-body. I think there's a forum member with a Northstar in a Monte that has done it, but I thought it was quite a bit of work. I thought, however, that 4T80-E does fit a 2nd gen without too much trouble. I didn't know the LS4 had a special bellhousing. I suppose that explains a few things. I talked to the guy at the meet with the N* Monte, and he had aftermarket radiator fans on the outside of the radiator, and the swap was done by someone else. He changed the head gaskets himself, which is why he had the engine out. It required a complete custom ECM and separate transmission controller. The engine needs a tune badly as it runs pig rich and has a pretty weak low RPM torque range because of it. Does sound badass though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 I didn't know the LS4 had a special bellhousing. I suppose that explains a few things. I talked to the guy at the meet with the N* Monte, and he had aftermarket radiator fans on the outside of the radiator, and the swap was done by someone else. He changed the head gaskets himself, which is why he had the engine out. It required a complete custom ECM and separate transmission controller. The engine needs a tune badly as it runs pig rich and has a pretty weak low RPM torque range because of it. Does sound badass though. i can get around both of those obstacles by using a pair of GM OBD1 ECMs for less than $100... rather than spending 3 grand combined(if not more) on a aftermarket ECM and TCI trans controller... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GnatGoSplat Posted June 7, 2010 Report Share Posted June 7, 2010 i can get around both of those obstacles by using a pair of GM OBD1 ECMs for less than $100... rather than spending 3 grand combined(if not more) on a aftermarket ECM and TCI trans controller... I know the LS4 is not that bad, electronics-wise. The stock PCM will do the job. I forgot the name of the program, but it's possible to edit VATS out of the LS4 PCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy Posted June 8, 2010 Report Share Posted June 8, 2010 Yes, but there is one VERY good reason for a northstar over an LS4. 4T80E. Unless you want to bolt one onto an LS4 instead. the 4t65e-HD acts no different then in does behind the L67......if you beat the shit out your car on a regular basis, you will need to replace the trans after enough abuse...... ^^^^ keep that in mind after you l67 swap your regal.....if you beat romp on it as often after the swap like you do now, you will be needing a new tranny too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertISaar Posted June 8, 2010 Report Share Posted June 8, 2010 L27(3800 Series I) torque: 225 lb-ft L67(3800 Series IISC) torque: 280 lb-ft L37(Northstar 4.6HO) torque: 295 lb-ft LS4(FWD SBC Gen3) torque: 323 lb-ft ... need i say more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOT2B GM Posted June 8, 2010 Report Share Posted June 8, 2010 all automatics are garbage 4T80's included (ask me how I know) 284 swap and call it a day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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