Electric vacuum pump?

[joberlee]

I'm curious if anyone has done what I will be attempting on my TGP. I purchased my car midway through an engine swap. A few things are missing, including some vacuum lines and all of the check valves.

 

My thought is to eliminate all the check valves by operating all of the accessory vacuum lines off of an electric vacuum pump with a decent size vacuum canister attatched. So basically I could eliminate all but the MAP sensor EGR valve and wastegate vacuum lines from the engine.

 

I am not expecting an increase in power or performance, just a simpler way to fix my f'ed up vacuum lines. If anyone has any ideas on this please let me know.

 

Thanks, Joe

[Aaron]

I'm curious if anyone has done what I will be attempting on my TGP. I purchased my car midway through an engine swap. A few things are missing, including some vacuum lines and all of the check valves.

 

My thought is to eliminate all the check valves by operating all of the accessory vacuum lines off of an electric vacuum pump with a decent size vacuum canister attatched. So basically I could eliminate all but the MAP sensor EGR valve and wastegate vacuum lines from the engine.

 

I am not expecting an increase in power or performance, just a simpler way to fix my f'ed up vacuum lines. If anyone has any ideas on this please let me know.

 

Thanks, Joe

 

So use the water pump to create a vacuum instead of pulling water? At least for the few water pumps that I have been considering, they use the water as an oiling agent inside the pump to prevent scarring of the housing. Also, although I do not know this as fact, I doubt the pump will create enough vacuum to operate accessories. Also, most of the vacuum run lines are for proper enigne operation, and it is critical that they are run off of engine vacuum. So it could work, but it'd be more of a pita than just plugging the lines into the plenum.

[TurboGTU]

THe fuel pressure regulator, map and EGR HAVE to run on engine vacume. Cruse and Evap..can have a pump. THe cleanest install for vacume supply is to use the port on the back of the intake where N/A 3.1 use it for the brake booster. I rember someone mentioning a distribution block.

[Aaron]

THe fuel pressure regulator, map and EGR HAVE to run on engine vacume. Cruse and Evap..can have a pump. THe cleanest install for vacume supply is to use the port on the back of the intake where N/A 3.1 use it for the brake booster. I rember someone mentioning a distribution block.

 

Yah those are the ones. Is it worth it to buy, wire, and custom install a pump that might not last, let alone work? No, just buy a drill, tap, and a few brass fittings and go to town on your UIM. Or do what I did, and use a distribution block (My former MAP sensor).

[Guest TurboSedan]

I am not expecting an increase in power or performance, just a simpler way to fix my f'ed up vacuum lines. If anyone has any ideas on this please let me know.

 

Thanks, Joe

 

use a McMaster-Carr manifold distribution block (~$15). i use it on my GTS and i don't see any reason it couldn't be used on any other car. it's basically a 6-port block that is sourced from the intake manifold, and the ports can be used for MAP, FPR, BOV, boost gauge, MBC, etc. here is a pic of it on my GTS:

 

 

you can also get a shorter 4 port version, double sided versions, black andodized finish etc. (i went with a single sided block with nickel plated finish...6 ports are more than enough). as far as the ports go - from left to right: left end of block is the 90* fitting mounted directly to the intake manifold for vacuum/boost source. then from left to right: MAP source, FPR source, plug, BOV source, plug, and another plug. the right side of block is the nylon line going to my Autometer boost gauge. my MBC is sourced from the turbo compressor outlet straight to the MBC grainger valve but you can source a MBC from the manifold distribution block if you want. this simplifies EVERYTHING and looks good IMO.

 

i plan on doing this to the Turbo 3.1 in my Cutlass, by eliminating the EGR and making a custom made EGR blockoff plate (along with eliminating the EGR bung on the crossover pipe by welding it shut of course). then drill and tap a 3/8" NPT hole in plenum for a short 4-port single sided McMaster-Carr manifold distribution block, which would serve as a source for the MAP, FPR, and boost gauge. my BOV source on the other hand would be sourced from the automatic transmission vacuum modulator fitting on the other side of the TB, which i can use since i have a manual transmission. if you use an automatic, just source the BOV from the 4th fitting on the distribution block.

[Guest TurboSedan]

I rember someone mentioning a distribution block.

 

that would have been me

 

So use the water pump to create a vacuum instead of pulling water? At least for the few water pumps that I have been considering, they use the water as an oiling agent inside the pump to prevent scarring of the housing. Also, although I do not know this as fact, I doubt the pump will create enough vacuum to operate accessories. Also, most of the vacuum run lines are for proper enigne operation, and it is critical that they are run off of engine vacuum. So it could work, but it'd be more of a pita than just plugging the lines into the plenum.

 

water pump? what does that have to do with anything? you have alot to learn buddy.

[Guest TurboSedan]

or do what I did, and use a distribution block (My former MAP sensor).

 

let's see it then. i think you are full of it

[TurboGTU]

Oh yea . You posted it on Waskis' site too. Would love to eliminate that vacume plate on the TB and block it off..and use the back "brake booster" port for vacume distribution. Other than that...the PVC port...Im going PVC less..Damm leaky PVC . Before Jeff jumps on my hide...the front crank case port is going to the turbo intake.

[Jeff M]

Other than that...the PVC (pcv) port...Im going PVC (pcv) less..Damm leaky PVC (pcv) . Before Jeff jumps on my hide...the front crank case port is going to the turbo intake.

 

Here comes my feet at least I am not stomping as hard as others here what you talking bout? :? ...sure there are reasons 8) , just guessing on your intended setup but wanted to throw this out. PCV Valve is for evacuation of the crankcase when at idle, and the air supplied for it comes from the front crankcase tube hole. When under boost the PCV Valve closes and then evacuation is out the front crankcase tube hole into the air filter (box if stock), boost reverses the evacuation process on the crankcase. Does that sound good ?

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

I'm curious if anyone has done what I will be attempting on my TGP. I purchased my car midway through an engine swap. A few things are missing, including some vacuum lines and all of the check valves.

 

My thought is to eliminate all the check valves by operating all of the accessory vacuum lines off of an electric vacuum pump with a decent size vacuum canister attatched. So basically I could eliminate all but the MAP sensor EGR valve and wastegate vacuum lines from the engine.

 

I am not expecting an increase in power or performance, just a simpler way to fix my f'ed up vacuum lines. If anyone has any ideas on this please let me know.

 

Thanks, Joe

 

I think you are seeing from our guys that you need a vacuum setup and its not that difficult to achieve 8) . Also if you have an automatic tranny, you will need an Engine Load-Dependent Vacuum Source for it to shift proper, actually more than just shifting proper!!!!....AND the Vacuum Line Check Valve with bleed port on the Tranny Vacuum Modulator!!!! or you will be coming back to us with VERY HARSH shifts :x !!! That Vac Block is slick, go for it, and use of the hole in the back of the upper intake is perfect as a vacuum source!

 

Jeff M

[Aaron]

water pump? what does that have to do with anything? you have alot to learn buddy.

 

I don't know where in fuck I got that from, seriously. I thought he said somethingto the effect of "Can I use an electric water pump to pull a vacuum for my accessories?"

 

So I will admit I can't read I guess...lol

 

As for my clean distribution block, the 91-93 DOHC had the map sensor on the left side of the plenum. The MAP sensor itself just clips onto the distributuion block, which bolts to the UIM. It has 4 ports for vacuum lines on it, sourced by the UIM. So I just screwed this into the UIM like they did on 91-93s on my 96-97 mani, then used the fuel pres reg, MAP, and 2 other lines that I have not yet figured out where they go....I'll get a pic soon...

[joberlee]

Why would the trans modulator need load sensitive vacuum supply? If the original setup included a check valve to vent boost from the trans line then what would it matter what the vacuum source is? Electric vacuum pumps are very commonly used on large displacement engines with big cams to run brake boosters and on diesels to run all vacuum operated accessories. I was thinking about a belt driven pump off an early 80's caddy 4100, but the fab. would have been a complete pain.

 

Does anyone know how much vacuum volume the trans needs to work properly? I understand that the EGR, MAP, and wastegate must run off of engine vacuum because they respond to both boost and vacuum.

 

The pump i bought is from an old audi, it is designed to cycle on and off as needed to maintain the proper vacuum in the lines and was originally used to operate the cruise control and other accesories. I am also going to be running a fairly large vacuum canister from a mustang II. It has a single port only, so it just helps to maintain volume of air.

I think this should be enough volume to run everything considering i don't have to worry about a brake booster, the one plus side to the PM3.

 

Thanks for all the input

 

Joe

[GP1138]

Why would the trans modulator need load sensitive vacuum supply? If the original setup included a check valve to vent boost from the trans line then what would it matter what the vacuum source is? Electric vacuum pumps are very commonly used on large displacement engines with big cams to run brake boosters and on diesels to run all vacuum operated accessories. I was thinking about a belt driven pump off an early 80's caddy 4100, but the fab. would have been a complete pain.

 

Does anyone know how much vacuum volume the trans needs to work properly? I understand that the EGR, MAP, and wastegate must run off of engine vacuum because they respond to both boost and vacuum.

 

The pump i bought is from an old audi, it is designed to cycle on and off as needed to maintain the proper vacuum in the lines and was originally used to operate the cruise control and other accesories. I am also going to be running a fairly large vacuum canister from a mustang II. It has a single port only, so it just helps to maintain volume of air.

I think this should be enough volume to run everything considering i don't have to worry about a brake booster, the one plus side to the PM3.

 

Thanks for all the input

 

Joe

 

Get a vacuum gauge and a t-connector and hook it up to your transmission shift modulator and run it hard and soft to see what levels the trans shifts at.

[Jeff M]

If I said you had to do it :!: , well then The tranny vac mod sees engine load (no need here for rpms!!), i.e. all vacuum and boosted load level signals occurring with the engine are sent to the tranny via the vac mod. This engine load signal being sent to the vac mod adjusts for firmer up-shifts the more the load is from the engine. You don't want a firm shift for easy/normal driving nor do you want a soft shift when putting the hammer down, this setup is the best and only way for us to have the tranny shifting relative to engine load/power output!!! So do it right or like I said, you will come back complaining about nasty shifts, and a fail tranny!!

 

 

 

Jeff M

[Guest TurboSedan]

So I will admit I can't read I guess...lol

 

lol, sorry if i sounded a bit rude :oops:

[joberlee]

If I said you had to do it :!: , well then The tranny vac mod sees engine load (no need here for rpms!!), i.e. all vacuum and boosted load level signals occurring with the engine are sent to the tranny via the vac mod. This engine load signal being sent to the vac mod adjusts for firmer up-shifts the more the load is from the engine. You don't want a firm shift for easy/normal driving nor do you want a soft shift when putting the hammer down, this setup is the best and only way for us to have the tranny shifting relative to engine load/power output!!! So do it right or like I said, you will come back complaining about nasty shifts, and a fail tranny!!

 

 

 

Jeff M

 

OK, here is what i don't get.... if my knoledge of vacuum, boost and the check valves is correct then the trans modulator gets no vaccum when the engine is under boost, right? and that transmission was designed to operate with vacuum at all times, right? so why would you HAVE to have the vacuum coming from the engine. If you watch a vacuum guage on a N/A engine it read within a few psi range (17-21) all time, except when going to open throttle from idle (vacuum drops while accelerating) or from open throttle to closed (vacuum rises while deccelerating). So how can the modulator on this trans change it's output drastically if it has NO vacuum at some times?

 

I'm not trying to be rude, but how is this possible? the trans is still getting input from the downshift cable and electrical input from the main harness connector. I dunno, just trying to make this thing work.

[Aaron]

So I will admit I can't read I guess...lol

 

lol, sorry if i sounded a bit rude :oops:

 

No not at all, I fucked up...again...

 

I think it is a big waste of time and money. The TGP was sold from the factory, so everything had to work. If it works fine how it is, why fuck with it?

[joberlee]

So I will admit I can't read I guess...lol

 

lol, sorry if i sounded a bit rude :oops:

 

No not at all, I fucked up...again...

 

I think it is a big waste of time and money. The TGP was sold from the factory, so everything had to work. If it works fine how it is, why fuck with it?

 

The TGP was not a GM factory produced car. It was an after the fact reverse engineering job by McClaren/ ASC. They did a good job of making the car work. They took a non turbo 3.1 v6 automatic trans grand prix se and added an intercooled turbo. So, in other words, this engine and chassis were not designed with a turcharger in mind. This is where these stupid check valves come into play. The cruise control, heat controls, TRANSMISSION and other accessory stuff can't have boost instead of vacuum. So they added venting check valves on the vacuum lines to those items. Ensentially when you step on the gas and the engine goes from negative pressure (vacuum) to positive pressure (boost) the check valves vent the pressure in the lines instead of letting it go to the accessories and hurting them by making them operate backwards. If the check valve to the heating controls goes bad every time you go into boost the vents go to full defrost , no matter where they are set at.

 

Here is my problem, I bought my car from someone who started an engine replacement (low miles TGP engine). He lost a few things after he took everything apart. Including all of the check valves and some of the vacuum lines. So I saw this as an opportunity to simplify the engine vacuum system, by eliminating all of the venting check valves and running everything except the EGR, MAP, FPR and Wastegate off of an electric pump with a canister to back it up. This seems like it will be easier, and cheaper, than trying to recreate the missing lines and valves. Plus i can get rid of the slight boost vent of the valves.

[Guest TurboSedan]

I think it is a big waste of time and money. The TGP was sold from the factory, so everything had to work. If it works fine how it is, why fuck with it?

 

my problem with the factory designed vacuum harness is that it is 1) hard to access due to the fact that some of them run under the plenum, and 2) the hard plastic vacuum lines are prone to cracking.

 

and about mounting the manifold distribution block on the back of the plenum....great place for you guys with PM3, but since my car was blessed with vacuum operated brakes, i cannot use that hole in the back of the plenum. so bye bye EGR

[TurboGTU]

Here comes my feet at least I am not stomping as hard as others here what you talking bout? ...sure there are reasons , just guessing on your intended setup but wanted to throw this out. PCV Valve is for evacuation of the crankcase when at idle, and the air supplied for it comes from the front crankcase tube hole. When under boost the PCV Valve closes and then evacuation is out the front crankcase tube hole into the air filter (box if stock), boost reverses the evacuation process on the crankcase. Does that sound good ?

 

Jeff M

Hmmm...messing with the restroom pipes again . PVC :!: . OK...I don't like anything from the intake to leak at all. I had pressure tested a bunch of PVC valves and they like to stick open and some leaked too much to my liking (new and used..plastic and metal). Though the plastics sealed better than metal ones . SO out goes the PVC and the front is used for crank case vacume/vent. The PVC will remain on the other side..but will just be open to air. The horror of my turbo fords PVC system... :shock: ...so im cautious on the GTU.

[joberlee]

SO out goes the PVC and the front is used for crank case vacume/vent. The PVC will remain on the other side..but will just be open to air.

 

So.. the PCV valve will be there but not hooked to anything? For the love of god why? All the pressure that builds up in the crankcase has to go somewhere, if it can't get sucked out through the PCV valve, then it's forced out of the breather and you end up with a freakin mess of oil in your airbox or around the engine.

 

Also, why are people so determined to get rid of EGR valves? They are there for a very good reason. They help to LOWER the cylinder temp when cruising. By adding mostly burned gases back into the mixture it leans it slightly causing a slightly less hot burn in the cylinders. so when you step on it and send the engine into boost the cylinders aren't already red hot. Also helps wiht fuel econemy. Just curious where the big advantage is to removing those.

 

Does anyone have a firm answer why a transmission wouldn't be able to run off of an alternative vacuum source?

[LukeZ34]

If the check valve to the heating controls goes bad every time you go into boost the vents go to full defrost , no matter where they are set at.

That must be my problem then.. It gets annoying when you hammer it and lose the cool air that's blowing on you.

[Jeff M]

Here comes my feet at least I am not stomping as hard as others here what you talking bout? ...sure there are reasons , just guessing on your intended setup but wanted to throw this out. PCV Valve is for evacuation of the crankcase when at idle, and the air supplied for it comes from the front crankcase tube hole. When under boost the PCV Valve closes and then evacuation is out the front crankcase tube hole into the air filter (box if stock), boost reverses the evacuation process on the crankcase. Does that sound good ?

 

Jeff M

Hmmm...messing with the restroom pipes again . PVC :!: . OK...I don't like anything from the intake to leak at all. I had pressure tested a bunch of PVC valves and they like to stick open and some leaked too much to my liking (new and used..plastic and metal). Though the plastics sealed better than metal ones . SO out goes the PVC and the front is used for crank case vacume/vent. The PVC will remain on the other side..but will just be open to air. The horror of my turbo fords PVC system... :shock: ...so im cautious on the GTU.

 

Double hmmm;

 

The old wheels are grinding from what you are finding

Say it ain't so that your valve's suck and blow

Shouldn’t be leaking so bad that you be freaking

SyTy guys in the past went this route to cure their leaking ass

Stiffer spring rates for the PCV was a better route then using PVC

Check their web sites for more insight

 

Please read my post below for real details

 

Jeff eMnM

[Jeff M]

Back to work , when I question a “system†on a vehicle I first have to give credit that the engineers had a reason, and some thought must first be given to figure out that reason before I proceed to make it better 8) . Other engine guys have stated the same, even able to show the “reason†was good enough to leave it alone, once the reason was explained. So to get a good handle from the engineer’s standpoint, check out this link:

 

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf

 

With the Positive Crankcase Ventilation Valve/PCV Valve (or Closed Crankcase Ventilation as the “system’ is termed) the application while the engine/intake manifold is under vacuum was to borrow this “vacuum†to evacuate the crankcase but limit the amount of “ventilating†by using a PCV Valve that had a specific spring rate/tension (and to some degree size of the PCV Valve) to match this engine’s evacuation needs and load so evacuation was properly regulated (its also an emission devise but we like the other important reason for its existence). With the crankcase under a slight vacuum from the intake being plumbed into it, and the amount of evacuation being regulated by the PCV Valve (PVC/Polyvinyl Chloride) engineers were able to manage the right amount of evacuation of the blow-bys and contaminants (some are moisture/condensation as the engine warms, oil mist from the oil being slung around by the reciprocating parts others, fuel as well), this also to keep there from being a neutral or positive pressure in the crankcase that would disturb the sealing of the piston rings. Another design factor had to be considered if the engine was to have a backfire condition, where flames could go through the PCV Valve and get into the crankcase where you have a nice explosive oil mist rich mixture along with some fuel from the blow-by prior to spark plug ignition (a few degrees before TDC where the air and fuel mix is being compressed as it is heading for near TDC, and spark to occur). I did a quick test on a stock TGP PCV Valve/Fram FV299 and found it sealed fully when blown on, but if I held it on an angle/not vertical and blew again, it leaked, very little, the fact that the PCV Valve is mounted vertical in the valve cover makes a point since if the valve is held on an angle it will for sure leak, might need to re-run your tests again. At this point I would hook up a pressure gauge and test what actual pressure would do as my blowing is hardly 1psi of pressure, so if you can simulate up to 15 psi of pressure (boost) this would help determine if the sealing under real world conditions is still holding.

 

Jeff M

[Guest TurboSedan]

Double hmmm;

 

The old wheels are grinding from what you are finding

Say it ain't so that your valve's suck and blow

Shouldn’t be leaking so bad that you be freaking

SyTy guys in the past went this route to cure their leaking ass

Stiffer spring rates for the PCV was a better route then using PVC

Check their web sites for more insight

 

Please read my post below for real details

 

Jeff eMnM

 

i could see how a stiffer spring in a PCV valve could work better than "PVC" (plastic pipe?) haha. oh the PCV system....defiately something i need to work on with my GTS i think i might get a nice catch can from ATP. blow-by sucks