bartonmd Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 Aaron, Back to the original post... How many miles are on your engine? If your engine's not broken in completely yet (less than 12k miles), you're probably giving away some hp there... maybe as much as 10hp because of the rpm you're spinning up to... Also, you said you have intake and exhaust headers that are larger than most... have you ported your heads to match BOTH of these? Mike
TGPilot Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 Actually, he's trying to validate people who say that chassis dynos are the be-all-end-all of performance measurement, if you read more carefully. Can you quote that somewhere in his post please? I do not see that at all. What I see is... Horsepower numbers from a chassis dyno are good for only one thing, and that is bragging rights and bench racing. Then I see... The other numbers that you look at, mainly the A/F ratio, are more important than the final TQ and HP numbers, although I should add that the TQ and HP curves are important to look at too. That is not the object of dyno tuning! A/F is important for sure but you need to see what it is doing across the entire RPM spectrum. At the same time you need to see where you are making power the entire time while monitoring A/F to make sure you do not cook your engine from too little fuel. Not a simple thing to do while driving your car around on public streets! Then pull over...make a change..then go do it again over and over without a cop seeing you. Using a chassis dyno is the best tool on the planet at the moment for tuning your car under load conditions in a stationary environment. Especially for those who do not wish to pull their motor out of their car...do a tweak for power gain...put it back in...then hope that under real world load it will react the same! If looking at A/F was the only real numbers you need to see then go buy a $50 A/F meter and watch the blinking lights! Chassis Dynos were built and USED for more than just Bragging Rights! Pro racers all over the world use them to test current programs they have written to squeeze out that last 1/10th of a second in the quarter mile or get that extra 10 HP it takes to hang an AWD car out at 110MPH in the woods during a Rally. The only issue with a Chassis dyon when you get into the BIG numbers is..HOW DO YOU FIND TRACTION ON A METAL DRUM? That has been addressed in many dyno rooms with high tack rubber compounds on he drums to get a better traction patch. As far as the Dyno we used on Sunday...Bear has been using his Dyno FOR YEARS! I am very confident he is using it correctly and has the proper training and OJT it takes to make proper numbers. What I think is this is a classic case that Aaron boasted bigger than he can produce and it bit him in the ass. Instead of fessing up he is screaming "BAD DYNO!" from the hilltops hoping to not get ragged about showing 50HP less than he predicted! 8)
futuretgper Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 even if you sit at the line and roast your tires, you still run fairly consistent trap speeds, you car eventually hooks up and its just your time that is effected....unless you spin your tires forever.....like half way to the finish line!!!
skalor Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 even if you sit at the line and roast your tires' date=' you still run fairly consistent trap speeds, you car eventually hooks up and its just your time that is effected....unless you spin your tires forever.....like half way to the finish line!!![/quote'] I agree with you on this that trap speeds are usually pretty consistent when it comes showing your car's true potential. You're traps are pretty crappy for a top-end motor. You ran a 15.22 @ 91 at 4900 feet and that equates to a 14.47 @ 95.24 according to NHRA website. I managed a 14.643 @ 96.89 with a 9.545 1/8 mile time. My TGP has a getrag 284 in it so a comparison of our times should be very even.
john99gtp Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 You ran a 15.22 @ 91 at 4900 feet and that equates to a 14.47 @ 95.24 according to NHRA website. I managed a 14.643 @ 96.89 with a 9.545 1/8 mile time. My TGP has a getrag 284 in it so a comparison of our times should be very even. you mean that doesnt equal 13s!!!! :willynilly::willynilly:
dbtk2 Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 So who thinks I should line up against Tony when he gets back to MI, and have a Euro vs. Z34 race? If Aaron's car runs what he claims it should, I should get spanked...theoretically. I agree that the numbers Aaron pulled are what the car puts out. I have always said, until you have proof that you have actually made that much power, then I don't want to hear about what it *should* put out. It put out 218whp and thats that. Should've, would've, could've. We've all heard it before, it just doesn't cut it. 218whp is pretty respectable for a car that made 210 crank hp stock, thats quite an improvement. I'd be happy about that result not dissapointed. Shawn
NY GTP Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 OMG people do some of you not know how to read? I am going AGAINST the people that are claiming that chassis dynos are the end all be all of measurements. Maybe I misworded something or did not get my point across. What I am trying to say is that chassis dynos SHOULD NOT be used by people to make weak ass horsepower claims, like Aaron is apparently whining about according to you guys (I dont know the story behind him or his car, but it seems like a few of you are against him). TGPilot, I am fully aware of everything you stated about dynos, but it appeared thats not what the topic of this post was about nor Aarons intended use for his dyno time. More like he was just there to get some peak measurements to brag about instead of fine tuning, or atleast I'm assuming so since he indicated nothing in regards to A/F ratios, timing, knock retard, ect. Which leads me to this statement.... i'll trust a dyno-jet any day of the week when i want to measure what my car is capable of. Honestly, WHERE IN THE HELL does a peak hp/tq number get you? Nowhere, it just shows that you knew what parts to buy and how to get the car a good tune. No one builds a car just to run on a dyno and then say "Oh, Im happy now that I know what my car can put down to the wheels on a chassis dyno!!" Gimme a break!!! I want to clarify where I stand on this issue, because obviously I was either unclear in what I said, or some of you just arent understanding me correctly for whatever reason... -I DO NOT agree that chassis dynos should be used for mere peak hp numbers to go around town and brag about. They mean nothing until backed up with a time slip, which is the ultimate showing of a cars AND drivers performance!!! Those so called "variables" that TurboSedan talked about earlier exist EVERYWHERE AND ANYWHERE a race is occuring. If you could legitimately use variables as an excuse, than we would have no races period!!!! Everyone would hail to John Force or Warren Johnson because they are the ultimate drivers in drag racing -I DO agree that a chassis dyno is/should be used as a *tool* to tune your car and get it running as good as possible until you can get it to a track and get it fine tuned for real world conditions. Gotta remember, the car has a totally different load on it when its driving itself as opposed to the dyno. Different rates of acceleration and aerodynamics probably being the two biggest factors when it comes to the difference in loads between a dyno run and a run down the track. TGPilot, do you see where I was trying to get at with my two previous posts?? I'm not defending Aaron completely, but I was trying to say that you can go to 3 different dynos and have 3 completely different numbers being given to you as far as power at the wheels is concerned. I dont know the story behind his car, so I cannot comment on his particular results. I guess I just gotta put up with this kind of flaming since I've only been here for a few days and no one really knows me yet
sonyman87 Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 So tuned equal length headers are in fact worth -1 whp??? EVERY car there, except 1 or 2, pulled drastically lower numbers. Hell a Z06, with just over 15k miles, and a 150shot, barely capped 400whp. It isn't right. And I have a bit more than that, a bore, full exhaust, UD pulley, custom chip, a bigass 75mm throttle body, better headers than most companies make, and a bit more. Again, Michael made more hp with a much smaller TB, less compression, and stock manifolds. I know I can't claim higher, but trust me, that dynow as fubar'ed, and most everyone there will agree. 1 golden rule of motors most people will see in there time. 1 motor unaltered threw the period of 60K miles. at 40-60K miles the motor will perform better and faster then it will at 10-15k miles. Your new motor is still breaking in. its easy to put the blam on other elements but in all reality it dosnt matter. Life sucks sometimes. example, i remember last year my first qtmile run i got a 16.5!!! spun threw 1st gear 2x then finnaly hooked up and my intake tube fell off the throttle body rendering my car powerless after i let off the gas. shit happens and i took a 16.5, sure i could do better but thats what i got. Fixed my problem and pulled a 15.1 later that day. On another note, 240whp. Ok i giveyou the higher comression pistons Pully and chip, alone can make that 40+hp gain over stock and +25hp for the Headers this is being generous. now for the throttle body sure bigger helps but its NOT actualy pushing air into the motor. and your headers are being choked off by the cheep cat and mufflers you have straped on. unless you have exuast cutouts or straitpipe your headers wont be 100% effective. Your intake filter element alone can also provide a large restriction even though its K&N there is a level of air drag on the filter itself and thats going to cancel any effect of a larger TB or other intake mods. 218hp is very respectful and im sure you have more potential in that motor to crank out some higher numbers. You just have to figure out what is holding you back. where is the hp choke at. maybe your clutch is slipping a little. Maybe cams are worn .010 to much. maybe maybe maybe.. the fact is you got what you got and its your job to try again. goodluck and i hope you hit your target
Guest TurboSedan Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 i'll trust a dyno-jet any day of the week when i want to measure what my car is capable of. Honestly, WHERE IN THE HELL does a peak hp/tq number get you? Nowhere, it just shows that you knew what parts to buy and how to get the car a good tune. No one builds a car just to run on a dyno and then say "Oh, Im happy now that I know what my car can put down to the wheels on a chassis dyno!!" Gimme a break!!! jeez, simmer down already. what's wrong with building a car and buying the right parts and using a dyno-jet to get it in good tune? c'mon. and where did i imply that people build cars only to be a dyno-queen? i stand by my point....the dyno proves more than a street race or bracket race does...unless you're a DAMN GOOD CONSISTENT driver...which most people probably aren't.
Aaron Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Posted May 17, 2005 So tuned equal length headers are in fact worth -1 whp??? EVERY car there, except 1 or 2, pulled drastically lower numbers. Hell a Z06, with just over 15k miles, and a 150shot, barely capped 400whp. It isn't right. And I have a bit more than that, a bore, full exhaust, UD pulley, custom chip, a bigass 75mm throttle body, better headers than most companies make, and a bit more. Again, Michael made more hp with a much smaller TB, less compression, and stock manifolds. I know I can't claim higher, but trust me, that dynow as fubar'ed, and most everyone there will agree. On another note, 240whp. Ok i giveyou the higher comression pistons Pully and chip, alone can make that 40+hp gain over stock and +25hp for the Headers this is being generous. now for the throttle body sure bigger helps but its NOT actualy pushing air into the motor. and your headers are being choked off by the cheep cat and mufflers you have straped on. unless you have exuast cutouts or straitpipe your headers wont be 100% effective. Your intake filter element alone can also provide a large restriction even though its K&N there is a level of air drag on the filter itself and thats going to cancel any effect of a larger TB or other intake mods. 218hp is very respectful and im sure you have more potential in that motor to crank out some higher numbers. You just have to figure out what is holding you back. where is the hp choke at. maybe your clutch is slipping a little. Maybe cams are worn .010 to much. maybe maybe maybe.. the fact is you got what you got and its your job to try again. goodluck and i hope you hit your target Cheap cat and mufflers? Yah, uh huh...Whatever...I have over $2000 into just the exhaust of that car...That isn't cheap...And the parts of the exhaust are the best out there, in fact I looked right through the mufflers, cat, and resonator. And these parts aren't strapped on, they are welded. I didn't even have a filter on the car. I am not going to try again, I don't give a fuck. I know what it is capable of, and that's enough for me. I've done more custom work to the 3.4 than anybody alive that we know of, and I know what I'm doing. I know how it reacted to headers, the intakes, the TB, etc. There is no way in fucking hell Michael's car is making more power than mine. I've ridden in his car more times than any of you. Mod for mod mine always felt faster, even if it be close. He even knew it, just would never flat out admit it, and would never race me. Then I add 11mm on the TB over him, and tuned equal length headers, and a reprogrammed chip... fyi it has about 7k on the new motor, and I agree it isn't in its prime. But I'm also basing my claims off what it feels like now, and how my current races went. I sat there and watched car after car put down numbers significantly off (whether it be high or low), what they should be. There were only 2 cars that ran normal numbers, TGPilot's (which still were off IIRC), and the vette's. That dyno has been in that shop running for less than a month, and everyone knows he had a 2 week delay becuz of calibration problems. These havn't gone away. It isn't an excuse, it is the truth.
Aaron Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Posted May 17, 2005 Also Bob (02 GTP) dyno'd lower then before because he thinks his nitrous wasn't spraying. Just accept the numbers Aaron and hope tony gets it tuned better. He tested it right after the dyno inthe lot and it sprayed normal.
ShockTherapy Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 don't worry about the board tony, as long as you're not driving a 1994 Saturn SL1, you have a cool car.
Aaron Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Posted May 17, 2005 I remeber when you were aiming for 240, then it grew to 260 after doing nothing to the car. It grew with a 75mm TB, 96 intakes, and a reprogrammed chip. ben said to me, "I would not doubt 25whp with a decent A:F, and tuning." And I have always said 240 to be realistic, but 250 should be attainable, and I'd love to see 260.
Aaron Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Posted May 17, 2005 Also, you said you have intake and exhaust headers that are larger than most... have you ported your heads to match BOTH of these? Mike Although my heads are not ported, the intakes and headers were matched to the ports upon install. But the heads are not a big restriction right now.
Guest TurboSedan Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 Cheap cat and mufflers? Yah, uh huh...Whatever...I have over $2000 into just the exhaust of that car...That isn't cheap... $2000?!?!?! dude you are NUTS?! my GTS exhaust cost me $285....all mandrel bent 2.5" aluminized steel from turbine to tailpipe with a 2.5" Dynomax Ultraflo muffler (btw, no cat here). that price including installation, and it's ALL welded. (well to tell you the truth, it all only cost me $126 because i bought it from my brother when he went to 3") btw, a KICK ASS SS turbo header costs $550, but that's still way under $1000. I am not going to try again, I don't give a fuck. I know what it is capable of, and that's enough for me. I've done more custom work to the 3.4 than anybody alive that we know of, and I know what I'm doing. I know how it reacted to headers, the intakes, the TB, etc. There is no way in fucking hell Michael's car is making more power than mine. I've ridden in his car more times than any of you. Mod for mod mine always felt faster, even if it be close. He even knew it, just would never flat out admit it, and would never race me. Then I add 11mm on the TB over him, and tuned equal length headers, and a reprogrammed chip... fyi it has about 7k on the new motor, and I agree it isn't in its prime. But I'm also basing my claims off what it feels like now, and how my current races went. I sat there and watched car after car put down numbers significantly off (whether it be high or low), what they should be. There were only 2 cars that ran normal numbers, TGPilot's (which still were off IIRC), and the vette's. That dyno has been in that shop running for less than a month, and everyone knows he had a 2 week delay becuz of calibration problems. These havn't gone away. It isn't an excuse, it is the truth. blah blah blah....
sl3196 Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 ORIGINAL: Thumper91 I was talking to the guys at Spitfire (BTW.. Don't go there unless you know were your freeze plugs are supposed go.. because they don't).. They helped Bear install the dyno and calibrate it, and they said that the dyno was off at Bears old shop, but is now correctly calibrated... I know this isn't what you guys want to hear, but I think the dyno is more representative of real numbers now.. BTW... 255 HP 307 Tq VS Misgrind Cam, 3.2 Pulley, Custom Tune... Hmm....
Aaron Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Posted May 17, 2005 $2000?!?!?! dude you are NUTS?! my GTS exhaust cost me $285....all mandrel bent 2.5" aluminized steel from turbine to tailpipe with a 2.5" Dynomax Ultraflo muffler (btw, no cat here). that price including installation, and it's ALL welded. (well to tell you the truth, it all only cost me $126 because i bought it from my brother when he went to 3") btw, a KICK ASS SS turbo header costs $550, but that's still way under $1000. Well every piece of pipe from the head back is stainless steel, and the best part for my application. And funny, things often cost more when you do it yourself, using the best parts available. And why is that header a kickass header? It can't be kick ass if it is mass-produced.
sl3196 Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 And why is that header a kickass header? It can't be kick ass if it is mass-produced. So since yours isnt mass produced, it can't kick ass. You just keep making yourself look worse and worse.
phantomshado Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 And why is that header a kickass header? It can't be kick ass if it is mass-produced. thats the weakest thing I've ever heard. Thats like saying that since (insert band name here) gets decent air play on the radio, it sucks. Way to use the logic of a 14 year old. Realistically, if a header is mass produced AND it sells a lot, you can assume its because people like what they get. Granted some mass produced things blow, but really, thats the weakest thing out of this whole thread. Be happy with 218 whp, thats pretty good for a car that came from the factory with 210 at the crank. Thats makes about 250 at the crank now, so you got your 250, just not at the wheels. I dare say that you might be the victim of ricer math, albeit less extreme. Headers add like 20, intakes is like 20, and chip and yada yada yada is about 180 hp. Not quite. C'mon. We all know that if anyone keeps adding mods will not add the total potential power that can maybe be achieved, etc. Mods like the TB and headers and chip work in conjunction with each other to get significantly less than what each on its own is claimed. Example: Ricer muffler, adds 10 hp, warm air intake add another 10, chip, 20hp, new header for a turbo, 15 hp. Say this was all done to the same car that had 200 hp stock. (its a hypothetical) When you add all of these things on, you will not have 255 hp, you will most likely see maybe 230. Long story short, Aaron, your car isn't yours anymore, so whatever, its over now. Let it go.
topless94style Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 I think i know why aaron may be claming his headers better than "mass produced" headers. If i remember correctly, he went through headers by ed, a local company to me about 15 miles north in a very bad nieghborhood in minneapolis(that comment has nothing to do with anything really except that gun shots, rapes, and ass kickings are a daily occurance around this shop). I read threw Ed's site, they seem to really know what the hell they are talking about. But one of their marketing techniques per say is that they claim, with their knowledge, and the skill of the custom builder(aaron) you can build a header better than any header manufacturer out there. And they back that up with various statements as to why building your own is better. Which all make sense, but not everone can build their own. Aarons claims of having the best header produced, I think are derived from the Headers by Ed website. Look it up yourselves id give the www but i dont have it off hand.
Guest TurboSedan Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 It can't be kick ass if it is mass-produced. are you 13 Aaron? the results of this header from TurbosUnleased have MORE than proven itself on TD.com but this is off topic so i'll shut up about that your headers on the other hand seemed to have proven a -1hp loss.
manitcor Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 as people have argued with you before, aaron, there is way more to headers than just being tuned and equal length. Many companies go through 5-10 different designs before settling on a desgin that has a good balance between power gain and cost of production. Its not uncommon to see an HP loss with headers, this can be due to tuning, supporting mods or header design. Its also been my expierence that 20+ hp from custom headers and even "mass-produced" headers is farily pie in the sky unless you have the tuning and supporting modifcations to handle it. This is generally more than just the biggest TB you can find and some bottom end mods. I could see people backing you more if you were a little more realstic in the past and that you havent found your self caught in BS time and time again but there is an undeniable pattern with you man. Your credibility is pretty much 0. Now I will admit the numbers you pulled seem quite in line with what youve done minus the headers. It sucks to see all that hard work go to an actual net loss in power. It may be your desgin or the problem may rely on other factors. This is why "mass-production" companies wont make headers for a car unless they can sell 200-1000 sets because the research to get a good working set can cost well over $10,000 in some cases. Im honestly impressed with what you pulled out but I wouldnt expect much more and certainly not the 250 or 260 you claim it to be capable of. You obviously have technical skill, now you just need to take a healthy dose of reality.
Guest TurboSedan Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 I can take my car to one of the 3 or 4 dynos I have within 2 hours of me and get numbers that could possibly be within a 75hp window, meaning I could get 150hp at one place, 180 at another, and maybe 250 at another. well, have YOU yourself gone out and dyno'd your car at these 3 different shops in your area and seen for yourself this 75hp "window"? There was a real good writeup in Hot Rod last year about dynos, and they told the differences in operation and results between them. You'd be amazed how much of a variance you can face between the different types of dynos. I even read that the amount of tension you have in the tie down straps can cause a significant difference in the numbers. More tension, more friction, lower numbers and vice versa. There was a few other variables they mentioned but I cant recall me thinks you should put the magazines down and see for yourself.
Aaron Posted May 17, 2005 Author Report Posted May 17, 2005 as people have argued with you before, aaron, there is way more to headers than just being tuned and equal length. Many companies go through 5-10 different designs before settling on a desgin that has a good balance between power gain and cost of production. Its not uncommon to see an HP loss with headers, this can be due to tuning, supporting mods or header design. Its also been my expierence that 20+ hp from custom headers and even "mass-produced" headers is farily pie in the sky unless you have the tuning and supporting modifcations to handle it. This is generally more than just the biggest TB you can find and some bottom end mods. I could see people backing you more if you were a little more realstic in the past and that you havent found your self caught in BS time and time again but there is an undeniable pattern with you man. Your credibility is pretty much 0. Now I will admit the numbers you pulled seem quite in line with what youve done minus the headers. It sucks to see all that hard work go to an actual net loss in power. It may be your desgin or the problem may rely on other factors. This is why "mass-production" companies wont make headers for a car unless they can sell 200-1000 sets because the research to get a good working set can cost well over $10,000 in some cases. Im honestly impressed with what you pulled out but I wouldnt expect much more and certainly not the 250 or 260 you claim it to be capable of. You obviously have technical skill, now you just need to take a healthy dose of reality. You all don't get it. THE CAR WAS TUNED. I know what comes with header design, I did more research and reading on it than you could imagine. I'm not saying mine are the absolute best out there, but how can a company build 1 header for 500 cars? I chose every dimension on my header according to performance. Every single one. They are all but perfect for my application. And the TB isn't the biggest out there, I chose it becuz in terms of airflow in CFM, it was just barely oversized for my application, and went perfect with the header's 6800rpm tuning. They are very much in line, minus the headers and TB. There wasn't a loss in power, the dyno was off. There was one, not 2 as I previously stated, there was but 1 car that put down normal results. And trust me, it isn;t my design. If Milzy's can gain any power at all, mine are like Godlike in comparison. I know what it is realistically capable of, and it is fully capable of 240whp. I did go through Header's By Ed, and I'll be the first to admit it was a mistake. The company that merely supplies pipe has nothing to do with the final result. Well, very little. And for my application, there is no better header, and never will be. Just becuz one is mass-produced, doesn't meanit is good. Look at the TOG/SLP headers for the L67, theydown and out SUCK, yet they sell like crazy. How can I be happy with 218? A guy with stock manifolds and 11mm less on the TB made more...IT ISN'T RIGHT.
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