Sunbird GT with TGP Motor

[TurboGTU]

If you study the code/tables and know how a carb works..you can make things easy for yourself. If you look at a 5spd and auto code..you already know what needs changing..its been done.

 

But don't be dissapointed when you do get a "5spd" chip someone made for you that won't run right. Your setup has to be like the "testmule". The test mule has to be perfect...no weak pump, bad injecters, bad sensors..ect...no major mods. You can get away with it though...nothings ever perfect....but it does have to be in the "ballpark".

[Jeff M]

Jeff M, I really am not trying to screw you, but http://www.gmtuners.com may be able to help also. again I am not trying to draw people away from you.

 

EEwww, I personally would shy away from someone who has not tuned on an actual car!! There were many web sites like this, most have come and gone, this one should stay as it sounds like he has tuned on other actual cars, but if he has not tuned on a few TGPs running at his shop then this would be scary to me. I know, long time ago ADS and Superchips (been around longer and equipped with skilled tuners and equipment/dynos etc than these other guys) and a few other smaller shops did a few TGP chips, that later came to me from customers not happy with the results, timing was a mess, one company ADDED a ton of timing to a boosted engine, NOT!!! another left the boost side alone and gave the owner a manual control, NOT!!! Some were charged $350 and up for their custom tuned chips, then $75 after the next 2 free “adjustments†did not get things right. So the history is not so good, and I call that reputation, which is too bad, don’t like seeing it for either side. What is THE KEY INDICATOR for me is when THEY ask for your chip's BBC, if they don't have one then how do they know the workings of your chip???...even having one does not mean they know all the correct places to make tuning even without a running engine which is more key!!!!....and as anyone that has tuned more than one chip knows, no two chips are laid out alike, a chip from a 1990 3.1L NA is laid out far different than one from a 1990 TGP, and unless someone spent a great deal of time reverse-engineering this chip(too many hours do be paid back from a few chip sales even if for a more common car/engine), or GM gave them (ha-ha) a copy of the chip layout, so then how can they do the right chip changes. BUT, people can go there and get a chip, do it!!!, I WILL NOT call you an idiot, say you made a mistake, and if it does not work out say I told you so, I don’t go there, that’s not me, I only hope there is enough work done to the chip that you get your moneys worth!!! Like all the info I pass on, its not based on ulterior motive, or just one thing I think, that will not serve me now or in the long run (been around for a long time and is why I am still surviving) or those I help, I base it on what has been proven in the past, and from what I have seen and done at my place and/or on this message board and/or in emails. Same with fixes, I am more upset when all of us go to great lengths to help fix someone’s car BUT never hear back on the results!!! Thank-yous are nice but I want to get confirmation that the suggestion(s) given worked out, or what else was found. I know the more that is proven the more comfortable I am with telling someone what to do or spend on fixing their car, I don’t like it when those suggestions don’t work any more than the owner. There are times when even this data-base of learned knowledge does not always work out, frustrating but you admit it, learn from it and go on. With my chips back in 1996 (even back to 1991 with my book?? ), many were leery at first but after a few found the results they were promised delivered, and the years continued to prove this for them and others, owners got their proof and emails to me were less with questions of can I do it/are they good, to just give me the break-down, but I had to earn that over time, a history for others to pull from, a reputation.

 

So, the history on these shops is not real good for now, but there is a chance that his efforts to a manual might be of value, maybe even an auto TGP chip. But like I said, anyone who goes there, what’s the feedback on the results ???

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

The 5 speed patch only makes a couple changes, and it doesn't make changes to DECEL, DFCO. Which are the two most important changes to be made when tuning a 5 speed LG5.

 

Yes, the quote I made regarding 100-150 changes to those areas to get a manual conversion chip happier was from either Ben, SappySE or Aaron (one of those guys, it was a while ago). I talked with this guy back a few years ago and we had some great talks , he knows his tuning well and has done a lot of these for the NA crowd 8) , I was up front and said I would not do NA chips and leave that area to him, hoping he would someday get paid back for all his work on those chips, he replied the same leaving the smaller group of TGPs/TSTEs for me to work on. So I believed his statement on the manual work and took it to heart since I have not worked in that area but do know the many tables and how they respond or don’t like responding to your changes.

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

jeffm do u think youll swap in a 5 speed and do some tinkering??

No thanks' date=' got more than enough on my plate right now.

 

ps im still not sure of the verdict on the gmpcm.com 5speed patch......it sounded like its no good...but is it a good place to start even....

As for the verdict, just a few things I can add

 

I really seriously believe patching another version of the TGP chip as a better start then the overkill AZRC for a manual conversion. In the AZRC chip there are so many areas to idle and rpm control changed that have resulted in even an auto having running problems like rpms leading the car too often, over-revving at start-up/slow to return whether cold, warm or hot and even after start-up, backing out of the driveway in neutral and the rpms are all over the place and taking forever to settle down, cruising and coming to a stop the car pushes often and was not corrected by a simple change in the throttle follower tables. There were other problems to fix and the end results were good for stable rpm control in an auto but not for a manual! Any of the other chips would be a good start as those just have small changes that don’t play so extensively in the areas of rpm control in a manuals favor.

 

These are the many versions made but only a few still exist from the dealer:

 

ASMF0645 Federal Emissions

 

ASAN8785 Cali

 

ATMK5205 Same chip as AUAF for some reason

 

AUAF5205 Main chip used on many 90 TGPs

 

ATMJ5199 Cali Emissions

 

AUAD5199 Cali Emissions Chip, though as I recall, one table changed, pretty insignificant

 

AUFR0423 as used on the TSTE

 

AZRC2132 Cold start/stall/stumble

 

 

There was an export version as well but comparing it to any of these chips shows it is vastly different leading me to believe it was for a non-o2 setup i.e. for use with leaded gas. And I mean different in that many tables we have in our chips are missing, others have been added and many table values extensively changed, and of course the program!

 

Why there were so many chips is a lot of times the results of customer complaints, if enough were generated then GM Programming was given the go-ahead to address that complaint. The thing that is hard to understand is that not all engines are alike, as we have seen with magazines showing very different acceleration times on the exact same car/engine/year, same holds true for just drivability, and same for both of those areas in our cars partly why some run better than others, and some are faster then others. So what chip works best for one engine may just run ok on another car, maybe not run different enough that the owner would notice, and some the changes don’t work well. But for the few that needed changes, these other stock chips were made and helped address customer complaints. Now these facts should be thought of when doing a custom manual for the TGP as all of those cars involved will have different results, some cars may run good, others ok and maybe a few not so good, this is why when chips were done by tuning gurus for the Syclone and Typhoon that many other owners were involved with much feedback from the users back to the programmers. All the users ran loggers and knew the ins and outs enough to be good evaluators, and talk the lingo for the programmers. There was still some compromise as expected and the final(?) chips had to be made for the middle of the road, though a very few that could do it made changes to best suit their engine’s personality, and I am not talking performance, just drivability in all this, performance is yet another area to be addressed the same way but with more focus on the middle of the road as you don’t want one that runs risky on an owners car.

 

New cars have differences as described above, but as was said by turboGTU (name?), add to that 15 years of wear, and old components on the ignition and fueling side as well as old sensors, faulty grounds etc and now you have more variations to work against, or with depending on your philosophy that the glass is half empty or half full ! One way I addressed this was when someone gets my chip they received a 9-page document that describes addressing some of these key areas, not just to make my chip run good but to get the engine running good period, I always said, make it run right before you make it run faster (but too many run cracked pipes but want to buy a chip , yea a chip is more fun )

 

Now there might be a few that think I am trying to scare people away from feeling they will be successful, or feeling I am making it out as being harder than it is but this is not true, these are facts proven over the years and not just to me, and these must be dealt with, you will meet them, but the only way to be successful in the war is to know your enemy, best as you can, and believe me, its best going in knowing as much as you can than not and being ambushed and giving up the war or starting all over again.

 

Good chip tuning to all, more when I see I can help .

 

Jeff M

[futuretgper]

how can u just change chips....i don't get what you mean i think....so if u change chips away from the azrc youll have a simplified version to work with.....the internal progamming still has to be the 8f definition doens't it??? so why would it make a difference....im so lost!!!

 

ps jeffm u have a pm

[Jeff M]

The changes someone would do to the areas of these different chips is in the calibrations. The “program†remains in tack on a different area of the chip, nothing you will need to get into. Changing chips has to do with the eprom in your MEMCAL that has these calibrations (and the program). For more details/no sense typing all that over again, it would be very long :shock: , check out the tuner web sites, nice pics and many details on what is involved with chips and all that!

 

Need to shower up, and get out my tools for this remote radar install tonight, so will reply to your PM later if that is ok, been a hectic day again but with a new set of start and run capacitors and a new contactor, and proper charge of Freon, our air condition will now keep the house cool when it gets in the high 80’s and beyond, this 3 ton unit will smoke the old undersized 2 ton that came with the house (and if anyone is literate on this stuff, yes I did the A-Coil and have what I call my EPA Green Card ).

 

Jeff M

[Guest TurboSedan]

check out the tuner web sites, nice pics and many details on what is involved with chips and all that!

 

Jeff M

 

i 2nd that!! DIY all the way baby!

[Jeff M]

check out the tuner web sites, nice pics and many details on what is involved with chips and all that!

 

Jeff M

 

i 2nd that!! DIY all the way baby!

 

 

Jeff M

[Guest TurboSedan]

check out the tuner web sites, nice pics and many details on what is involved with chips and all that!

 

Jeff M

 

i 2nd that!! DIY all the way baby!

 

 

Jeff M

 

??? uhh? afraid my comment will cut into your sales? wait, don't answer that, because the DIY'ers out there already know it's true

 

fwiw, i WAS agreeing with you.....

[TurboGTU]

and as anyone that has tuned more than one chip knows, no two chips are laid out alike, a chip from a 1990 3.1L NA is laid out far different than one from a 1990 TGP

I woun't use a 90 3.1 5spd (weren't 2.8s only 5spds?)code or any 5spd code to use on a TGP..maybe as a referance. Different EGR setup..code size different..the TGP code is a code of it's own. But I'd look into the sunbird turbo 5spd and the auto version..TCC tables are just ajusted to work the shift light logic. Is there something changed in the "software"..??..All I know is that manual shift logic is selected(prob disables spark retard vs tcc?..or converts it to spark retard vs mph or load??). I've also looked at the Syty..same. The only real "Issue" with 5spd conversion on the TGP is idle quality as said. I woun't think its a big deal...you'll live . I would think it would ignore TCC if it weren't pressent like the EBC...then again...I havn't tryed it. Im just a rokie . Now..more boost less timming or more timming...less boost :| :shock: .

[Jeff M]

and as anyone that has tuned more than one chip knows, no two chips are laid out alike, a chip from a 1990 3.1L NA is laid out far different than one from a 1990 TGP

I woun't use a 90 3.1 5spd (weren't 2.8s only 5spds?)code or any 5spd code to use on a TGP..maybe as a referance. Different EGR setup..code size different..the TGP code is a code of it's own. But I'd look into the sunbird turbo 5spd and the auto version..TCC tables are just ajusted to work the shift light logic. Is there something changed in the "software"..??..All I know is that manual shift logic is selected(prob disables spark retard vs tcc?..or converts it to spark retard vs mph or load??). I've also looked at the Syty..same. The only real "Issue" with 5spd conversion on the TGP is idle quality as said. I woun't think its a big deal...you'll live . I would think it would ignore TCC if it weren't pressent like the EBC...then again...I havn't tryed it. Im just a rokie . Now..more boost less timming or more timming...less boost :| :shock: .

 

That’s making me think , too late/3am to add much right now, I know doing a compare from a NA 3.1 1990 to 1993 auto (and one manual) showed a lot of tables moved, left out, added, many different cal values, some might be fixes or what they felt were fixes. Doesn’t Ben have one done for a manual conversion???...or is this too different, or a “For Sale†chip and not for swiping? He has done some great work I have heard, and from our few chats, and from how he talks chip with many of the members over there, sure he would be a great resource, especially if you guys are not selling the manual chip, he would be more inclined to help, even Scott if you were not selling it or arguing with him :shock: . Yes "reference", did you think I was suggesting using it straight up for ours :shock: ??..no way, just the list I gave of TGP only chips to add manual to and adjust 8)

 

Now now, more boost and less timing etc was left over from something else, the something else still has not been answered yet, when you add more air flow with heads, or cam and heads is the extra air to be met with more timing to burn the extra air and fuel, or less timing?? That was the brain tease I was throwing out, I have heard from different camps varying views on this, and from what I have found running bigger heads on one car and bigger heads and cam on another. If some manual owner is going to mod their engine it just might be important to know :shock: , ya know

 

Later

 

Jeff M

[TGPilot]

But I'd look into the sunbird turbo 5spd and the auto version..TCC tables are just ajusted to work the shift light logic. Is there something changed in the "software"..??.. The only real "Issue" with 5spd conversion on the TGP is idle quality as said. I woun't think its a big deal...you'll live .

 

All sunbird GT Turbo's were 4 cylinder cars. I am quit sure the mapping and timing tables are completely different.

 

Only issue I ever had with my TGP swap for idle was when the car was rolling at slow speeds and the idle would rise and fall from time to time as it came close to a full stop. That issue can easily be addressed by adjusting the VSS rev counts and is required if you want a properly reading Speedometer. The car senses a slower speed than actual with the 282 5-speed VSS installed. One thing I never tried was to remove the VSS from the auto tranny and install it in the 282. I think they have the same body just a different ratio gear...but it has been a long time since I looked at both.

[TGPilot]

If some manual owner is going to mod their engine it just might be important to know :shock: , ya know

 

Later

 

Jeff M

 

You have to walk before you run...unless you are from Kenya of course!!

 

At this point most anyone who is discussing 5-speed swaps into a TGP will be at close to stock setup. If they are that advanced in their motor improvements then hopefully they are advanced and ready to take on much more in chip performance tweaks.

 

More air = more fuel = bigger turbo = bigger intercooler = purchased stock in GoodYear/Bridgestone/Kumho!!!

[LukeZ34]

Only issue I ever had with my TGP swap for idle was when the car was rolling at slow speeds and the idle would rise and fall from time to time as it came close to a full stop.

 

Exactly.. It still does that. Sometimes when your rolling w/ the clutch disengaged it'll idle around 2000 RPM and it'll kinda bounce up and down. But as soon as you stop, the idle works it's way back down to where it should be.

It's nothing bad, it just gets annoying sometimes.

[Jeff M]

If some manual owner is going to mod their engine it just might be important to know :shock: , ya know

Later

Jeff M

 

You have to walk before you run...unless you are from Kenya of course!!

So true, and I get too excited when I get a chance to give a heads-up for those that might be thinking about it later

 

At this point most anyone who is discussing 5-speed swaps into a TGP will be at close to stock setup. If they are that advanced in their motor improvements then hopefully they are advanced and ready to take on much more in chip performance tweaks.

 

Admit that above. I see the details now on what is happening, up/down rpms, I can toss out what I found but do suggest much more detailed info from the guys at the F-Body web sites. It sounds like the proportional gains tables, maybe integral tables too, part of the PID control strategy that is used for IAC too! Also there is a threshold of Can Be Idle Spark, around 3.4 mph when coming down and past 6 mph going up (hysterisis pair), try disabling it to see if this area is partly to blame.

 

More air = more fuel = bigger turbo = bigger intercooler = purchased stock in GoodYear/Bridgestone/Kumho!!!

 

Yea maybe we should have been investing in air with all these mod maniacs out there

 

Jeff M

[TGPilot]

Yea maybe we should have been investing in air with all these mod maniacs out there

 

Jeff M

 

Somebody came up with the idea of bottled water :shock: ...you may be on to something!! 8)

[Jeff M]

Yea maybe we should have been investing in air with all these mod maniacs out there

 

Jeff M

 

Somebody came up with the idea of bottled water :shock: ...you may be on to something!! 8)

 

Hey they did!!! :shock: There are oxygen bars in big cities, maybe we can sell higher quality air for engines, our little secret, just a dab of NOS to wake it up I did see where a company has a catalytic type converter for big smogged choked cities that somehow cleans up the air so there is more oxygen for the engine on the intake side :shock:

 

As you know chip tuning, I have also been munching on the rpm issue here and also wanted to say to watch the Desired RPM and Actual RPM and IAC as these funky rpms happen. If you see the Actual RPM high and the Desired RPM low, then see that the IAC drops fast (after a too long of delay it sounds like) along with the rpms, then that is an indicator to work in that area. At first I always make huge changes in such an "engine is safe to mess with" area, just to see if the table has effects to this area that I want, and to prove the table is active (odd but some tables are asleep), and even if I don't get full results, keep that table in the back of my mind while I try a few others, lots of times using a combination of tables to get things working better.

 

Jeff M

[Jcrow]

This is makin me crazy to start my turbo project! I'm getting a second vehicle (90 gmc 4x4) ready before I start tearing apart the cutlass.

 

Let me know your opinions!

Ive got:

-grand national turbo .60/.63

-22 lb/hr injectors cleaned and tested from a 3800 series II n/a

-giant volvo intercooler

-1990 TGP chip

-Vetronix TECH 1

Need to get a 2bar map sensor

 

I am not worried about making exhaust and intake pipes

 

What I am worried about is how will the computer react to the larger turbo?

If I am at say 5 psi I will be flowing more are than a T-25 at 5psi right?

Will this differance in flow be enough to not get enough fuel?

[Jeff M]

Well these MAP sensors alone won't measure air quantity, like from a bigger turbo, only pressure, need other info to come up with the final air flow for the chip to run from, and what the chip calculates is called a speed density strategy, not like the MAF/Mass Air Flow sensors that other cars use. Really good idea with the scan tool as you ramp up the boost slowly seeing how much you can get away with 8) So hard to not want to get on it and go boosting, know the addiction I would say 22lbs won't be enough to run the boost maybe you want with pump gas, some have run 24lb injectors and things ran ok, others it ran so poorly/rich at idle and cruise that they had to yanked them out

 

Jeff M

[Jcrow]

I'll use the 22's to start because I have them and watch the block learn to make sure they aren't being maxed out.

Right now while n/a the stock injectors were 15 so I put in 17lb/hr, half because my old ones were bad and half to see if the computer could take it. with the 17's I am getting a block learn of 100 which is right on the edge. Sometimes if I idle in park/neutral for a long period of time I will get a "rich exhaust" check engine light

[Jeff M]

If you have the TGP chip, it already has changes to run the 22lb over the 15s or 17s, we when you go that setup all should be good with fueling If you have closed loop BLM of 100, that is taking out fuel/running rich, but it should not smell rich once the BLM has corrected for these though it won't in all areas since we only have 2 BLM Cells so maybe this is why it can smell at times and throw a code before the fuel trim can catch up, there is a delay time for fuel trim to act, and to achieve correction. Also when you do the 22lbs that you have, might be some small different from the style injectors, we have disc type Multecs and are the ones you have pintle? There are other variations with different injectors too other than size and spray nozzel.

 

Jeff M

[Jcrow]

I thought I could see 3 or 4 cells, correct me on this. Idle with vehicle stopped, accelerate, coast, possibly wot?.

Oh, maybe you mean 2 that are reading the o2 sensor?

[Jeff M]

I thought I could see 3 or 4 cells, correct me on this. Idle with vehicle stopped, accelerate, coast, possibly wot?.

Oh, maybe you mean 2 that are reading the o2 sensor?

 

Just talking the TGP chip which will be the one you end up with here.

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

Ok, this is a link that if you hack off the end will take you to way more but this one addresses the PID calcs and what they mean 8) :

 

http://diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers/747fuel.txt

 

Eat up!!

 

Jeff M

[Jcrow]

thanks!