Sunbird GT with TGP Motor

[TurboKid]

Hey everyone,

I have a 91' Sunbird GT with a 90' TGP motor hooked to my 282 5-speed. I have a Jeff M Top Gun chip (the best........PERIOD, unless someone can prove me wrong!). Now that the motor is attached to my 282, I need a new chip made. I have a programmer and set up the code to write to my chip....but I can't get it to work and lost all my patience. Can someone make a chip for me or tell me who can????????

 

Thanks

[TGPilot]

PM god910 for more info if he doesn't anser you on here... 8)

[futuretgper]

go to gmpcm.com and find you can download the program and the 5-speed patch for free....my dads friend is gonna buy a turbo grand prix and wants a 5 speed and hes the one who found this.....ive been told on here u gotta buy one from someone.......but this was a free download........has anyone tried it!!!

 

here the link

 

http://www.gmpcm.com/filesdb/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=708

[dbtk2]

I don't know if anyone has tried it or not, but I'd be willing to be its basically a stock chip with colder fan settings and setup for a 5 speed. So it wouldn't have all of the fixes that a Jeff M chip has, which anyone with a 5 speed LG5 wants.

 

Shawn

[futuretgper]

people said u can't use the jeffm chips with a 5 speed.....or fuse the stuff from jeffm with a 5 speed so what exaclty are u talking about/referencing??

[Guest TurboSedan]

So it wouldn't have all of the fixes that a Jeff M chip has, which anyone with a 5 speed LG5 wants.

 

Shawn

 

oh, i don't know about that Jeff M isn't the GOD of chip burning, there are quite a few DIY'ers out there that really know what they are doing....Mick in particular (GMPCM owner).

[Guest TurboSedan]

people said u can't use the jeffm chips with a 5 speed.

 

you can't use a Jeff M TG chip with a 5-speed....unless you modify the TG chip yourself that is

[Jeff M]

people said u can't use the jeffm chips with a 5 speed.

 

you can't use a Jeff M TG chip with a 5-speed....unless you modify the TG chip yourself that is

 

Unless you own a TopGun Chip first

 

No I am no god on the TGP/TSTE Chip , you don’t have to slap the guys statement , he did not even hint at it , its ok if he wants to give a little nod for my work, I mean I have been tuning intensely for 10 years on the TGP/TSTE chip :!: There is only one other guy who is equal to/greater than actually :!: and has some super smarts, good support and background knowledge and spent years at it to get there too 8) , is there anyone else that has been around this long doing just this chip regularly :?: personally logging hundreds of tuning hours on over 50 TGPs/TSTES??? Lets make sure what I explain my self as IS NOT meant to say if you can't match this then you are not any good, bullshit, I don't disrespect people that way!! I have chips for 100 octane, cam upgrades and many others but from the history with the bootleg copy of my TopGun by others, these will never be release as I don’t want them stolen, it’s a pity for the rest of people . I won't even answer those asking for them as it just sucks opening up the discussion. I have gotten a kick out of some who got their feet wet when they found a few tables, made some changes and did not break anything and then became chip tuners who could then scoff their nose at me, pisses them off more when I don’t get mad and wish them continued good luck, which I do :!: :!: 8) Mick is computer savvy, many different areas and to great lengths, I will give him that, but is a ways from real chip tuning actually, just a fact, he speaks well and like he is very good and in some areas that may be the case but I have heard him talk this way with statements that were not from good knowledge and were wrong, one such statement was saying that the computer will go blind and not work/not continue to run the engine when you exceed 15 psi/the max signal from a 2-bar map, when actually the chip will just use the last value in the chip for 15 psi and keep right on running, I know this as long time ago I ran 17-18 psi (on 40 degree or colder ambient) and 100 octane for 3 months (the power was so addictive I could not break down and go back to 92 octane !!), same with SyTy owners for years who ran higher octane and past 15 psi on a 20bar, that were glued to their knock readings. But I still do not hear of anyone discussing tuning on the message boards (even on Mick's site ) in the level of understanding you must have and the level I have heard from those who are true chip tuning gurus.....lets say you do heads and/or cam and/or larger turbo and add more air from these upgrades, then you need more fuel but how much, wide-band starts you there but the fueling tables are so vast in this chip it takes a ton of work to get through the right one(s), and the only guy I would give great TGP chip tuning credit to took out a number of the fueling tables to simplify it even for him :shock: . So you added more fuel but do you add more timing to allow burning this larger mix or hesitate on that assumption since more air will raise the pressure of the mix as it gets compressed and maybe you need to reduce the timing...you know, we back off timing when we raise the boost, same diff, but which way do you go and at what rpm and load??!! Once we decide the timing direction, how will you know how far to go, seat of the pants???...crazy, use knock to tell you, no, dyno, getting closer but that will take hours to simulate 1 psi of boost and all rpms, then 2 psi and all rpms and so forth, then supply the engine with cold air then warm air then hot air as this WILL make a difference on your final/safest tuning results, but those changes are in yet another batch of temp tables that have to be understood and worked on to decide which contributes in the direction you need, and it’s a mix of these to get the necessary results. There are other tricks, those key items final tuning efforts need to succeed that I have heard only from guys who work for tuner shops as well as GM Tuners and McLaren Tuners, but they won't give them out freely on the internet, that is their bread and butter , besides they would have to write a book, a very thick book.

 

Over the years many have come back to me to say the chip tuning they got into did not work out, yanking out 24 pound injectors, yanking out cam upgrades etc, it sucks when I hear this, many are good guys that I have worked with a lot in the past and I share in their dissapointment :!: . As an example, Ben on the 60 degree eluded to the work it took him to do a manual version to a chip, many many hours that ended in just one area 100-150 changes in drivability just to keep the engine running, areas in decel enlean, throttle follower, IAC and others, lot of work and I share his pain that it took to get there, it’s a brain drain to work on all this, and keep it up for hours, days. It takes a lot of commitment and time and tools and money, most of all an open mind that there is a lot of key info needed to do all your engine/turbo work credit that is not on the internet and not found from just stroking the keys thinking it will happen while you test and tune. Its such vast info that no one can just type it all up and offer a (collage level 100-400) classes to graduate you. GMTech students I know say they spent a great many terms in others engine related areas before they ever get to do the tuning classes (GMCM Marcro Cross-Assembler Language), then there are so many book classes in the areas of tuning (drivability, emissions, power, and those are just a few) before they get to the good stuff, the lab classes 8) . My good friend Curtis Walker who I respect greatly struggled with the suppliers/tech support of his aftermarket engine management system (which are vastly simple as compared to the OEMs) to get final tuning done, it was a few years before he got some final tuning and the best times ever for an LG5 motor 8) 8) . I have always tried to give guys looking to do their own chips enough fear to keep them on the safe side as they progressed (NOT just they can knock and go boom), not stop them but make them work on the knowledge they need to succeed first, and never assume. But it’s the Internet's fault a lot of time and I have heard this from many people on topics well beyond just chips, that you hear a few who talk then people take it as gospel and off they go. The web site I like best is on the F-Body that is one of the most thorough in getting someone the info they need to start tuning a chip (theirs, which is different than ours), but they only cover safety (good points!!), some power tuning ideas and some drivability tips, but not all that is needed and no tricks or meat to know what will work for good final power tuning your mods, they are still trying to figure that out fully, its just not that simple but they have advanced more than any site has shown so far I have seen . The years I have spent have me wishing it was simpler or I could have been where I am at now long time ago, but at least what I do now is more gratifying with the immediate results, but I still extend what I know to try and link more workings of the chip as its vastness though better at managing an engine than any aftermarket, is overkill in some areas, but if stroked properly, can make an engine run quite well.

 

Jeff M.

[dbtk2]

So it wouldn't have all of the fixes that a Jeff M chip has, which anyone with a 5 speed LG5 wants.

 

Shawn

 

oh, i don't know about that Jeff M isn't the GOD of chip burning, there are quite a few DIY'ers out there that really know what they are doing....Mick in particular (GMPCM owner).

 

I don't recall saying he was a "god." I am saying that by the description, it looks as though that is a stock chip. No raised boost, no altered boost ramp, etc... Maybe it does have most of the same changes and maybe even some others that might help more, but it doens't say it on there anyways. I get the impression its a stock chip setup for use with a 5 speed and lower fan turn on/off points.

 

Shawn

[z24 turbo 93]

5 speed chip is sub par at that! drivability sucks, it bucks and craps out all over under moderate acceleration. The only way for the car to run smooth is to run it at 0 psi or above so you are in ve tables!!!

[TGPilot]

I should just sit back and laugh about this topic arrising for the 100th time, but I just can't help it!!

 

Chip tuning is not rocket science guys. It does take knowledge and experience...but once you run through the chip 4 or 5 times it becomes redundant. I have been working with my Talon's chip for the last month and the similarities between my previously owned 5 Speed TGP, currently my TSTE, and my Talon of "x" upgrade + "y" chip change = "z" end result on datalogger is scarey. For someone to come into chip tuning who has difficulty doing a tire change is not uncommon. Many people out there are technologically educated, but have zero sense of mechanics. The best outcome would of course be someone who is educated in both.

 

The constant fear pounding to people saying they should not do it is just crazy to me! Why say any of it besides...BE CAREFUL and these are the things to look out for! People can come to their own conclusions as to why say more!

 

As far as needing 100-150 changes to make a 5-speed drive well?? No way! 100-150 changes to super tweak and squeeze out every ounce of performance from a considerably modified LG5 setup. Maybe if you start with the most original version of the TGP auto chip you would need 80-90 with the original version. I just opened my .bin that is in Luke's car when I sold it to him and with the AZRC version I made (with Mick's help) 50-53 changes from the AZRC .pcm file and hmmmm....320 ft/lbs and 222 HP to the wheels at 5000' above sea-level sure looks like it worked to me.

 

I feel the rules have been laid down pretty hard when it comes to discussing Jeff M's chips that they may not be discussed or disected in detail. Anytime a 5-speed chip is brought up there is always this back and forth about boot-legs and such! I would like to lay ground rules about the 5-speed chips. IF YOU HAVE NOT PARTICIPATED DIRECTLY IN THE DEVELOPEMENT OF A 5-SPEED CHIP....YOU HAVE ZERO INPUT IN THE SUBJECT!!

 

I will be back into the 5-speed chips for the TGP/TSTE's by mid-summer. When that happens I will work with anyone in an open forum I will be putting together on my own webpage and tied in with Mick's. I have a copy of my last version of the 5-speed TGP chip...but with the extremely lean condition we witnessed on Luke's car on the dyno, I will not let it go until I have a working test bed to make sure it is not actual readings, but a problem with the A/F meter at the dyno! 8)

[TGPilot]

5 speed chip is sub par at that! drivability sucks, it bucks and craps out all over under moderate acceleration. The only way for the car to run smooth is to run it at 0 psi or above so you are in ve tables!!!

 

Which 5-speed chip are you talking about?

 

The GM 5-speed chip (forgot the code set #) will absolutely not run well on a LG5 platform! Considering you are trying to run a normally aspirated .pcm code set in a complex turbo environment...

[Jeff M]

So it wouldn't have all of the fixes that a Jeff M chip has, which anyone with a 5 speed LG5 wants.

 

Shawn

 

oh, i don't know about that Jeff M isn't the GOD of chip burning, there are quite a few DIY'ers out there that really know what they are doing....Mick in particular (GMPCM owner).

 

I don't recall saying he was a "god." I am saying that by the description, it looks as though that is a stock chip. No raised boost, no altered boost ramp, etc... Maybe it does have most of the same changes and maybe even some others that might help more, but it doens't say it on there anyways. I get the impression its a stock chip setup for use with a 5 speed and lower fan turn on/off points.

 

Shawn

 

There might be some thoughts here about an updated chip that GM did for these cars, there are several ones to pick from. But the one thought here I believe was an overkill chip with many changes that really did not address well its objectives and needed much work to iron outs its own inherent problems . The original chip had its issues too, but this updated one changed something that was very valuable, converting to Inlet Air Temp instead to Manifold Air Temp computations. It took a lot of changes, and additions to tables (some that started with a bunch of zeros even) in the chip to set this up, then many adjustments to correct a lot of those but the key is getting away from just MAT and going with Inlettemp. There are also a ton of other changes that when I started thinking about it, would be more of a nightmare for manual guys, things I did like slipping the car into neutral and coasting to a stop, also downshifting (while I tweaked Decel Enlean and DFCO and throttle follower to name a few) so maybe this chip is not the best for a manual patch :!: So god has spoken, thou should doith what I command and try other chips …oops I revealed chip tuning for a 5-speed, but anyone that has made 4 or 5 changes is getting good enough to know all the factors about chip tuning so I am tell you nothing you don’t already know .

 

And for the others who are not avid about the chip, Inlet Temp does wonderful things taking into account that engine temp/coolant has an effect on air temp as air travels through the lower intake and heads before it finishes up in the cylinder/combustion chamber. If we use just the Upper Intake Plenum air temp and some of the heat soak passed into the MAT Sensor from the upper intake metal, we leave out the greater effects of the heating the air gets from the hotter areas of the engine, that being the long runner-lower intake, and the heads, and combustion chamber/cylinder walls. The upper intake and MAT Sensor get their main heat soaking from these lower parts, but never gets as hot as its lower parts. And its not just being as hot as these lower parts, it’s also the transitions as the engine warms up from being cold, and as we go into and out of boost. A cold engine with the same outside air temp will be different than a fully warm engine with the same outside air temp. Also when we go into boost and the air temp coming from the intercooler climbs to over 150 degrees (depending on the outside air temp supplying the turbo and cooling the intercooler, and boost pressure), things change again, even when we are not in boost the air temps climbs, odd but if someone were to test their outlet temp from the turbo they would see that even below boost/light acceleration, the air temp is raising :shock: . Then there is how long the air is sitting in the plenum waiting for a valve to open, the air gets more heated up at lower rpms then at higher rpms. Then after a hot engine has been shut off and the engine heat starts to soak into the upper intake/MAT making it closer to the engine temp, which is different then when the engine is running and air is coming into the intakes having a cooling effect. These are just a few factors of what is trying to be addressed which is better than just a simple MAT Sensor, and it takes a lot of tables to work out a better solution of actual air temp entering the combustion chamber. McLaren had to spend many hours of dyno testing to simulate as many as these temperature variables to get good values into these tables, and when I toured the McLaren Plant I was able to see their setup to do this, an engine dyno with machines to control/vary the air temp being supplied to an engine and another machine to control/vary the coolant temp in an engine, and holes/temp sensors drilled into the engine all over the place 8) , that was a place I wish I could have access to :!: .

 

Jeff M

[Jeff M]

I should just sit back and laugh about this topic arrising for the 100th time, but I just can't help it!!

 

I am telling your employer you are not working at your desk You also got a PM, best place to ask question of me 8) I am about to detail up a car today then be ready to sell this evening so my employer won't let me reply till later tonight :oops: sorry, just to let you know 8)

 

Jeff M

[TGPilot]

You also got a PM, best place to ask question of me 8) Jeff M

 

You have one also...don't take it to heart!

[perfecseal]

wow there is alot of tension on this 5 speed thing ,, Still after the 500th time it has been posted and this person sas this and that person says that ... I perpose a sticky on this subject so that everyone can look there and we can all save alot of time typeing.. ...

 

p.s. jeff I pmed you check your messages

[Jeff M]

Me and Kenny had a nice PM, we be cool, just a missunderstanding. I never used his name on the subject and he is not doing the manul chip and has not for quite some time :shock: so we can clear that out now 8) . I replied to your PM regarding parts, see you soon!!!

 

Later I said!!!!!

 

Jeff M

[futuretgper]

jeffm do u think youll swap in a 5 speed and do some tinkering??

 

ps im still not sure of the verdict on the gmpcm.com 5speed patch......it sounded like its no good...but is it a good place to start even....

[TGPilot]

ps im still not sure of the verdict on the gmpcm.com 5speed patch......it sounded like its no good...but is it a good place to start even....

 

I think you addressed this question to Jeff so I apologize if I answer out of turn. I used the GMPCM software to edit my 5-speed chips back 2 or 3 years ago and loved it. I am not aware of a specific patch for 5-speed applications. Back when I was using it it was constantly updated for ease of user interface so I am assuming not having used it in a couple years...that it would be even better now!

 

Just my opinion. I know there are a few folks who tried to use the early versions of GMPCM and hated it! Like I said there have been tons of updates for user interface and understanding... 8)

[futuretgper]

go to gmpcm.com and find you can download the program and the 5-speed patch for free....my dads friend is gonna buy a turbo grand prix and wants a 5 speed and hes the one who found this.....ive been told on here u gotta buy one from someone.......but this was a free download........has anyone tried it!!!

 

here the link

 

http://www.gmpcm.com/filesdb/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=708

 

thats the patch im talking about TGPilot....thanks for the user evalution of GMPCM!!!!!

[Jeff M]

wow there is alot of tension on this 5 speed thing ,, Still after the 500th time it has been posted and this person sas this and that person says that ... I perpose a sticky on this subject so that everyone can look there and we can all save alot of time typeing.. ...

 

p.s. jeff I pmed you check your messages

 

No this would not be a good sticky

 

So were you waiting for a reply on the topic??? Seems that has been answered above now 8)

 

Car I have been trying to clean up is done, need to clean me and type up a "Sales Receipt " paper 8) .

 

Jeff M

[TGPilot]

here the link

 

http://www.gmpcm.com/filesdb/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=708

 

thats the patch im talking about TGPilot....thanks for the user evalution of GMPCM!!!!!

 

I have not seen it as it looks like it was added only 1 year ago. If Mick is the author then I am sure it is a great place to start! I would go onto GMPCM forums and ask him who made it. 8)

[skalor]

The 5 speed patch only makes a couple changes, and it doesn't make changes to DECEL, DFCO. Which are the two most important changes to be made when tuning a 5 speed LG5. I lost all my binary files when my last HD crashed, so my only good 5 speed binary is still in my TGP and I don't have a good version of GMPCM as I haven't reinstalled it yet. Anyways, I'm all for discussing what changes need to be made for a 5 speed LG5 chip, but that excludes talking about any changes in particular that Jeff M. has made to his chips. I used his chip as a starting point for my own personal 5 speed chip and that's why I don't give it away.

 

Scot Sealander has made some impressive changes to TGP code, and he frequents these boards once in a while. He usually hangs out in the GMEFI mailing list and can be reached there for anyone needing in depth tuning advice that people here cannot answer. He's the one Jeff M. was talking about in earlier posts and I believe he combined the two VE tables in order to tune easier. He also has a MAF sensor that he uses for airflow calculations, but it still runs off the MAP. 8)

[maybe2fast]

Jeff M, I really am not trying to screw you, but http://www.gmtuners.com may be able to help also. again I am not trying to draw people away from you.

[TGPilot]

Anyways, I'm all for discussing what changes need to be made for a 5 speed LG5 chip, but that excludes talking about any changes in particular that Jeff M. has made to his chips.

 

DITTO! :read:

 

Only problem is I have been out of it for so long that it would take a week or two of playing to get back up to speed. Plus I do not have a 5-speed car to test on! That is soon to change because all of this talk has gotten me to search for a donor car! :shock: 8)