Regular unleaded vs premium

[z34_nut]

Now i have seen shell advertise a "special" fuel that they offer. They claim it has addictives and so forth. I forget what its called, but I know I'm not nuts.

V-Power. I noticed no difference between it and other gas. Those fuckers at shell want $0.11 more than midgrade too! (when others are only $0.10 more)

 

I like going to mini mart because if I use my smith's car (grocery store) I get 5 cents off a gallon.

 

if you do the math, 1 cent really doesn't make a difference. At least not with constant changing prices.

[GP1138]

I wash my nuts. I do it for free.

 

:lol2: :lol2: I don't know why, but that made me LMFAO!!1

[z34_nut]

that was directed towards some one who can't spell "track"

[f_399]

was it the guy who said race trac?

[Brian P]

to clarify, "RACE TRAC" is a gas/service station. Similar to the "Fast trac" you'd find in the eastern states.

[z34_nut]

to clarify, "RACE TRAC" is a gas/service station. Similar to the "Fast trac" you'd find in the eastern states.

 

hell never even heard of that

[john99gtp]

never heard of either of those.

 

 

and i use shell vpower every once in a while. depends on where i am when i run out of gas.

 

 

i goto mobile mostly though. they are 2 cents higher, but thats only 32cents a fillup.

[cutlsp]

to clarify, "RACE TRAC" is a gas/service station. Similar to the "Fast trac" you'd find in the eastern states.

:withstupid: there really are a bunch of gas stations with that name around here if you need proof i'll take a picture of the pumps when i fill up my truck again

[digitaloutsider]

http://www.racetrac.com/

[cutlsp]

http://www.racetrac.com/

Duh they have a website everywhere has websites now i feel stupid :oops:

[Dannymik]

i don't want to tell anyone what he did its just quicker up to 75 now but it lags after 75 so its not 100% the way i want it but its getting there

 

I feel like jumping off a cliff right now :alcoholic:

[digitaloutsider]

Maybe he put that GTX engine in it..

[john99gtp]

Maybe he put that GTX engine in it..

 

 

[Dannymik]

Maybe he put that GTX engine in it..

 

 

 

I still need to see pictures of the GTX... :read:

[kcac]

This will make you think twice about buying premium gas. At least if you happen to be in Wisconsin.

 

Original URL: http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/apr05/317263.asp

 

Premium disservice at the pump

Some high-octane gas really isn't, and state isn't really checking

By RAQUEL RUTLEDGE

Posted: April 10, 2005

 

Drivers pumping premium into their gas tanks aren't always getting high-octane fuel and instead get swindled by service station owners and delivery drivers, a Journal Sentinel investigation has found.

 

No one can say exactly how prevalent fraud at the pumps is because the state's octane testing program has been dysfunctional for years, regulators concede. But industry insiders and state petroleum inspectors say it is common.

 

"Gas is being mixed in the tanks improperly when it's delivered," said Marty Kehrein, president of Wisconsin State Inspectors Local 333, which represents Wisconsin's petroleum inspectors. "The octane might not be what it's stated to be, and they (inspectors) have been told by supervisors they can't investigate."

 

According to industry sources, corrupt station owners strike when they know the price of gas is going up the next day. Some watch the futures crude market on the Internet, others keep in close contact with distributors, still others watch for oil companies to post the following day's price hours before it takes effect.

Ordering too much

 

The station owners want to buy as much as they can before the new price kicks in, so they intentionally order too much regular no-lead gasoline, and when the trucks arrive to deliver it, there is not enough room in the station's storage tanks to handle it. Station owners or employees then tell the truck drivers to dump the extra into the premium tanks, which often aren't kept as full. They may even offer the drivers a tip for the switch.

 

"People make mistakes, but it's obvious some people are scheduling mistakes," said Greg Klimek, president of Klemm Tank Lines, Wisconsin's largest transport company. "The opportunity is definitely there."

 

The delivery drivers do not have to comply. They can call their company's dispatcher - as required - and seek another station to take the remaining load. But drivers are usually paid per delivery and rush to make as many drops as possible. Seeking another station slows them down and, ultimately, there may not be one that can take the blend or amount of fuel they're carrying.

 

In addition, if the driver objects, the station owner may find a new hauler.

 

"It's too much of a whore's market," said the owner of one petroleum transport company, referring to competition among haulers. "There are too many guys that will truck their fuel." The transport company owner - who feared that having his name published would peg him as a rat and destroy his business - said he has lost contracts for not going along with the deception.

 

"I've worked hard to try and maintain integrity, but the industry and the people driving it make it almost impossible," he said. "Some of them are just . . . crooked. They can get away with it. There's nobody policing it."

Testing problems

 

Officials with the state Department of Commerce, which regulates petroleum, said they didn't find any octane fraud in Wisconsin last year. But that isn't saying much.

 

In 1995, the state spent nearly $300,000 on 14 fuel testing units, but there were "major problems" keeping the equipment calibrated and maintained, said Phil Albert, director of the bureau of petroleum products and tanks. Documents show the state spent more than $200,000 over the years servicing the machines but could not keep them consistently working.

 

"We called it the $20,000 nightlight," said one inspector who did not want his name published for fear of retribution from managers. "It was plugged in. There was a light on. But it just didn't work. . . . For nine years, these people (administrators) spent money on stuff they knew didn't work."

 

One former section chief acknowledged the problems in a February 2000 e-mail to all inspectors.

 

"For some time I have been concerned over your reports of poor data from the Midac analyzer," wrote Darla LeGrave, who is no longer with the Commerce Department.

 

The memo informed the staff that Midac Corp., the Costa Mesa, Calif.-based manufacturer of the fuel analyzers, would again be re-calibrating the equipment.

 

But the problems continued.

 

A September 2001 complaint signed by inspectors Steve Mertens and Glenn Peterman said that if managers were "serious about a quality operation they would correct the million dollar fraud they are perpetuating on the Wisconsin taxpayer using a faulty product screening process."

 

And an e-mail from inspector Kathleen Strasser to the division administrator dated Feb. 21, 2002, said "knowing that the Midacs don't really work as is, it seems kind of ridiculous to 'fix' them."

 

Midac executives blamed the Commerce Department for not properly maintaining their equipment. Jerry Auth, president of Midac, recalled his staff calibrating Wisconsin's equipment. It would work fine, he said "then you'd turn your back and it would all go to hell."

 

"The State of Wisconsin was not doing what was required," he said."(The Midac machine) is reliable if you run it and treat it right. If you take a fine camera or a watch and whack it on the ground, what do you expect?"

 

In July 2004, the state traded the old testing equipment for five new machines, one for each of five labs. In a cost-cutting measure, it eliminated testing at seven other labs.

 

Inspectors said in February and again in March that the new machines - Irox 2000s manufactured by Petrolab Co., which cost the state $100,000 - also don't work. Like the old machines, they need frequent upgrading, inspectors said.

 

Albert, of the Commerce Department, defended the latest purchase.

 

"I may have heard complaints, but that doesn't mean I don't have faith in the machinery," he said. "It's the best piece of equipment out there."

 

But the best isn't good enough, at least for the courts. In fact, neither of the state's equipment purchases in the last decade has been sufficient to legally pursue suspected cases of octane fraud. The only method approved by the American Society for Testing Materials, a non-profit agency that creates standards for a variety of industries worldwide, is running samples through actual test engines. Some states have test engines, which can cost more than $250,000 each. Wisconsin is not one of them.

 

In order to pursue litigation for octane fraud, the state would have to contract with a private company and possibly pay $200 to $250 per sample, Albert said.

 

The state attorney general's office said the Department of Commerce has not referred an octane case for prosecution in recent memory.

Wisconsin lags

 

The State of Michigan does have test engines, and it nailed 26 retailers for octane fraud in 2004 and levied fines of more than $34,000.

 

"That's the largest problem we deal with right now," said Celeste Bennett, the Michigan Department of Agriculture's motor fuel quality program manager.

 

Bennett said roughly 40% of all violations are octane-related and that as the price of gasoline soars, the issue becomes even more important.

 

"Nobody's buying it (premium) anymore because they think it's better for their car," she said. "They're buying it because their cars need it."

 

Nationally, premium sales have dropped to about 11% of total retail fuel sales. In Wisconsin that number is down to roughly 6%.

 

Indiana launched an aggressive octane testing program in 1991, after legislators there suspected widespread fraud. The first year of testing showed corruption was even worse than lawmakers thought. Half of all the gasoline tested did not contain the reported levels of octane, said Larry Stump, director of the Indiana Division of Weights and Measures.

 

"It was a nightmare," he said.

 

The state now tests about a third of all stations every year, still not as much as Stump would like but all the state can afford, he said.

 

"We're not finding (problems) like we were," he said. "Enforcement does work."

 

Robert Bartlett, executive vice president of the Petroleum Marketers Association of Wisconsin, said he doesn't believe octane fraud is common in Wisconsin. Bartlett's agency represents roughly 2,500 stations in the state, and he meets with owners regularly. Honest owners would be complaining if their competitors were undercutting them illegally, he said.

 

"I haven't heard much about it," he said. "There's pretty good self-regulation. If it was widespread I would have heard more about it."

 

Bartlett said station owners are being squeezed on several fronts and are constantly seeking ways to boost revenues. When motorists pay at the pump, as about 75% now do, they don't shop for snacks, sodas or other goods that raise revenues. In addition, credit card fees climb along with the price of gas. When gas cost $1 per gallon, for example, the station might pay three cents to Master Card or Visa. When gas hit $2 a gallon, the fee doubled to six cents, even though the markup per gallon remained the same, typically 10 cents.

 

"That creates incredible pressure on retailers," Bartlett said.

 

Plus, with the higher cost of gas, motorists have less disposable cash in their pockets to spend even if they do pay inside, he said.

 

Dick Hock left the gas station business last July after 37 years. He said the jump in credit card use and popularity of paying at the pump nearly crippled his business.

 

"When you put pencil and paper to it, it was, how much was I losing per gallon, not how much was I making," said Hock, whose Dick's North Shore Mobil station sat at N. Port Washington Road and W. Silver Spring Drive in Glendale.

 

Many customers believe gas stations are owned by the hugely profitable oil giants whose name the station bears, when in reality 95% are locally owned by small-business owners, Hock said.

 

"Customers don't come in. You never get to meet them," he supposed. "There's no loyalty anymore."

 

Honest station owners are struggling to survive, he said.

 

Crooked station owners trying to offset their shrinking margins illegally only make it worse, he said.

 

"It's no myth," he said. "They're out there. It just makes you sick."

[sl3196]

Now i have seen shell advertise a "special" fuel that they offer. They claim it has addictives and so forth. I forget what its called, but I know I'm not nuts.

V-Power. I noticed no difference between it and other gas. Those fuckers at shell want $0.11 more than midgrade too! (when others are only $0.10 more)

 

I like going to mini mart because if I use my smith's car (grocery store) I get 5 cents off a gallon.

 

if you do the math, 1 cent really doesn't make a difference. At least not with constant changing prices.

It's the principal of it!

[slick]

Damn the high compression...

[z34_nut]

Damn the high compression...

 

Ooooh its worth it..

[slick]

Damn the high compression...

 

Ooooh its worth it..

 

Yes, yes it is.

[sonyman87]

The Octane rating on the pump is an "Average" garentee octane level. in your Standard gas you may have a 5% difference in actual octane.

 

its been 4 years since my chem2 class so correct me if im wrong but

 

As far as what octane # really means its the Number of elements linked together to form a molecule chain. Thats why the larger the octane, the longer it is to break down. It dosnt burn slower but it takes longer for it to combust b/c of the extra molecules to combust = more energy per volume.

[GnatGoSplat]

As far as what octane # really means its the Number of elements linked together to form a molecule chain. Thats why the larger the octane, the longer it is to break down. It dosnt burn slower but it takes longer for it to combust b/c of the extra molecules to combust = more energy per volume.

 

You've got that backwards. Higher octane = LESS energy per volume.

Check Google to verify.

[ursus]

...It dosnt burn slower but it takes longer for it to combust ...

 

HUH ?

 

Please splain dah differnece Lucy

[Brian P]

...It dosnt burn slower but it takes longer for it to combust ...

 

HUH ?

 

Please splain dah differnece Lucy

 

Take your medicine bitch:

 

 

LOLL

[Jeorge]

NO increase? what the heck are you people talking about...what are you all just a bunch of kids that Just drive in the city?

 

 

 

okay I keep track of MPG religously on all my cars.

 

I buy gas at only Holiday stations

they have 87/89/91 non oxy

 

 

94 GA GT 3100 Auto.

 

87 I get 22 mpg city/hwy Driving

89 I get 25.5 city/hwy

91 I get 28.0 city/hwy

 

take into acount I dont have Overdrive in the car damn leak in the vac.

 

in My STE I get 23 MPG city/hwy with 89

and I get 32 city/hwy using 91

I have only used 2 tanks of 89 in that car and missed the power and milage.

 

 

on a properly tuned and clean car you will notice a differance. the computer will notice the differance in the burn after about a tank or so and adjust to make maximum use of it.

 

 

I would like to know where I can get gas for 1.80/gallon being I would take a tanker Truck from work and go load up.

 

here the Prices change daily

but since the increase in flux the Price differance between 87 and 91 has Dropped alot there is only $.10 differance now. insted of $.25.

 

so right now gas it 2.05 and 2.15 and shit I was paying 2.15 for my ste 2 years ago. so Im not upset about gas prices.

 

and one of the things to look for is stations that have 87 the two lower octains at the same price. at holiday I get 89 for the price of 87.

 

Im not saying go out and put 91 into your car but if you use seafoam and upgrad to 89/90 what ever you have there for the mid grade thats what I would use.

 

and on a side note. with a gas can you should beable to go to an airport and get some 110-115 for about $2.00/gallon I know they let us here do that just cant Drive up to the pump otherwise they charge you road tax. I have done that from time to time also and with that in the STE I really notice the differance. and there is a station here that sells Racing Fuel at the pump for 3.75/gal I bought one tank of that for my sSTE after I had it dyno'd (they where the ones that told me about the place is a back woods kind of place) and that stuff was insane.

[Brian P]

I fill up about once every 4-5 days. On my '95 I've only used 87 and I track my MPG every time. THe engine has new heads, lower + upper manifolds, pistons were cleaned while everything's apart so there's no carbon deposits at all. On days where I travel to work and/or school I get between 21-23mpg with a mix of city/hwy driving. I'm gonna accept your challenge and (regretfully- price wise) fill up next tank with premium at about $2.55/gal and see if my economy goes above average. FWIW I "bought" a bottle of this "30% fuel economy increase" potion from work and dumped it in the tank on THIS current fillup, will inform if it really did increase 30% as that would equal to about 29mpg with my mixed driving.