MonteC Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 problems arise.... today i was driving the GP and i came to my first stop light on my way to work, i stop, the car surges a couple of times, then dies. i start the car back up, put it in gear and go about my merry way. it happens a few more times on my way to work.... then on my way home as im sittin in traffic it does it numerous times. it seems to only do this when the car is warmed up. the GP is running at 220, some times a little higher, sometimes a little lower, but for the most part 220. is that too hot? to recap, i stop, car surges a few times, then dies, but it starts right back up. this is gettin kinda annoying and embarrasing, cause i keep holding up traffic every time this happens. anybody have any input? thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prospeeder Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 not to hijack, but whats surging? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteC Posted April 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 the rpms jump up to 1500 then back down to almost 0, then back up, then back down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Surging may be a result of a vacuum leak, egr partially opened, or faulty IAC to name a few. Brief checklist: Check over the vacuum lines coming out of the TB and going to various sensors for leaks/cracks. Remove, clean, replace the idle air control valve (black cylinder on the top half of the throttle) then next to the washer fluid tank there's a ECM fuse- 20a. Remove and replace to reset the computer (car off obviously), and do an idle relearn. The relearn procedure is listed here somewhere but basically start the engine and put it into drive (brake applied), let it sit idling for 7 minutes. Shut off 10 seconds, restart and repeat idling in drive for another couple minutes, then take it for a drive and see if it improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1990lumina Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Sounds like what car did at one time...an idle relearn cleared up the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Moff Joseph Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Before you do any costly repairs, purchase a new electric solenoid (sp?) for the torque converter. This part controls the lock-up feature on the converter, and if it fails, it almost always fails in the "lock" position, which will cause the surging/killing problem that you are having. Essentially, what is happening is the torque converter is continually locked, and when you try to stop, the converter should is not unlocking such that the car can use the engine's power to help you stop. Instead, it is trying to stay locked when the engine is trying to stop, so the engine gives up and kills on you. Also, as you stated, this problem wil only crop up when the engine is hot. When cold, the lock up does not engage at all becase the engine is still trying to warm up. This part is approx. $50, and can be installed easily. Just pull the old one out, and plug the new one in. This part (at least on a Lumina) sits outside of the transmission housing, so it is easy to get to. If this does not fix the problem, then move on to larger repairs, but try this inexpensive fix first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bossman429 Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 This part is approx. $50, and can be installed easily. Just pull the old one out, and plug the new one in. This part (at least on a Lumina) sits outside of the transmission housing, so it is easy to get to. If this does not fix the problem, then move on to larger repairs, but try this inexpensive fix first. If you are talking about the TCC Solenoid, it is a pretty big job on a 4T60 Trans. Like several hours worth of labor. There is a plug for it on the front of the trans, but the actual solenoid is inside the trans. It requires taking the side pan off of the trans. A failing TCC solenoid will cause the car to run fine in P or N, but die as soon as it is put in drive. If when driving, and you exit a highway, come to a stop, and the car dies as if it was a manual car and you forgot to push the clutch in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Just go to the junkyard, find a fairly low mileage 3.1, take the two Torx bolts off and shove the thing in your pocket. It's that small, it's most likely your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THe_DeTAiL3R Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 If it's just stalling I'd bet its dirty/bad IAC.. had similar problems with my 2.8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteC Posted April 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 it "surges" when i put in park, neutral, reverse, and drive, so i dont think its the transaxle but ill check all this stuff out. im really new to diagnosing problems on FI cars, im used to big carbourated v8s. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Moff Joseph Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 This part is approx. $50, and can be installed easily. Just pull the old one out, and plug the new one in. This part (at least on a Lumina) sits outside of the transmission housing, so it is easy to get to. If this does not fix the problem, then move on to larger repairs, but try this inexpensive fix first. If you are talking about the TCC Solenoid, it is a pretty big job on a 4T60 Trans. Like several hours worth of labor. There is a plug for it on the front of the trans, but the actual solenoid is inside the trans. It requires taking the side pan off of the trans. A failing TCC solenoid will cause the car to run fine in P or N, but die as soon as it is put in drive. If when driving, and you exit a highway, come to a stop, and the car dies as if it was a manual car and you forgot to push the clutch in. Ouch. Well, my Lumina's got the old style 4-speed tranny (284 I think), which has no electronic stuff at all. So, it took the shop like 45 minutes to change it out. I assumed that it would be that easy for the rest of y'all as well. My bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 it "surges" when i put in park, neutral, reverse, and drive, so i dont think its the transaxle but ill check all this stuff out. im really new to diagnosing problems on FI cars, im used to big carbourated v8s. lol Yeah, that definitely sounds like the IAC. Change it (or clean yours real good) and tell us what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwmin Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Ouch. Well, my Lumina's got the old style 4-speed tranny (284 I think), which has no electronic stuff at all. So, it took the shop like 45 minutes to change it out. I assumed that it would be that easy for the rest of y'all as well. My bad. 284 is a five-sp manual, yours is probably the 440t4 or plain old 4t60 anyway, when my car would surge it was because of the EVAP system, but that should throw a code. im sorta surprised it hasnt yet anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Moff Joseph Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 *slap myself in the head* DUH the 284 is a manual. WTF is with my head today? Yeah, my car is a 440t4. I wish I could have the 4T60, but that requires a new computer and such. Anyway, thnks for pointing out my goof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteC Posted April 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 i cleaned out the IAC housing and just went ahead and bought a new IAC, the old one looked fuggin nasty. anyway, when my car would surge it was because of the EVAP system, but that should throw a code. im sorta surprised it hasnt yet anyway DOH! i am throwing codes. the light has been on since i bought it, i "though" i checked them when i first got it home. but its been so long since ive had to pull codes that i didnt wait for the code 12 to flash 3 times, THEN the problem codes show up. FUKING DUH!!!! sorry guys code 22. TPS code 43 ESC would a bad tps be the cause of my problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Yes, that could cause the problem you're describing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteC Posted April 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 well the iac wasnt a totally waste. aside from the bad idle and cuttin off, when it does run, IT RUNS! before the car was very sluggish, and wouldnt even get out of its own way, now its pepped up quite a bit. alright i guess ill go replace the TPS, cant cost too much? right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 nah like $20 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Moff Joseph Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 just don't forget to buy a cover sheet to go with the TPS /bad joke, I know //puts on flame retardent suit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1138 Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 just don't forget to buy a cover sheet to go with the TPS /bad joke, I know //puts on flame retardent suit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteC Posted April 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 great movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteC Posted April 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 oh boy the ESC cost alot more than i want to spend. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian P Posted April 27, 2005 Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 esc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteC Posted April 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 CODE 43 Trouble Code 43 indicates that there may be a malfunction in the Electronic Spark Control (ESC) circuit. ESC is used to sense spark knock (pinging) and retard the timing to eliminate it. The knock sensor is located at the rear of the engine block. The ECM will retard the timing by as much as 20 degrees in 1 degree increments. A loss of knock sensor signal or loss of ground at the ESC module will cause the signal at the ECM to remain high. The ECM will act as if no knock is present, and may possibly result in engine damage, due to detonation. Code 43 is set when: Voltage at Knock Sensor is above 4.8 volts or below .64 volts. Either condition is met for about 10 seconds. Possible causes: Open or shorted knock sensor Loose knock sensor Excessive mechanical noise within engine Improper or incorrectly installed MEM-CAL in the ECM or defective ECM Intermittent open in the EST line to the ignition module Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteC Posted April 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2005 ok after spending half the day messing with this thing heres what i have... brand new iac, cleaned out housing, brand new tps (ses code is still there), cleaned out the back side of the TB. tried the idle relearn twice. ok the surge is still there... BUT its only there when the car gets up to temp. if its below 210 ~ 220 the surge is not there and the car idles fine. once it gets up to ~220 it wont idle for crap, and tries to cut off. oh and when its up to temp this car is SLOW!!! it will NOT get out of its own way, it must be that code 43 ESC, b/c i can definetly hear what sounds like spark knock when im trying to accelerate. could the ECM simply be bad? jeez this is why i hate computer controlled cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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